Buddhism, psychology

by tenpelNovember 18, 20199:11 pm

On the Road to Healing from Abuse in Buddhism – An Interview with Kata

There is quite some discussion online about abuse in Buddhism and usually it focuses only on the first two of three points which were outlined by Kata as steps for healing:

to see and to accept that abuse happened,
to understand how the abuse happened and the role of everybody involved,
to process on the path by taking responsibility for what you can control and to find solutions to move on.

The third point can be easily misunderstood as “victim blaming”.

To avoid misunderstandings, and to dive deeper into the road of finding healing from abuse we set up an interview and a discussion with Kata highlighting aspects, rarely spoken of online, on the process of recovering from cults or healing from abuse. The goal of this discussion / interview is to help people to better understand these processes and also to see where they are now and what might be ahead of them either as tasks or as opportunities to move on in a healthy, resilient, empowering, healing way.

Please be alerted to the possibility that you might find the conversation difficult or triggering.

Here is the interview (90 minutes):

(Please excuse disturbing noises during the Skype interview.)

For the sake of orientation, what follows are the questions prepared for the interview. Not all of them were covered directly but most of them and some indirectly.

Q: Can you briefly introduce your professional background and why you want to be anonymous?

Q: When we had a skype discussion you outlined three steps regarding the process of recovery.
1) to see and to accept that abused happened,
2) to understand how the abuse happened and the role of everybody involved,
3) to process on the path, to find solutions to move on.

You mentioned in that context also, that for step three you have to go back on the starting point, to take responsibility, but maybe people don’t want that or are not able to do that. Can you explain those three points and especially the third point and why it is important?

Q: The taking of responsibility as the very last step, can only come after a long process of healing as far as I understand it otherwise it might feed the spiral of self-blame and it can block the healing. Moreover, stressing it to survivors who are not at that point can be perceived as “victim blaming”. Can you differentiate and explain these complexities?

Q: Some say, you have to take care not to throw out the baby with the bath water. But what about if there was a lot of bath water but less of an baby and how to find out if there was a baby at all or if it was all a type of fiction?

Moreover, good food (dharma) can be given but been poisoned (like meat can be poisoned) with delusions such as great hopes and expectations for salvation / liberation and fears to do wrong, to fail, e.g. not following the guru’s command / intentions or supposed wisdom, breaking samayas (tantric commitments) or going to hell etc.

To discriminate well the baby from the bath water or the dharma from the poison might be a very difficult and long term task. What are your thoughts on that?

Q: What are your observations regarding the discussion of abuse in Buddhist communities on social media, the blog sphere, the press, responses by Buddhist institutions, whistle blowers, victims / survivors, supporters of survivors, journalists and bloggers who spoke up – what things that are useful can you identify and what things you can identify which are not so useful or potentially or really damaging or destructive?

Q: What would be your benevolent wishes for each of these groups I mentioned?
1) Buddhist communities
2) discussions on social media and blogs
3) press / journalists
4) whistle blowers
5) victims / survivors
6) Buddhist institutions
and 7) – not mentioned above, the perpetrators?

Q: Can you explain what trauma is?

Q: How can one recover from trauma?

Q: Can Buddhism help to recover from trauma and where can Buddhist teachings trigger or deepen trauma?

Q: There is a vast range of approaches that people can take to trauma — from physical healing work to Dharma understanding to Western psychotherapies. What is your understanding of different approaches for healing for different individuals? (This is a question from Joanne Clark.)

Q: What is important for you to share with the listeners which these questions or our discussion didn’t address?

70Comments

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1

Joanne Clark on November 18, 2019 at 10:05 pm
Reply

Thank you to Tenzin and Kata. One aspect of this very good interview that I found particularly helpful is the way it has provided some basic structure to what is often a chaotic and complex journey. Whether or not this exact sequence is the bible of recovery is not so important in my mind as the fact that the three stages Kata outlines are definitely important components of recovery.

For example, in my own case, step two has had to be set aside because I still don’t have an explanation that I am satisfied with to understand fully all that I experienced in regard to lamas that I know now were abusive. Understanding that this lack of understanding has some significance for me has been a helpful outcome for me to listening to this.

In the same way, some ex-Rigpa also struggle to understand their experiences of spiritual growth in the context of the abuse. Holding those two contradictory views is a challenge but those who are willing to do that seem to have some wisdom.
2

Joanne Clark on November 18, 2019 at 10:14 pm
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I also was happy to have the issue of “responsibility” further clarified by Kata. He stressed the meaning “responsible for what one is responsible for.” That distinction and clarity and boundary is often lacking in survivors. In my own case, because of childhood trauma, I developed a deep sense of blame, shame and over-responsibility for everything. Even when faced with abusive situations later on, I took the blame on myself and was unable to see the abuse for what it was.

And when I worked with survivors of sexual assault, everyone of them, without exception, believed they were to blame.

And of course, in Lojong, there was the statement “take all blame on oneself” and bodhisattvas take on the responsibility of everyone’s happiness.

So that word– responsibility– can definitely be triggering! For many survivors, the challenge is to become LESS responsible rather than more responsible.
- 3
  
  tenpel on November 18, 2019 at 11:08 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you Joanne, yes, this point is made very clear by Kata, to only take responsibility for what one is responsible for. And that there are things you are not responsible for and where you cannot take responsibility.
  
  And I agree, if this is misunderstood it feeds the spiral of self-blaming which is so destructive and so persistent.
  
