Buddhism, New Kadampa Tradition, Religion

by tenpelMay 30, 201310:28 am

Meditation On University Campus :: New Kadampa Tradition Luring Students Under A New Label: “Modern Buddhist Society”

Be aware at your university not to easily be drawn into a cultish group offering meditation to “let go stress, find inner peace and openness” that is very skilled in ad, in self-promoting and communication but that is mainly fishing for new ‘recruits’. As INFORM’s Searching poster warns:

CHECK IT OUT FIRST

Not all paths are equally safe. Some movements promise solutions to life’s problems, but can leave you with more problems than you started with. They may:

Be dishonest or secretive about their true nature

Demand much more of your time than you expected

Cost you a lot of money and leave you in debt

Harm your relationships with your family and friends

Make you emotionally dependent on the group, so you find it difficult to leave

At York University, the highly controversial New Kadampa Tradition (NKT-IKBU) promote themselves on campus and the University’s website using a new label that hides the identity. The new label being used is “Modern Buddhist Society“, stating:

Modern Buddhism Society

modernbuddhismsociety@yusu.org The Modern Buddhist Society offers bi-weekly meditation classes based on an accessible and modern presentation of Buddha’s teachings which emphasize practical ways to improve our inner peace and happiness in daily life. These classes last an hour and take place in ATB/042 every Monday 7-8pm and in the upper Quiet Place on Thursdays, are open to people of all (or no) faiths, and include a short teaching on finding inner peace and a simple guided meditation. If there is interest the society may arrange trips to the Buddhist Centre in Pocklington or further afield. Send us an email and we’ll keep you updated on what’s going on. Also, like our facebook page! 🙂 — https://www.facebook.com/YorkModernBuddhismSociety

The facebook page of this group states:

About

We hold a weekly meditation class on Mondays at 7-8pm – now in ATB/042 – please come along! 🙂

Mission

We are a society at the University of York dedicated to helping all students (and tutors!) at the University find inner peace and happiness within the busyness of student living… We aim to help you let go of stress, find joy and meaning, and solve all your problems of daily life.

Description

The Modern Buddhist Society offers meditation classes based on an accessible and modern presentation of Buddha’s teachings which emphasize practical ways to improve our inner peace and happiness in daily life. These classes last an hour and take place in ATB/042 every Monday 7-8pm and in the upper Quiet Place on Thursdays (time this term to be confirmed..), are open to people of all (or no) faiths, and include a short teaching on finding inner peace, a simple guided meditation, and questions and answers. No prior experience of meditation is necessary – no matter what your belief, you will definitely receive benefit from these simple and relaxed meditation classes!

General information

We are connected with the local Buddhist centre in Pocklington – check it out here — www.madhyamaka.org

The NKT have also set a group up in Cambridge at a Cambridge college, stating:

About

Let go of stress, enjoy inner peace, find more joy and meaning in your life. Meditation classes: Mondays, 7-8.15pm, Robinson College, Auditorium Lounge. Everyone welcome!

Mission

The Cambridge Modern Buddhism Society is dedicated to helping you to let go of stress, enjoy inner peace and find more joy and meaning in your life. This society is for everyone, not just Buddhists! Whether an atheist or whatever your belief, you can definitely receive benefit from this class.

Description

You are invited to join our weekly meditation classes on Mondays, 7-8.15pm, in the Auditorium Lounge of Robinson College. No prior experience of meditation is necessary, everyone welcome. The classes consist of a guided meditation and a talk, with questions and answers. – Find openness and stillness within – Fill your life with joy – Solve your daily problems through meditation – Discover methods to accomplish the highest goals

General information

This meditation class a branch class of the Heruka Buddhist Centre in London. To find out more, please visit www.meditateinlondon.org.uk/cambridge

The identity of this Cambridge group as being NKT is not that much hidden, as that of the York University. However, the promises of finding “openness”, “stillness”, “let go of stress, enjoy inner peace”, “Fill your life with joy” etc. won’t be fulfilled if you become a member of this group because the missionary drive and dynamics of this group are going to make you – highly likely – a very very busy person, who will exploit the own resources up to total exhaustion. I and other former NKT followers have experienced what INFORM is warning in their poster, that is:

NKT are dishonest or secretive about their true nature (e.g. NKT hid the low opinion, aversion, and hate against the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism in general from me; they split me gradually away from main stream Buddhism and isolated me mentally from the world)
NKT demanded much more of my time than I expected (NKT manipulated me so that I didn’t do the final exams at my university but only worked for the group for many years without any payment)
NKT cost me all of my savings and left me in debt
NKT harmed my relationships with my family and friends
NKT made me emotionally dependent on the group, and I found it extremely difficult to leave

The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT-IKBU) is one of the most successful and the most controversial Western Buddhist organisation that exploits the naivety of people and the good reputation of Buddhism to get people into their group finally splitting them away from main stream Buddhism and often splitting them away also from their family and friends. There are reasons why there is a forum “New Kadampa Survivors” with now 1,186 members. Within indo-Tibetan Buddhism there is no similar development.