  I met a women, some years ago in Berlin at the doors of the Bodhicharya Centre. She asked if it is a healing centre. I said “No!” but invited her to come in if she wants in and we had a discussion and got to know each other over time. She told me that she is traumatised by sexual abuse in her childhood / adolescence. She said, she is in therapy for the fourth year and gradually coming to the point to understand that she doesn’t have to blame herself, that it was not her fault but the perpetrator’s. She said her therapist is optimistic that she gets more clearer on this and she said, a good sign (from therapeutic perspective) is when she gets angry at the perpetrator because, this is a sign, that she understood that HE did wrong and not she.* When I listened to her I got a bit of a clue how deeply rooted self-blaming can be, and how long it might take to stop just that as a first step on the long road to healing. And then of course, at that stage, Lojong teachings “take all blame on oneself” or “don’t look at the faults in others but look for your own faults and treat them like bad blood, and don’t look for the qualities in yourself but the qualities in others and out of admiration make them your own” becomes POISON for the healing of a person at that stage because it feeds the vicious, self-destructing cycle of self-blaming.
  
  * I don’t think that anger at that point is needed, but its a natural response after having understood that it’s the fault of the perpetrator and not yours. So basically, the anger is a sign of the liberating insight that you don’t have to blame yourself but that it is the perpetrator’s fault. [I wonder now: maybe, first you are stuck in the extreme to blame yourself, so you must get rid of that. Then you blame the perpetrator. Which is a liberation from the very first destructive pattern. After a while, when you are stronger and more stable, a next step can then be to discriminate more clearly what was outside your control and responsibility and what might be in your control and responsibility and then to empower yourself to take responsibility with respect to things you can control on your own side – because you cannot really control the other person or outer circumstances – or if, only to a certain degree (sometimes less, sometimes more).
  Personally this reminds me of complex dependent arising in Buddhism, the coming together of many inner (in your own continuum) and outer causes (outside your continuum) and conditions and many parts that form single wholes etc. I had this understanding of complex dependent arising also in mind when discussing with Kata but didn’t mention it to not spoil the discussion with Buddhist concepts which could have been perceived as bringing in Buddhist ideology.]
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    Kata on November 19, 2019 at 12:36 pm
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    Unfortunately if one’s inherent right to be respected, treated with dignity and unharmed is not nurtured and protected as a child then one rarely will have natural physical and psychological boundaries. This cause them to lack an understanding of what should be accepted and rrejected. They will take on the blame for things which are not their fault. They will feel shame for no logical reason. They do not have the framework to assess risk and danger to their safety and often find themselves in realtiionships and situations which are harmful. Taking responsibility is in some ways regaining our innate self respect and self worth.. It will manifest outwardly in different positive ways. In essence it is a symbolic place within a of us. It is not created by anger or revenge. It is not destructive. It is not an assertion of power due to vulnerability.
    - 5
      
      tenpel on November 19, 2019 at 4:01 pm
      Reply
      
      Thank you, Kata, this is very useful information.
      
      Considering the abuse by some Tibetan lamas I had in mind that due to violence (Sogyal) or sexual abuse in their childhood (for instance Kalu Yangsi Tulku and other tulkus who openly spoke about it) they might not have learned a healthy setting and keeping of boundaries. Their boundary understanding (or lack of understanding) being confused, they can’t really well understand others’ boundaries.
      
      I am not a psychologist, but this understanding came through my work with prisoners – especially (but not exclusively) a pedophile who was sexually abused for many years by his father.
      
      However, I had no clue whatsoever, that not having learned healthy boundaries, this lack of learning then relates back or feeds or is a basis for self-blaming.
      
      Interesting also that you discriminate into “physical and psychological boundaries”.
      
      ****
      
      I have another question: an email dropped in – I didn’t read it yet in full – asking how what we discussed can be applied to children, i.e. men of women, who were abused when they were babies or children.
      
      Two scenarios: a kid or youth needing therapy because of having been abused or an adult who needs therapy and who was abused as a baby or child.
      
      Can you tell us about that?
      - 6
        
        Stardust on November 19, 2019 at 9:41 pm
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        How childhood trauma is stored and remembered is dependent on developmental stages in which the trauma occurs as well. Coping mechanisms are developed to help us cope and survive traumatic experience but as adults do no longer serve us. It might be safe to say that an ongoing dependency relationship within an abusive context will limit the possibility to move forwards on the path of recovery. Yet as adults such situations can become an opportunity to heathily process old traumas and free ourselves from the restricting and crippling effects of them. This was (ironically…) primarily what drew me to buddhism.
      - 7
        
        Kata on November 20, 2019 at 1:09 am
        Reply
        
        Hi Tenpel, I don’t want to comment on these personal cases here for a number of reasons. I am open to answering those questions by email.
        
        The three things we discussed are not so much a method or path to follow. It is not about fitting one’s experience into them. They are more psychological stages that we can experience during recovery, one’s which I have seen people with genuine recovery experience. That being said, there are different reasons why people enter recovery and so different degrees of recovery.
        
        Structures and systems are useful and are needed in certain cases, however there is a danger that it may just become another conditioning factor and I assume that is the last thing some people in these circles need.
        
        8
        
        tenpel on November 20, 2019 at 1:11 am
        Reply
        
        Hi Kata, thank you. I can totally understand that.
    - 9
      
      Joanne Clark on November 19, 2019 at 8:58 pm
      Reply
      
      Well said Kata. And it is true that many who have suffered from lama abuse have come to that situation with abuse in their childhood. And I would definitely say for myself, it was that boundary problem/lack of self-respect that was a central cause for my own troubles with lamas. In my case, the lack of boundary was not physical, but for many it was.
10

Kata on November 18, 2019 at 11:03 pm
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Hi Joanne, the three things I mentioned to Tenzin are just some ideas I came up based upon my experience and work. If they provide structure then good but there can be so many ways people can work with there experiences. The content of our experiences and knowledge is in some ways, constantly evolving. I can easily see how these three things are fluid and can have many layers and great depth This is due to the wonder of being human. Most importantly from my perspective, I do not want these three things or any thing else I discuss, to condition any one in any way.
11

Stardust on November 19, 2019 at 12:53 am
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In the phased approach i am familiar with restoring a sense of safety comes first and also coincides with processing, as far as possible, traumatic experiences, The ‘moving on’ phase follows and also coincides with the former two aspects of trauma therapy.
- 12
  
  tenpel on November 19, 2019 at 1:09 am
  Reply
  
  Yes, safety comes first.
- 13
  
  Joanne Clark on November 19, 2019 at 3:53 am
  Reply
  
  Very good point Stardust. Absolutely safety first– and also, safety often has to be re-established regularly, even if it’s just something like making a plan for escape or protection if something threatening seems to come up.
14

Isabel Leal on November 20, 2019 at 12:14 pm
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Hi Dear Joanne C, I send a message once more, as my gmail some times doesnt work as i would like. I would like to have a email from you, so we can talk shortly, and i see if and how can i do a interesting article about episodes of diferent abuses, then the ones here mentioned, but abuses wish lead me to be sick, homless and pursue by knowing what this organizations are involved in… Would you please be so nice and write me? or if you did already, please forward to me again? Thank
you
- 15
  
  Joanne Clark on November 28, 2019 at 10:05 am
  Reply
  
  Isabel I haven’t received an email from you. You can try again if you like: joanneclark7@hotmail.com
16

thrivingafterthenkt on November 20, 2019 at 10:39 pm
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Thanks both for taking the time to do this.

I must admit that I did find the quick move to point 3 triggering as it reminded me of spiritual abuse from the NKT trolls suggesting I am just mentally ill and blaming others instead of purifying my ‘delusions’.

I also struggled with Kata’s diagnostic language such as ‘mental ilness’ ‘alcoholic’ etc. For the same reason and also it’s just not my preferred language, in my opinion it makes it sounds as if the clinician is completely ‘well’ while the client or ‘subject’ is completely unwell. But then I found the rest of the talk more empathic (and perhaps I was still triggered).

It took me MONTHS to understand I had in fact been abused within a Buddhist cult. I think it takes some people a very long time. We need to do lots of validating this for each other as survivors in my opinion because the gaslighting within the group is so severe and they have no understanding of trauma and silence it completely. Following this I had to go through a stage of anger (healthy righteous anger, in my opinion) during this phase (which isn’t completely over because the attacks continue) I blamed others more and rejected the beliefs of the NKT completely. I see this as a healthy development of my boundaries. Cult involvement destroys your already weak boundaries. Following this, I then felt more able to hold a more balanced view, recognising that my methods for getting my unconscious needs met were unhealthy and unskilful, and that my indoctrination and involvement with the group met some of those needs, like you both say. Sponge and water, I like that analogy.

I now find my earlier videos embarrassing because I am clearly angry, at the teachings, those I now view as abusers, and those who neglected me as a child. People used that to suggest I would be reborn in hell. But I keep the video up because it is authentic and real. (Also I mention the need for therapy quite a lot, so not entirely avoiding responsibility!)

Perhaps once people move to this responsibility stage (although they are never concrete stages) they don’t post online so much, because they don’t need so much validation that YES, it was actually abuse. Meaning we don’t see so much discussion. Perhaps by this point they are working with a therapist or talking to close friends and family only? Or sometimes too triggered to go on abuse related forums or post online?

I think those with a history of childhood emotional neglect and abuse are more easily indoctrinated by spiritual beliefs that suggest that they do not matter, their perception and worries don’t matter, and their feelings and needs don’t matter. This is how a narcissistic parent treats you for example, and so there is a feeling of familiarity. The NKT took my neglect and made the symptoms seem VIRTUOUS when I was actually somewhat dissociated and an expert in self-neglect! These are qualities that cults will convince you are actually positive (martyr yourself, destroy your ego, it’s selfish etc).

Now I am grateful I learnt these lessons in such an extreme way because I cannot deny and avoid it or spiritual bypass it anymore. It nearly did destroy me and nearly has many others and takes quite a while to get to a stage of gratitude especially if the group taught gratitude for suffering and abuse.

I agree with the points made about vulnerabilities, calling them skills you hadn’t developed yet rather than weaknesses is kinder in my opinion.

It’s a delicate balance being compassionate towards your vulnerabilities while recognising that only we can take responsibility for working on them.

I particularly enjoyed hearing Tenzin say ‘fuck you’ haha 😉
- 17
  
  tenpel on November 21, 2019 at 2:20 am
  Reply
  
  Thank you so much for your honesty and sharing your experiences, feelings, thoughts and expertise.
  It could be indeed that those who went through what is outlined as point 3) “don’t post online so much, because they don’t need so much validation that YES, it was actually abuse”
  Those who go online are usually those who seek orientation, who want to make sense of their experiences, who are insecure or wonder what happened, what’s right or wrong, who have just to sort out things for themselves. So it makes sense that point 1) + 2) are more stressed online.
  
  Nice to read, that you feel grateful after having gone through this terrible ordeal because of the lessons you learned.
  
  Thank you and Kata also for the point with the skills/weaknesses …
  BTW, the f…y… is quite embarassing for me and usually not my language, but I wanted to make a point clear. Usually, when I speak of resistance to boundary violating behaviour I use the example: “if someone kicks your knees, you just kick back” but at that point in the discussion I needed a short cut 😉
  
  BTW, could explain us more about the (narcissistic) martyr syndrome?
  - 18
    
    kata on November 22, 2019 at 8:44 am
    Reply
    
    Tenpel,
    Calling it a weakness is an individual choice. I would not call it a weakness, but it does make one vulnerable to deception and malevolence. If we call it a weakness and we are naturally overly self critical then we are really just giving our self a hard time and it is counter productive in terms of .our evolution. If someone has been criticised a lot then they tend to become overly self critical. Using positive language and re framing negative self talk is helpful for some one who has this tendency. But it all depends upon the individual and where they are at on there particular journey. Sometimes its better to call it how you see it. Sometimes it is better to be honest and direct with our selves and with others, obviously lol.
    - 19
      
      tenpel on November 22, 2019 at 11:36 am
      Reply
      
      Thank you. This makes perfectly sense to me.
      