The research institution INFORM, based at the London School of Economics, received in the last years more inquiries about the New Kadampa Tradition [aka Kadampa Buddhism / Modern Buddhism] than about Scientology. Best is you contact INFORM before you follow any NKT group. There is a great amount of testimonies by former members that cause concern, and just in January 2013 the first insider account about this group has been published in an academic publication, which I highly recommend to read before you commit yourself to NKT or any of their meditation groups. In INFORM’s leaflet “Extremism on University Campuses” from 2011 the New Kadampa Tradition is explicitly mentioned three times in three different contexts.

Online Testimonials

Reflections of a former New Kadampa (NKT) practitioner 2013/01/19
Geshe Kelsang Calls Seattle Non-NKT Practitioners Dogs 2012/10/11
Cartoon NKT Survivor Experiences & New Discussions 2011/04/11
A life in the day of the New Kadampa Tradition 2011/07/06
Experiences with the New Kadampa Tradition and Kelsang Gyatso 2011/01/07
Eighteen Months Since Leaving The New Kadampa Tradition 2009/11/03

171Comments

Add yours

1

The Devils Advocate on May 30, 2013 at 2:54 pm
Reply

Any contributors here who are concerned about this issue are free to contact the relevant student union coordinator. Details are available from most universities student union websites
2

John Swainson on May 30, 2013 at 5:39 pm
Reply

The names of things do not really matter. FWBO changed to Triratna. Is it still the same organisation?
However, it is useful to know what guise is being used so people can make their own dfecisions.
If the NKT is being peddled within universities as The Modern Buddhist Society then it is useful to know it’s origins.

‘A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet’ claimed Juliet in Shakespeare’s play. He also wrote ‘something is rotten in the state of Denmark’. in Hamlet. If there is something rotten to be found, it would not matter what it is called.
3

Lineageholder on May 30, 2013 at 5:41 pm
Reply

More sectarian discrimination. Very sad.
- 4
  
  tenpel on May 30, 2013 at 6:33 pm
  Reply
  
  LH, sectarianism is basically when someone is attached to the own tradition and has hostility towards others, and acts based on it.
  
  NKT is clearly sectarian. However, to point out a sectarian group that misleads people and tries by all means to make them total devoted members, who finally work for free all of the time, to get all of their money and life time etc., splits them away from main stream Buddhism, the Three Jewels and true masters, and installs feelings of fear and guilt in them which makes it mentally almost impossible to leave the group, to warn about such a group and its destructive dynamics, is not sectarianism for me. Maybe for you 😉
  
  Here a master about sectarianism, maybe it is of help:
  http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/nonsect.htm
  - 5
    
    Lineageholder on May 30, 2013 at 9:22 pm
    Reply
    
    TP, you are showing clear hostility towards the NKT and its followers – that’s sectarian. Sectarianism is badly treating someone or a group of people who have a different view to your own because you regard your own view as correct and superior. You obviously regard your own Teachers and tradition as superior as well, for example, claiming that you are mainstream whereas the lamrim teachings that are given by both our traditions are the actual mainstream.
    
    I find it quite strange that the Dalai Lama accuses Shugden practitioners of being sectarian and then instigates a sectarian schism in his own tradition, encourages his followers to be sectarian, etc. The hypocrisy is not lost on me.
    - 6
      
      tenpel on May 31, 2013 at 4:59 pm
      Reply
      
      slightly modified comment (wrote the previous one in a hurry at the airport)
      
      How do you know that I am hostile against NKT? Can you prove this in any way?
      
      Just because I see a danger for the spiritual, mental and material well-being for people who follow NKT and because I am frank about this + giving reasons why I am concerned (in the post I use my own experiences and refer to those of others) does not make me a sectarian. Or were the Buddha a sectarian when he discouraged his monks to follow Devadatta?
      
      I just see the dangers for people falling pray to NKT. I experienced the harm myself and others experienced it. To speak and warn others about NKT doesn’t need a feeling of superiority nor does this require that I regard my newly found teachers and traditions superior, it just needs some clarity and maybe some courage to speak about this in public. You can condemn that, ok. But all of this doesn’t make me a sectarian 😉
      
      The Dalai Lama bases his judgement of Shugden being sectarian on the fact that Shugden punishes those with violent actions who read or touch even other tradition’s books, e.g.Nyingma texts. What can be more sectarian than this? I also feared to read and to touch other schools’ books when I was in NKT, me was told “we only read pure Dharma”, “Geshe-las books are pure Dharma”. The Dalai Lama or Dzogchen books were not considered as “pure Dharma”.
      
      You can not convince me.
      - 7
        
        Lineageholder on June 1, 2013 at 9:27 am
        Reply
        
        I believe that you believe that you are well motivated and I know you are trying to help but sectarianism can be justified in any number of ways. When Je Tsongkhapa established the Ganden tradition he too received a lot of opposition from the other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. They didn’t understand that he had a good motivation and was trying to reframe Dharma in a way to benefit the people of that time. We tend to rebel against change.
        
        It’s a shame that people who regard themselves as Buddhist cannot live in peaceful coexistence without sectarian rivalry.
- 8
  
  John Swainson on May 30, 2013 at 6:37 pm
  Reply
  
  sectarian discrimination….we only teach the NKT version …modern buddhism…without reference to other schools…
  - 9
    
    Lineageholder on May 30, 2013 at 9:24 pm
    Reply
    
    It’s not sectarian to follow only one tradition whilst keeping a respectful view towards the others.
    - 10
      
      fleadle on May 31, 2013 at 11:10 pm
      Reply
      
      Dear OH,a respectful view of other Traditions is not kept. In my days add a NKT member often other traditions are ridiculed put down and laughed at. I was constantly warned not to read other traditions or be influenced by others till eventually you find yourself looking down on others and having an air of smug superiority that is horrible.
      - 11
        
        Lineageholder on June 1, 2013 at 11:41 am
        Reply
        
        It’s wrong to ridicule other traditions and that’s not in line with Geshe-la’s view. In Modern Buddhism he says:
        
        “Today we can see many different forms of Buddhism, such as Zen and Theravada Buddhism. All these different aspects are practices of Buddha’s teachings, and all are equally precious; they are just different presentations.”
        
        12
        
        tenpel on June 1, 2013 at 12:32 pm
        Reply
        
        What he says in public is different of what he says internally. In his ordination talk from 1999 for instance he makes clear that Tibetan Buddhism is “very degenerated” and that his tradition is pure. How is this not ridiculing other traditions (Tibetan Buddhism has Sakya, Kagyue, Nyingma and Gelug) and praising the own as supreme? You can always quote something nice from Geshe-la but often it does not withstand reality how he acts and speaks.
        
        To give another example, in the public he says his students could also have other teachers than him but if a close student does so, he gets very upset with this person and doesn’t accept this at all. There are many cases of what he says in public is different from how he acts behind the public scenery.
        
        13
        
        fleadle on June 1, 2013 at 12:42 pm
        Reply
        
        Yes GKG is very clever at not saying anything in public that can be thrown back at him but in private it is very different. Sectarianism is rife throughout the NKT, especially by the constant reminder that this is the right path, other paths are inferior as is sung in WFJ. All the brain washing in the NKT is positive affirmations so that when heard it sounds very reasonable but soon you stop thinking for yourself, your only way of debating anything is through quotes until your so certain about everything you don’t hear other’s, you just close down.When I left I was shocked by how closed to others I became, how I no longer even knew what I thought just what KG said, that scared me.Buddha taught us to know ourselves not to know everything someone else says but ourselves, our mind, or heart and to accept ourselves in order to accept others.KG doesn’t encourage or teach this.He wants obedient slaves not free thinking individuals.
        
        14
        
        The Devils Advocate on June 1, 2013 at 7:02 pm
        Reply
        
        Geshe la says…………What is this, the thoughts of Chairman Mao?
        
        15
        
        fleadle on September 6, 2013 at 7:52 am
        Reply
        
        I only just noticed this reply LH so I am sorry for not replying sooner. Kelsang Gyatso is very careful with what he says in public but he has on many occasions talked about the degeneration of other traditions and if the NKT is a pure Ganden lineage have you ever wondered why there are no other Tibetan teachersiI it and why he never mentions respect for other teachersapartfrom his main guru. Also why leave out the vinaya teachings taught by JTK if he his following that lineage. Why can we not read other Buddhist texts these are genuine questions I have that perhaps you can answer as no one else in theNKT seems to. My teacher who was a senior and well respected monk often laughed about other traditions he was never corrected why if it’s so bad to do it?
16