      Btw, I think there is truth in what thrivingafternkt says, we can’t really go beyond being “conditioned” because we are conditioned. This came also to my mind when we had the discussion but I left it aside.
      
      On the other hand I met a person, who was so much full of love and ease and mentally free and stable – a Tibetan – that I and others always felt and still feel, he was “beyond conditioning”, including cultural conditioning. I met none who knew him (he passed away in 2007) who did not agree. Over the years I met so many persons and talked with them and there was none who complained or didn’t feel seen, deeply understood and loved by him.
      
      So maybe it’s possible to get rid of a lot of “conditioning” but it seems to be rare because except him, I didn’t meet another one. Actual, this summer speaking with another Tibetan (master), I bit on steel. His cultural conditioning was so deep that I had to let go discussing abuse, damages of abuse, indoctrination and trauma with him.
      - 20
        
        kata on November 22, 2019 at 12:35 pm
        Reply
        
        In this context, unconditioned means, not brain washed, not indoctrinated, not controlled.
        A lot of misunderstandings of what I say and write.
        
        21
        
        tenpel on November 22, 2019 at 12:38 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you. Good to rectify the terms / terminology.
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  Kata on November 21, 2019 at 12:37 pm
  Reply
  
  I have been through it.
  Stand on your own two feet.
23

thrivingafterthenkt on November 21, 2019 at 6:01 pm
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Stating like it’s an order ‘stand on your own two feet’ is really not something a competent and empathetic therapist who understands trauma would or should say in my opinion? It’s not very therapeutic at all. That’s just a rather black and white and masculine statement of independence to me. Also, if that was directed at me personally, (which it may not have been) then I would like to reply with how dare you tell me what to do. How dare you assume you know what I need at this moment.

This and other things you have said in your talk also makes me question whether you understand cultic abuse and the level of social support, social contact and empathy survivors need in healing from trauma. We have so much more work to do in educating people about this in my opinion. There is no place for orders or black and white statements of independence. You mention several times in your talk your years of experience working therapeutically and yet you say things like this?
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  Kata on November 21, 2019 at 10:27 pm
  Reply
  
  Thrivingafterthenkt,
  I understand how your point of view.
  If you want to you can read some of my past comments about my history. In short, I have been around trauma and abuse all my life.
  No doubt you have been through a lot. I remember what it is like. I used to shake uncontrollably and I had constant night mares of being killed and tortured every night for a six month period. I also could not process individual sense stimuli due to my nervous system being overloaded. I spent seven years one on one working unarmed with people who have murdered their loved ones. One tried to eat his mother. Many had been in psychiatric prison for over thirty years. I was nearly held hostage and killed by one of them as he thought I was an assassin who had come to kill him.
  As a teenager I was bashed by a group of men.
  For 15 years I followed a Buddhist teacher. I was brain wahed and broken down systematically on every level. I lost my ability to think and right and wrong lost their meaning.
  There are other things I have experienced but I don’t wish to share.. I don’t hold myself to be an expert. But I will share what I have learnt and what was taught to me.
  No one has to believe, agree or follow any of it.
  I have recovered from what I have experienced. Recovery is what we are discussing and sharing about. No doubt during this process things will be confronting and hard emotionally.
  - 25
    
    tenpel on November 21, 2019 at 10:37 pm
    Reply
    
    Wow. Thank you.
    Incredible!
    
    Thank both.
    
    I understood your “stand on your own two feet” rather as pointing fingers of a direction to go on the path to healing as well as the result of your own journey.
    
    On the other hand it can be read differently of course.
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  Kata on November 21, 2019 at 11:47 pm
  Reply
  
  Standing on your own two feet means empowering your self. Being a self sufficient, sovereign individual. Knowing your self and bring unconditioned. Being always within your power and manifesting your inherent qualities.
  - 27
    
    Kata on November 22, 2019 at 12:53 am
    Reply
    
    Descent and ascent
28

LS on November 21, 2019 at 11:36 pm
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@kata What I struggle with, when you speak of determining what are you responsible for…. and basically I can only control my own actions of body speech and mind as you said.. that I’m responsible for myself… so when people are totally indoctrinated in a cult and very protective of their ideologies, some of whom you know and care about, and you can clearly see the situation for what it is as an outsider, do you give them access to education (websites, podcasts, meeting with x members etc)? At the risk of being seriously resented, isolated, shut down, ignored, gaslit/gaslighting… which has happened when I asked just general questions and ‘the why’ is not answered. I’m no martyr…. wondering if it’s best to just stay clear.
- 29
  
  Kata on November 22, 2019 at 1:50 am
  Reply
  
  Descent and ascent
- 30
  
  Kata on November 22, 2019 at 1:59 am
  Reply
  
  LS It’s up to the individual to make their own choice about telling others of the dangers.
  Most of my good friends are conditioned. I choose not to talk about this stuff with them because they won’t relate to what I’m saying because they are comfortable with their belief system and have not been effected negatively by it or the religion itself. Some are kind of realised as well.
  
  Acknowledging what we can control is self empowerment.
  
  On a certain level we can control the external world and others. But in the context of recovery we start with out body and mind.
  - 31
    
    LS on November 22, 2019 at 6:22 pm
    Reply
    
    @kata
    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You’re right it is up to the individual.
    