The Devils Advocate on May 31, 2013 at 8:30 am
Reply

Sorry LH but I think you need to check your somewhat deluded and self serving definition of sectarianism…..while youre at it, check up on your history, short and long term
Or are you thinking the public will see your comment and be duped by their own ignorance of the NKTs sectarian shenanigans?
And BTW the term ‘Modern Buddhism’ is an implicit sectarian condemnation of your ‘archaic’ forebears, without whom you would not be here
Not to worry: the tiniest bit of research will show your cult for exactly what it is-even Googling NKT and ‘cult’ produces a plethora of damning evidence
- 17
  
  Lineageholder on May 31, 2013 at 2:08 pm
  Reply
  
  It’s all in your mind, The Devil’s Advocate 🙂
18

The Devils Advocate on May 31, 2013 at 2:30 pm
Reply

Isnt that an abusers first line of defense?
19

john6747 on May 31, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Reply

If I see an advert at University for a Modern Buddhism Society I would expect to find Modern Buddhism discussed in all its forms.
20

john6747 on May 31, 2013 at 3:46 pm
Reply

When decidng upon a form of spiritualty that is for you, it is worth considering your needs, expectations and so on. Even when going on holiday we take advice about the resort and the company with which we will travel. After the holiday we may be tempted to give feedback.

Consider groups like New Kadampa Survivors, or this site as being a forum to air one’s grievances after choosing the NKT as our spiritual travel company.

New Kadampa Truth functioned for some time giving the company’s view of how all the complaints were unfounded, but that ceased to function as the NKT decided that no response was a better tactic.

In these days of Health and Safety we are encouraged to do a risk assessment. All that sites like this are doing is pointing out potential risk. If the pro’s and con’s are weighed up beforehand then there is lless chance of the risk becoming a reality.

When the phrase ‘its all in your mind’ appears, I begin to wonder where else can it be, unless there is an objective reality out there?
21

fleadle on May 31, 2013 at 10:40 pm
Reply

Since escaping the NKT I have looked at many other traditions and books and I quickly realised just how sectarian this group is. They are the only tradition that have an ex member’s support group that says it all to me. Also the fact they hide behind the title modern Buddhism says a lot too. When reading other teachers what has stood out is how they make it clear self acceptance is vital to learning to love and open up to others but in the NKT self abuse is encouraged, the more of a martyr you are the more your held up to be a Bodhisattvas. I remember my so called loving teacher telling me “your nothing and no one” the lack of response from NKT is simply their way of trying to seem above such meaningless conversions. The truth is they can not defend the harm they have caused so many. Since leaving the NKT I have slowly learnt the real meaning of Buddha’s teachings, acceptance for self and others this is the opposite of what the NKT Teaches. I am saddened by the damage this cult has caused my friends, the joy it drained from so many, people who were happier before the NKT taught them how meaningless their lives were. I earn as many as I can about the NKT. I have hope that when GKG dies so will the poison be spreads. I pray my old friend’s that no longer want to speak to me because I spoke out, will see the truth and realise GKG doesn’t hold the truth, it is within all of our hearts and Buddha simply pointed the way. Well done Tenzin for spreading the truth.
- 22
  
  Lineageholder on June 1, 2013 at 11:50 am
  Reply
  
  I’m sorry Fleadle, but you are seriously misrepresenting Geshe-la’s teachings. For example, you say
  
  “Since leaving the NKT I have slowly learnt the real meaning of Buddha’s teachings, acceptance for self and others this is the opposite of what the NKT Teaches.”
  
  Can you quote anything from Geshe Kelsang’s books that teaches that one should not accept oneself or others? His teachings are traditonal Buddhism, even his critics acknowledge this. What you are saying is the complete opposite of what these books teach. Because you claim to be ex-NKT, people will believe this falsehood and this distorts the image that people have of Kadam Dharma.
  - 23
    
    TDA on June 1, 2013 at 12:40 pm
    Reply
    
    Traditional? I thought it was modern?..
  - 24
    
    tenpel on June 1, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    Reply
    
    I wouldn’t go so far to claim that his teachings are traditional. They are based on the understanding of a very conservative Gelug wing of interpreting the Gelug teachings / Tsongkhapa but they are also superficial and often don’t go into depths and leave too many things open. For instance he has by now never explained the Vinaya properly. He even goes so far to claim the ordination lineage of NKT comes from the perfection of wisdom sutras or Geshe Potowa. But such a thing just doesn’t exist.
    
    geshe-la is a master of indirect speech. he doesn’t say; “don’t read other books” he just stresses how pure his own books are and that nothing else were needed than he and his books. He can even say “read other books” but if close students do so and recommend them during a study program then they are quickly removed from power. NKT is a classical cultish system with a lot of unspoken rules and boundaries that are transmitted indirectly, you cannot easily quote them because they are transmitted between the lines, indirect speech and by what is not said or what is stressed etc. It is therefore very difficult to pin point certain things in NKT because there is so much duplicity and double speech that makes it hard to pin point all details. Nevertheless they exist and they function.
    - 25
      
      Lineageholder on June 1, 2013 at 5:02 pm
      Reply
      
      Tenpel, if you’re going to criticise, at least do so on a valid basis, something that Geshe-la has actually said. Your criticisms are projection. For example, you said
      
      ‘geshe-la is a master of indirect speech. he doesn’t say; “don’t read other books” he just stresses how pure his own books are and that nothing else were needed than he and his books.’
      
      Geshe-la has never said that his books are pure and that we don’t need anything else. If he said this, please say when and where. Geshe-la says that the Dharma is pure because he received it from his Spiritual Guide and that it is a special presentation, which it is. He has never said not to read other Dharma books and only rely on him. Just like Fleadle, you are misrepresenting that which you seek to criticise.
      - 26
        
        fleadle on June 1, 2013 at 8:18 pm
        Reply
        
        Dear LH, he said this all the time. You don’t need to look at other paths your only confuse yourself. And in private he had got very angry at those who question him.He only had his books in NKT centres this doesn’t happen in other centre’s.in the Zen dojo I attend they stock many different books GKG is the only one who just sells his own. I don’t expect a reply you tend to stop answering when the questions get too tough. You will not see the truth until you are outside I knew this were wrong for years because I saw so many unhappy people including myself. After I escaped I noticed just how lost I had become,I didn’t know what I thought any more all I could do is repeat what KG wrote,I didn’t think for myself.I hope one-day you see the truth. Your Guru only cares about himself, he doesn’t care about his students.I saw how he tested those students who questioned him and it wasn’t pretty.He is a narcissist. I pray you find a teacher one day who truly cares about you and your happiness.
        
        27
        
        tenpel on June 1, 2013 at 8:43 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you fleadle.
        
        I think we can finish the discussion with your comment.
        Otherwise we enter into ceaseless circling.
        
        28
        
        fleadle on June 1, 2013 at 9:25 pm
        
        It is not possible for those within a cult to understand that is what they are in and how much harm is being done. You are promised happiness and we all want that then your self esteem becomes so damaged over time you believe your unhappiness is your fault. I like what Charlotte Joko says(a western Zen teacher) this life could be it, this day, this moment, what if there is no pure land, no after life that is what we should assume and just live for today. In the NKT I spent a lot of time feeling I was too bad to every bed a Buddha, now I just try to live day by day and if I die and all I’ve been is a good mother I’ll die happy because I know I helped one living being in the NKT I helped no-one not even my self.LH had a job to do, he had something to defend maybe one day he’ll wonder why it needs so much defending when it is apparently so special and good.
      - 29
        
        tenpel on June 1, 2013 at 8:24 pm
        Reply
        
        You won’t find a direct quote, indeed, that says “my books are very pure” he says: Tibetan Buddhism is very degenerated but you are lucky to have a pure tradition [which means his NKT organisation]. Then he stresses that “this lineage” [which means his NKT] is “a very pure and very special lineage” – he said this different times in his public talks during the summer festival. Then he says that: we must be very careful not to mix traditions or that our tradition [which means his NKT] looses its essential purity. This is what he says in public. Behind the scene he was very keen to get his close students at Manjushri Institute to remove books from their shelves that were not written by him, insisting that all what they need are in his books and that this is pure Dharma. – Never forget that it was Kelsang Gyatso who ordered to remove all other books from the great Manjushri Library (see Kay or BBC Unholy Row) The students understand indirectly that the other books are a danger, wrong or impure or not as pure as his books, and that his books are pure other books either impure or a danger. Then those students transmit this understanding by similar indirect means, how I experienced it: My NKT Resident Teacher when she saw me walking through the NKT Centre with a Dalai Lama book and a Dzogchen book said: “We study here pure Dharma!” and she looked very badly on those books, than during the teachings she mentions “Geshe-las books are pure Dharma. It is important not to mix his pure Dharma with other traditions. If this pure Dharma looses its essential purity it harms millions of sentient beings.”
        
        This NKT Teacher was strongly inspired by the NKT successor Gen Thubten who established this fundamentalism in NKT and acted on behalf of Kelsang Gyatso. Nowadays locally there is sometimes a bit of a tolerance be it because the local resident teacher is a bit more tolerant or because he or she knows that a newbee being to early presented with NKT’s internal views might “loose faith”, so there is a pseudo tolerance or a tolerance which is based on the individual approach of a local NKT teacher. However, I observed when a NKT teacher of the foundation program recommend to read a non-Geshe-la book she was removed in between one week from her position of GP teacher. Also from such removals of GP teachers people will learn “better not to recommend non-Geshe-la books”.
        