    It’s so easy to slide into conditioning and get numbly comfortable if you have a social support system that is equally comfortable in the group think. There’s such a false sense of security in these groups and I feel people tend to sacrifice their own intuition and critical thought process and sometimes aspects of their value system as that need to feel safe and secure is so great, especially in today’s unstable world – people feel the need to attach themselves to something. I do see negative outcomes from such closed groups that create a strong us/them and insider/outsider mentality not to mention abuse within that is generally kept quiet. Rather than helping to expand tolerance and understanding it does the opposite and often plays on people’s fears and vulnerabilities.
    
    I’m coming to think it’s important to just lay out my truth with those I’m close to and they can accept or reject it. I would hope my true friends would do this for me and likewise I feel it’s good to speak my truth to them and risk any consequences.
    
    All of this has already been said but I’m just thinking out loud.
    - 32
      
      kata on November 23, 2019 at 6:03 am
      Reply
      
      LS,
      Yeah! Cool!
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Kata on November 22, 2019 at 4:20 am
Reply

A bit about being triggered.
It’s important to be aware of our process. First we identify our triggers. Then we train to be aware of the triggered thoughts and emotions. Then we train to be aware of how these thoughts and emotions trigger behaviour.s. When we are aware of this process we can then work with it and change i, if we need to. How do we change it? We can learn to sit with our feelings. When we sit with them we then control our behaviour or our habitual reaction to them. This is how we change habitual tendencies. We can also use critical thinking and analyse the positive and negative aspects of our behaviour. This way we can understand the consequences of both and then make a choice, rather than behaving habitually. So the tools we use are mindfulness and critical thinking. We also may need to process things by talking about them. This is a basic outline of the Feelings Based model of recovery.
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  Stardust on November 22, 2019 at 1:19 pm
  Reply
  
  To be familiar with training in awareness of triggered thoughts and emotions etc is something we may expect anyone who spend a considerable time in buddhist training to be on top of. 😉 The problem arises when the (buddhist) enviroment turns against you, gaslight you betrays you possibly even on a very intimate level abused you. To regain faith in the training, reconnect with its values, your own intrinsic motivation etc can be hard when you are traumatized and suffering from (C) PTSD symtoms.
  A heartfelt be kind to yourselves to all… x
  - 35
    
    tenpel on November 22, 2019 at 1:51 pm
    Reply
    
    Very true.
    
    What do you think, should I lead an interview with a female psychologist about point one and two which Kata outlined?
    
    I had in mind to interview Miriam Anders or Michelle Haslam.
    
    Btw, this month an interview with Michelle will be posted by the Imperfect Buddha Podcast.
    - 36
      
      Stardust on November 23, 2019 at 3:56 am
      Reply
      
      Yes good idea. Maybe an interview combíning the two women’s respective angles would be interesting too.
  - 37
    
    kata on November 23, 2019 at 5:40 am
    Reply
    
    In my experience not many buddhists understand or train in the trigger, thought, emotion and action process I described.
    
    The practice of mindfulness in some recovery models is different. to the one in buddhism, as is the analytical meditation.
    
    I don’t know online link to the Feelings Based therapeutic community model. I can explain it to you if you want. To understand deeply,it its best to go to rehab. LOL
    
    Also to clarify, it is unrelated to the 12 step model.
  - 38
    
    kata on November 23, 2019 at 6:01 am
    Reply
    
    Stardust, yeah. I’ve been through what you described.
    I dealt with it by standing on my own two feet.
    I didn’t seek anything from the out side.
    I was self sufficient.
    
    As I have said before, my healing was done on a symbolic archetypal level.
    
    For me I was lucky. I received direct introduction by an authentic teacher. This kept me connected to myself. I don’t need the teaching, the religion or anyone in it.
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  Stardust on November 22, 2019 at 1:34 pm
  Reply
  
  Hi Kata, would it be possible for you to link to online information about the Feelings Based model you mention? Thank you.
40

thrivingafterthenkt on November 22, 2019 at 11:00 am
Reply

I didn’t say that I don’t believe you have personal trauma. I don’t need you to list your traumas in order to prove this and it’s not a competition about who has the most!

Being self-sufficient is not my path and again this is rather masculine language. ‘Being unconditioned’ also is rather black and white. We are conditioned by many things and can’t just ‘be unconditioned’.

Sorry but I don’t think a 12 step recovery style model should be applied to cult survivors. This talk would be more compassionate in my opinion as part of a longer piece which includes more focus on steps 1 and 2, seeking social support, recognising the dilemma survivors face in finding safe and healing social interactions given their trust issues. On its own I’m afraid I just found it comes across like you’re bored of reading people blaming the groups and fancied lecturing them about taking responsibility.
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  kata on November 22, 2019 at 12:09 pm
  Reply
  
  Ithrivingafterthekt,
  
  Thanks for your feedback.
  I will have a look at what you said and if I find it of benefit I will let you know.
  I am not offended by anything you have said and I don’t feel judged.
  I don’t feel any need to critique your statements, enter into debate with you or try to defend or justify anything I have said .
  I don’t know you so I can’t really form any judgement about who you are as a person.
- 42
  
  Joanne Clark on November 22, 2019 at 10:33 pm
  Reply
  
  @thrivingafterthenkt, I think your statements are a bit overly strong and I disagree with your portrayal of Kata’s perspective on this. I think he has presented all of it in a thoughtful manner and not imposed it on anyone as the only true perspective or technique. He has validated every alternate view presented here, aware that these are painful subjects for many of us and that we will find some of it difficult and edgy. He has disclosed his own painful experiences as well, exposing himself personally.
  