        Other people reported when they talked about a Dalai Lama book in the NKT centre suddenly everybody got very silent, just saying nothing. And the person was a bit shocked by this sudden silence, and asked himself: ‘What did I wrong?’ Also such means indicate indirectly an unwished behaviour and establish a hidden rule: here we don’t talk about Dalai Lama books.
        
        The NKT is a very tricky and distorted system operating in the realm of semi-truths, and duplicity, as I said, it is sometimes difficult to pin point it because what Geshe la says in public is often acceptable but what he does behind the scene is in contradiction to what he says in public. But even if you check carefully statements from his books you find the tendency to manipulate the people to rely only on him and his book, his tradition and his dharma protector.
        
        Here a taste of his masterful messages which can be found in his books.
        
        Statements by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso which probably invite a narrow-minded perspective and blind faith include:
        
        “Experience shows that realizations come from deep, unchanging faith, and that this faith comes as a result of following one tradition purely – relying upon one Teacher, practising only his teachings, and following his Dharma Protector. If we mix traditions many obstacles arise and it takes a long time for us to attain realizations.”[17]
        
        According to Geshe Kelsang spiritual success is based on
        
        “unwavering faith and confidence” and “it is essential to eliminate those doubts that interfere with the development of pure faith.”[18] Faith he explains is “a naturally virtuous mind that functions mainly to oppose the perception of faults in its observed object.”[19] “In particular, our ability to rely completely upon our spiritual guide depends upon having faith based on conviction that our spiritual guide is a buddha.”[20] and “We should be like a wise blind person who relies totally upon one trusted guide instead of attempting to follow a number of people at once.”[21]
        
        Regarding sectarianism he states:
        
        “It is mixing different religious traditions that causes sectarianism”[22] , and he discourages the reader of doing so, stating “studying non-religious subjects is less of an obstacle to our spiritual progress than studying religions of different traditions.”[22] “The practices taught by one teacher will differ from those taught by another, and if we try to combine them we will become confused, develop doubts, and lose direction.”[23] “The ugly, unfortunate result of not understanding pure Dharma and of following misleading teachings that pretend to be pure Dharma is sectarianism. This is one of the greatest hindrances to the flourishing of Dharma, especially in the West. Anything that gives rise to such an evil, destructive mind should be eliminated as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.”[24]
        
        [17] Kelsang Gyatso: Great Treasury of Merit: A Commentary to the Practice of Offering to the Spiritual Guide, 1992, p 31
        
        [18] Kelsang Gyatso: Understanding the Mind, 1993, p 75
        
        [19] Kelsang Gyatso: Joyful Path of Good Fortune, 1990, p 107
        
        [20] Kelsang Gyatso: Joyful Path of Good Fortune, 1990, p 106
        
        [21] Kelsang Gyatso: Guide to Dakini Land: The Highest Yoga Tantra Practice of Buddha Vajrayogini, 1996: p 18
        
        [22] Kelsang Gyatso, Understanding the Mind, 1993, p 167
        
        [23] Kelsang Gyatso, Understanding the Mind, 1993, p 166
        
        [24] Kelsang, Clear Light of Bliss, 1982, p 154
        
        In his non public ordination talk he deprecates others to only praise his own NKT. He says:
        
        Nowadays the practice of the Vinaya has almost died out, not only the Vinaya but Buddhism in general is degenerating, including the Tibetan Gelug tradition. I am not the only one who says this, many other Lamas have said the same. Over two hundred years ago a Gelugpa lama called Gungtang Jampelyang wrote a praise to Lama Tsongkhapa in which he said ‘Now, although the Ganden doctrine is increasing materially, its practice is seriously degenerating. This makes me very sad.’ Every year it is degenerating and becoming weaker, while political activities are increasing. This is very sad.
        
        However here in the west we are very fortunate. For us this is not a degenerate but an increasing time. During an increasing time the Dharma is flourishing, it is very easy to gain realizations, and there are many pure practitioners and realized beings. When Buddhadharma first began to flourish there were many realized beings, both Yogis and Yoginis. Then gradually they became less and less common, until now it is very rare to find a pure practitioner.
        