  I agree with you that compassion is an essential component of these discussions and the recovery process– so let’s be compassionate!
  - 43
    
    kata on November 23, 2019 at 6:40 am
    Reply
    
    Joanne,
    As you and Tenzin know, I left this blog a while ago because I did not feel it was appropriate to talk about abuse in a forum like this and I was concerned that it may negatively impact people suffering from abuse and trauma when they read some of the comments.
    
    I said to Tenzin from what I have seen most of the discussion online is about the the examples of abuse and the effects of them. Their was little discussion about recovery. So We chatted online and he asked me to write an article about responsibility and recovery related stuff. I thought about I for awhile and need up saying I didn’t want to do it because I have personally moved on from my abuse and trauma.
    But I read the blog one day and it seemed it may be beneficial for some if we did do the interview. So we did it.
    
    You are right, I have put myself out there and shared personal stuff here. I don’t do it for any personal reasons. I did it because I know what is like to go through what many are going through.
    I knew that by doing the interview I had a responsibility to reply to questions about the content here. I also knew that what I said may be critiqued and that I would receive personal criticism.
    I know how social media works. People say things here that they would not normally say face to face. Most personal criticism is based on assumptions and projections. It doesn’t bother me if I get unfairly criticised or used as a target for someones anger on social media.
    But doing that to me face to face is another story, with another out come.
    
    Im open to answering any questions about what I said in the interview. I’m also open to discuss things related to my personal experience.
    Like I said I don’t consider my self to be an expert and I’m not here to promote myself in anyway. I apologise for some of the typing and grammar mistakes in my posts.
    - 44
      
      tenpel on November 23, 2019 at 1:07 pm
      Reply
      
      Thank you Kata. Thank you for having changed your mind, agreeing to do the interview, thank you for sharing your very personal (horrible) experiences here so openly, for sharing your understanding and to give replies and comments.
      
      Thank you Joanne for the reminder to be compassionate but as Kata says and as he expected it can trigger very much what he says.
      
      Just in general, I think when you are triggered you cannot really be compassionate. You’re lost in the processes that started after having been triggered. Therefore, I think, the environment/ people around that person must be compassionate and patient with the person who was triggered. And this might be difficult if the environment is made of people who are traumatised too and can be triggered too.
      - 45
        
        kata on November 23, 2019 at 1:43 pm
        Reply
        
        Tenzin,
        Being triggered has gross and subtle aspects.
        If one has trained them selves thoroughly in the trigger, thought emotion, behaviour process it is possible to recognise the thought and emotion and to not react to it. If one has mastered it then the thoughts and emotions cease as they arise. One can still act compassionately even though they are triggered. Once someone develops an awareness of their process and trains themselves then this can be achieved. A big part of it is expressing the process verbally as it happens. It is like giving a play by play commentary to someone as the process unfolds. This is really beneficial because the person can get feedback and can be challenged about wether they really experienced the thoughts and emotions or wether they intellectualised the process and used mindfulness as a way to avoid the thoughts and emotions. Those who recover master this process, which means they master themselves. They are in control. Eventually the process itself goes away, more than likely because we have processed everything fully.I have seen this happen to many people.
        
        46
        
        tenpel on November 23, 2019 at 11:03 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you Kata. This makes totally sense to me.
  - 47
    
    Stardust on November 23, 2019 at 11:27 am
    Reply
    
    It is a fairly straightforward perspective/observation concerning phases that is presented here, by a male, which seems somewhat relevant, and based on a Feelings Based model. (awating refernce to it) Kata touched on this blog’s evolvement which i share to be a good point. I think a video by Michelle focussing more on self compassion and self soothing would be really interesting too.
    - 48
      
      kata on November 23, 2019 at 1:04 pm
      Reply
      
      Stardust,
      The three points I described in the interview are not based on the Feelings Based model.
      
      I dont think many people here understood what I was talking about in the interview..This could be because they don’t have any familiarity with it and do not have a foundation to work from.
      - 49
        
        Stardust on November 23, 2019 at 2:36 pm
        Reply
        
        To clarify: I concluded from your comment nr 32 there was a link between your observation of these three phases and something you called a ”Feelings Based model” and I had asked for a link to some more information on that. Apparently that is unlikely to happen. 😉
        
        50
        
        kata on November 24, 2019 at 12:28 pm
        Reply
        
        I wasn’t making any link, sorry if it was not clear. Triggers are a part of what I described to Tenzin in the interview and they are a part of the feelings based model. the process used on the feelings based model can be used in the three step stuff but it does not necessarily have to be, the feelings based approach is more about changing habitual tendencies and the three step approach is about a psychological evolution Working with the thoughts and emotions in the three step approach can be done in a number of ways where as the feelings based model is a very specific and systematic method. Trauma and abuse etc is processed in the feelings based model but this is not the goal of it. where as the three things I discussed is specific to processing and moving on from the trauma and abuse.
        
        I will say again that the three steps I described are not so much a path of recovery, they are psychological states or symbols.
        
        51
        
        Stardust on November 24, 2019 at 11:32 pm
        
        I am glad you found your way to sufficiently work with trauma and abuse Kata. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
        
        52
        
        kata on November 24, 2019 at 12:35 pm
        Reply
        
        Yes, it is unlikely to happen because I can’t find any in depth articles it. but if you are interested then you could contact a drug and alcohol rehabilitation centre which uses the therapeutic community feelings based model, which I briefly described. I wrote a programme based on it for a buddhist rehab centre recently.
        
        if we are working with mind in any way then we are fundamentally working with thoughts, emotions and behaviours. the processes may differ but the material stays the same.
  - 53
    
    thrivingafterthenkt on November 24, 2019 at 1:04 pm
    Reply
    
    I’m sharing that I do not agree, and how it made me feel when self sufficiency and total independence were made out to be superior. Kata did state ‘be self sufficient’ ‘stand on your own two feet’ and ‘be unconditioned’ and I experienced this as rather authoritarian, dismissive and black and white. I am an ex member of a narcissistic personality cult with an authoritarian male leader so….this kind of language reminds me too much of emotional invalidation and ideas of not needing others, dealing with things entirely in your own mind.
    