        Since we are living in an increasing time we need to do everything very purely and correctly. At the start of an increasing time, the Dharma will not degenerate quickly. If we followed the example of the Tibetan tradition, of degenerate times, it would be impossible for us to make any progress. The Dharma itself is of course the same but the presentation and way of practising are different., For this reason I am always encouraging you to have confidence that you can definitely gain higher realizations and become an enlightened being. I believe this is possible.
        
        https://thedorjeshugdengroup.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/2july-99ordination2.doc
        
        This summery of details and other parts of the NKT system of teaching, acting behind the scene different from what has been said in public (duplicity) + a number of unspoken yet well understood hidden or secret rules that are not directly verbally expressed form an understanding in a NKT follower that:
        1) others are impure
        2) we are pure
        3) geshe-las books are pure dharma
        4) only geshe-las book are enough to attain enlightenment
        5) others’ Dharma books are potentially dangerous because a) they could delude the pure tradition of NKT, b) they can make me confused, c) they can decrease my faith or d) to read other Dharma books is an expression of a lack of faith (in NKT it was also said: “who has pure faith will find all what he needs in Geshe-las books.”), e) maybe they are impure?
        
        For instance – just as an example of many there are – when Gen Kelsang Nyima the resident teacher of Dipankara Centre Berlin was asked about the English translation of Je Tsongkhapa’s Lam Rim Chen Mo, he said something like: ‘well the translators, it is not clear what their motivation is, and also it is dedicated to the Dalai Lama …’ this is just enough in NKT for a “faithful follower” to not to touch or to read this book, because as a faithful NKT you know at least for sure Geshe-las books are from pure intention and pure lineage, no danger to read them …
        
        30
        
        Lineageholder on June 2, 2013 at 7:39 am
        Reply
        
        I can see how easily you misinterpret what people say. I also understand that you had an unpleasant experience with Dechen which is unfortunate. When Geshe-la talks about the lineage, he’s talking about the lineage from Buddha Shakyamuni to Trijang Rinpoche and now to him, he’s not claiming anything special for himself, he’s just maintaining the lineage that his Teacher gave him. This is in contrast to the Dalai Lama who is making up his own lineage by taking out things he doesn’t like and mixing Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings with other traditions such as Dzogchen. I do respect the pure traditions of Buddhism that have developed in this world though, such as the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, Zen and Theravada Buddhism, etc, and the unique qualities of those teachings should be preserved. You’ve completely misunderstood the meaning of sectarianism. It is not sectarian to want to practise one tradition only – to think otherwise is just the brainwashing of mixing religion and politics. It’s also not wrong to say that one’s own tradition is pure – it doesn’t imply that others are impure!
        
        The teachings in the NKT are both traditional and modern in that the meaning of the teachings have not been altered but the way they are presented is very suitable for people with busy lives who are encouraged to transform everything into Dharma practice, just as Milarepa said “I have no need of books, whatever I see serves to develop my mind”. Lamrim is a special practical presentation of Buddha’s teachings made even more practical in the book Modern Buddhism where the essence of all the meditations of Sutra and Tantra is presented. What I find beautiful about this text is it is concise, clear and practical. I’m really not going to justify the benefits of this text beyond saying this – we don’t have to justify our tradition to you and you have no faith in it anyway.
        
        This is a largely pointless discussion as no common understanding is going to emerge. You have your views and I have mine, but I see gross distortions in both Fleadle and your posts which seem more obvious than ever. I don’t like to see you misrepresent something pure and holy in such a way. I also understand that posting here is also throwing petrol on the fire to some extent. There is no constructive discussion so I’m out of here. It would be better to focus on Dharma than other people’s perceived faults and mistakes, I don’t see where that is going to get you – it’s a waste of precious human life. Adios!
        
        31
        
        john6747 on June 2, 2013 at 6:20 pm
        
        Lineageholder, do you know why New Kadampa Truth has ceased to function?
        
        32
        
        fleadle on June 3, 2013 at 4:21 pm
        
        Because it’s an oxymoron?
  - 33
    
    fleadle on June 1, 2013 at 12:57 pm
    Reply
    
    LH,I don’t claim to be ex NKT,I was in the tradition for 10 years,I even ordained. The main focus of many of the teachings is over coming self-cherishing, all our problems come from self cherishing, of you think of yourself your being selfish. It leaves you beating yourself up for everything, your promised happiness by KG which is stupid, but if your unhappy it’s your fault. Other Buddhist books teach that meditation is about knowing yourself, but NKT push the happiness drug. During my ten years I saw so many happy, confident people lose all their joy, being told only NKT matters, until your so closed off and isolated you can no longer relate to others. You say it’s traditional Buddhism but then it’s modern which is it. All KG did was very it translated into English, he left out big chunks of teachings, he doesn’t understand westerners NKT is just about promoting him, I’ve seen his angry side when the cutemonk act slips. He also hid sexual abuse in the tradition, he has never apologised for his actions or for the actions of his teachers that alone is disgusting.The NKT goes on about helping all living beings but in truth it’s all just about KG.
34