    Kata states he needed no one in his recovery, that he did not seek anything from the outside. Most ex cult members need significant support and I don’t think it’s appropriate to suggest self sufficiency is somehow bette. I believe that’s what Kata did. It’s not uncompassionate for me to share how I experienced it. Also, I don’t appreciate you telling me to be more compassionate.
    - 54
      
      kata on November 24, 2019 at 9:40 pm
      Reply
      
      I understand where you are coming from.
    - 55
      
      Stardust on November 25, 2019 at 10:56 pm
      Reply
      
      Thrivingafterthenkt.
      Self sufficiency, self expression, (self) compassion, strength, vulnerability and connection can all go hand in hand though, can’t they? I do feel the trigger warnings where valid. I was uncomfortable with the term self responsibility, as if we are not self responsible when we are accepting abuse happened and finding out why… as if self responsibility does only occur after that. But maybe i misunderstood.
      - 56
        
        tenpel on November 26, 2019 at 1:11 am
        Reply
        
        To go out of a cult is self responsible. To take care of oneself after having left a cult and take measures to secure oneself is also self responsibility … So, I agree, step one and two of the model include self responsibility, isn’t it? And yes, self responsibility can go along with being wounded, triggered, vulnerable, compassionate, strength, empathy …
57

thrivingafterthenkt on November 22, 2019 at 9:50 pm
Reply

Tenzin I am still keen to do a video on self compassion and self-soothing from a Buddhist and western psychology perspective, if you’d be up for that. I am currently incorporating Miriam Anders findings into my website. Although one of her papers is only in German, the one about psychotherapeutic approaches (the one I would really like to read). If Miriam has the time to comment or do an interview even better!!
- 58
  
  tenpel on November 23, 2019 at 4:36 am
  Reply
  
  Ok. Let’s do that. I read today into doing podcast and ordered a microphone and installed a good recording software for Skype (though Skype allows recording since 2018 anyway). I would interview you on these matters and as done with Kata define an aim of the discussion, prepare questions and send it to you. We might dive deeper than the prepared questions and let it unfold openly.
  I will ask Miriam Anders if she agrees with an interview, asking her basic questions about what trauma is etc, ways of healing, what she found out about Tibetans’ understandings of trauma, cross cultural issues (topics we discussed here already) key points of her research etc.
  
  Her German paper exists in English, she wrote: “The translation is linked here https://www.en.transtibmed.ethnologie.uni-muenchen.de/publications/index.html
  It can be downloaded at this page (still needs proofreading, in a few weeks I hope to be able to upload a better version of it). Anders, A.I.M. (2019). Psychological impact of power abuse in buddhist groups and essential aspects in psychotherapeutic interventions for the affected individuals”
59

kata on November 23, 2019 at 10:16 pm
Reply

If anyone wants to ask me questions feel free to contact me at 2plus2equalsfour@tutanota.com
thank you.
60

kata on November 27, 2019 at 7:11 am
Reply

Seems I either wasn’t clear enough or you guys don’t understand what I was talking about. It comes down to where people are at. I can’t see much point discussing the interview in this kind of forum because its not a good way to communicate. I thought about doing a follow up discussion to explain the points I brought up but it will have the same result.

I’m glad I put it out there in the interview because I know there are people who listened and connected on that level. All I want to say is that not many people will want to here or relate to the perspective I presented. But it needed to be done.To understand where I’m coming from in terms of the three things I discussed, I don’t blame anyone for what happened to me. I own it all 100%. Remember it all happened when I was an adult. I was in full charge of my faculties. I don’t make any excuses.
To deepen an understanding of why I don’t blame anyone you can research the view of dzogchen, that is kadak/lhundup non dual and in particular the three inherent characteristics of the nature of mind, being, sal, dang and rolba.

So bye all. I won’t be commenting here anymore. I came back to do the interview now its time to move forward and beyond.
Wishing you all the power and wisdom that is inherently yours.
- 61
  
  tenpel on November 27, 2019 at 10:47 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you so much Kata for sharing your insights, experiences, knowledge, time and perspectives. I wish you also well and that all your spiritual wishes will be fulfilled. Maha Metta 🙏
- 62
  
  Stardust on November 28, 2019 at 10:31 pm
  Reply
  
  I am sorry you felt you where either not clear enough or us guys don’t understand Kata. 😉
63

tenpel on November 28, 2019 at 1:56 pm
Reply

@all. Though I never made an interview as a recording like that with kata and put it online as a recording (I made interviews via Skype and transcribed it), seeing some of the fallacies (disturbing Skype noises for instance), I checked what can be improved and learned about Podcasting. I read some articles about podcasting, bought some basic equipment and decided to run in the future a podcast. The podcast will likely replace the blog in the long run or will be in combination with the blog – a bit similar to the Imperfect Buddha Podcast: https://imperfectbuddha.com/imperfect-buddha-podcast/ which interviewed Michelle already and who interviewed me in the past.

My first interview will be with Miriam Anders. So if you have questions or things you would like to ask her, please send them to me or post it here. If you have suggestions for other interviewees, pls let me know. (I had in mind Tahlia or Damchö la for instance but later also interviews about topics such as the two truths with competent professors or practitioners or an interview with Werner Vogd on his Rigpa research or research on Buddhism in the West …)

Funnily, some people use my recordings of Buddhist courses I gave already as a podcast. They told me they listen to while driving in cars or while ironing, sitting in the subway etc – during daily activities. I noted that but didn’t pay attention to it because I prefer to listen attentively when its about dharma or also in general and not while daily activities – I find this too distractive and I think this also builds up habits of being distracted – but now I realise for people who partook my courses podcasting the recordings has been always there and all of them described it as being useful for them. So it might be natural to change from writing to podcasting … I will see. New Year, new beginning …
- 64
  
  tenpel on November 28, 2019 at 3:43 pm
  Reply
  
  Karin Geier made an interview with Michelle Haslam on the New Kadampa Tradition as part of her podcast series on cults, On Belief: A Podcast About Cults.
  https://fireside.fm/s/QufKjGkm+cGVFj_n8
65

Adamo on December 8, 2019 at 10:16 pm
Reply

It might help a little bit to the victims that the Dalai Lama now in public says that he wants to end the tibetan reincarnation system due to being part of the tibetan feudal system.

Here a link in german, I am sure its available online in english as well

https://buddhismus-aktuell.de/meldungen/dalai-lama-moechte-reinkarnations-system-der-lamas-abschaffen.html
66

Fearn on January 3, 2020 at 8:30 am
Reply

This interview has been mind blowing and summarized perfectly what was a horrendous 2019 partly due to experiences within Triratna in the Netherlands. Thank you so much for this. Due to parental abandonment in early childhood I jumped to stage 3 (victim blaming interpretation) immediately e.g. what did I do to provoke this person’s violent communication (self blame, it’s my fault)? Over the last year I have moved to stages one and two, realizing that it was abuse.

I have come to realize that my “provocation” (self blame in toxic sage 3) was leaving a brief, 6 week involvement with a psychologically abusive and deeply manipulative person (stage 1). His feelings of rejection triggered his already existing anger (stage 2, understanding the abuse). One female Order Member has played a role as abuse enabler, using various tactics to keep me quiet (stage 2, understanding the role people played).

Eventually I reported the harmer’s behavior to the relevant safeguarding team, having to go around the abuse enabler and going through the gut wrenching process of accepting that I needed to leave the sangha. This interview has perfectly summarized my multiple and many thought processes in 2019 and now in 2020. It’s such a relief to hear others pretty much describe word for word my thought processes.

What has been liberating is hear you talk about stage 3 because that is the one I have had to analyze the most. Whilst I was victim blamed by some in the sangha, I no longer blame myself.

The experience was a serious wake up call as to the choices I have been making in terms of who I chose to spend my time with. Without any self blame, I understand that I have played a role in being drawn to narcissists. I don’t blame myself but understand it to be a result of the relationship patterns that socialized me.

I saw a brilliant talk the other day that discussed unmet need. It stated that if you have, say, unmet need from a parent, you may subconsciously chose emotionally unavailable people, because sub-consciously you’re trying to get what you didn’t get from your parent from your lover or partner. I knew I was sub-consciously recreating patterns but I didn’t know why. To my mind stage 3 pretty much describes a psychological process known as objects theory.

I have experienced the full range of stage 3 from self blame and victim blaming to recognizing I was drawn to someone with negative energy due to my primary and secondary socialization (without self blame) and that his personality type resulted in his violent communication.

I have not dated for a year because this last person was a realization that something within me really need to change and that was practicing self love rather than self abandonment. Without the positive aspect of stage 3, I would not be where I am now – which is understanding self abandonment (a term I have only recently come across) and in identifying it, to practice self meta/ self care/self love instead.

To realize that I was self abandoning (healthy part of stage 3) has been a deeply significant part of my personal development in the last 12 months enabling behavior changes (which is the self responsibility I believe is being discussed). To finally understand what self abandonment actually means and how it fully plays out, is a positive aspect of self awakening. Recognition of self abandonment within itself is an achievement never mind the consequential behavior changes. To my mind, stage 3 isn’t victim blaming but helping victims of abuse to take preventive measures so the harm or abuse doesn’t happen again.

I hope this explanation, or at least my interpretation through personal experience, helps stage 3 to be understood better.

That said, within all of this, context is very important – that harmers have access to already vulnerable people they would not necessarily have access to in the non-Buddhist world. I would not normally have gotten close with the person I did. It was precisely because of context e.g. Triratna, Buddhism, sangha that I ignored the red flags and there was an extra layer of assumed trust that I may not normally have with others. I was also in a very vulnerable mind set at the time, so it was a specific stage of my life.

The beginning of this talk was excellent because it has helped me to stop feeling so silly (so smatterings of self blame here) for having been vulnerable at the time of manipulation (for having been vulnerable in the first place). Understanding I was incredibly vulnerable then and that there is nothing wrong with being vulnerable is empowering for me. I have compassion for the me that had recently received some terrible news. In accepting something potentially unflattering about myself (e.g. vulnerability or nievity can be seen as weakness,) I have been able to see what the vulnerability factors were e.g. shock, which helps to stop with the self blame.It’s not my fault that I was vulnerable. I feel stronger now.

Thank you so much for this talk.
- 67
  
  tenpel on January 3, 2020 at 8:57 am
  Reply
  
  Wonderful. Thank you for your thoughts and feedback. My heartfelt good wishes for your journey!
  Maha Metta – big love.
- 68
  
  Stardust on January 5, 2020 at 1:37 am
  Reply
  
  Thank you for sharing your experience Fearn. It reflects very poorly on the dutch order, sg team, sg measures and internal dynamics that you felt you had to leave and it is not the first concerning account i’ve seen involving recent complaints regarding triratna netherlands.
  - 69
    
    Stardust on January 13, 2020 at 11:25 am
    Reply
    
    Interesting talk on attachment injuries and attachment trauma by Alan Robarge, attachment focused, trauma informed psychotherapist and relationship coach.
70

tenpel on May 7, 2020 at 7:43 am
Reply

Here is a new Tibetan voice

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On the Road to Healing from Abuse in Buddhism – An Interview with Kata

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