The Devils Advocate on June 1, 2013 at 9:52 am
Reply

When we speak of modern buddhism, of what do we speak? According to Kelsang Gyatso, his NKT Buddhism represents traditional Gelug Buddhism without the politics. That places Modern Buddhism in the 15th century. Apart from that, the only ‘new’ addition to NKT Buddhism is the worship of Shug**
,an addition to Gelug Buddhism which arose in the 17th century.Finally, we have the new system of ordination, founded in the 20th century and at least in part because Kelsang was unable to establish the necessary quorum of sangha required to bestow genuine Buddhist ordination in accord with the Buddhist monastic code of the Vinaya
Lineageholder (for it is he/she), please explain what else is ‘modern’ about Kadampa Buddhism
- 35
  
  The Devils Advocate on June 1, 2013 at 10:34 am
  Reply
  
  EARLY, NON POLITICAL GELUG BUDDHISM
  
  ‘In 1577 Sonam Gyatso, who was considered to be the third incarnation of Gyalwa Gendün Drup, heart student of the great scholar and reformer Tsongkhapa (1357–1419),formed an alliance with the then most powerful Mongol leader, Altan Khan. As a result, Sonam Gyatso was designated as “Dalai” (a translation into Mongolian of the name Gyatso, meaning ocean),and Gyalwa Gendün Drup and Gendun Gyatso were posthumously recognized as the 1st and 2nd Dalai Lamas.
  Sonam Gyatso was very active in proselytizing among the Mongols, and the Gelug tradition was to become the main spiritual orientations of the Mongols in the ensuing centuries. This brought the Gelugpas powerful patrons who were to propel them to pre-eminence in Tibet.The Gelug-Mongol alliance was further strengthened as after Sonam Gyatso’s death, his incarnation was found to be Altan Khan’s great-grandson’.
36

The Devils Advocate on June 1, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Reply

Well Ligpa Holder? Where is your response Please define the distinguishing features of Modern Buddhism as well as the reasoning behind your contradictory usage of the terms ‘modern’ and ‘traditional’ when referring to the same object at different times..
- 37
  
  TDA on June 2, 2013 at 6:37 am
  Reply
  
  The suggestion that we end the discussion here conveniently let’s Ligpa Holder off the hook I asked what the distinguishing characteristics of Modern Buddhism were and why LH simultaneously referred to NKT. teachings as modern and traditional to clarify whether what the NKT were now selling was actually modern or whether the whole decision to rebrand was just a cynical advertising move, where the goods on sale remained the same but the packaging was changed to trick consumers. I think we deserve some clarification from LH. On this issue since silence only confirms the latter hypothesis. So….. Where are you LH? You’ve gone rather quiet
- 38
  
  The Devils Advocate on June 2, 2013 at 9:22 am
  Reply
  
  Also , in Understanding the Mind, KG states“The practices taught by one teacher will differ from those taught by another, and if we try to combine them we will become confused, develop doubts, and lose direction.”
  What then of the study of the tenets of various schools in order to develop the understanding of the highest philosophical view. Surely the great Geshe would have studied the tenets of the Vaibashikas and the Vijnanavada on his journey to the exalted state of Third Buddhahood?? Doesnt his own assertion above mean he is actually confused, doubt filled and lacking direction?
  Again, what of the incomparable Tzongkapa, on whose teachings the NKT claim theirs are based? Didnt Tzongkapa study with numerous masters of the Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya traditions before formulating his own particular views? Is KG suggesting Tzongkapa was actually confused, doubt filled and lacking direction? I think we should be told. There seems to be something of a contradiction here, and one that could easily be construed as a means of ensuring ones followers do not look elsewhere. perhaps for reasons other than those professed?
  - 39
    
    fleadle on June 2, 2013 at 6:56 pm
    Reply
    
    GKG is far from stupid, he knows of his students read around they will see how much he has left out of his tradition, how narcissistic his path is. People may start thinking for themselves.He once told my teacher the perfect disciple is like a dog they just do what you tell them to. Enough said I think.
40

john6747 on June 2, 2013 at 6:57 am
Reply

http://www.tricycle.com/reviews/how-buddhist-modern-buddhism?page=0,1
41

john6747 on June 2, 2013 at 7:01 am
Reply

http://www.tricycle.com/reviews/how-buddhist-modern-buddhism?page=0,0
42

john6747 on June 2, 2013 at 7:19 am
Reply

This is the NKT definition.

What is modern Buddhism?

Modern Buddhism is the application of the Buddhist paths of compassion and wisdom to modern daily life. It is an international movement without affiliations to any specific country or culture founded by the contemporary Buddhist master Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

Modern Buddhism brings the ancient wisdom of Buddha into the modern world free from any cultural trappings and shows how to integrate Buddhist meditation and other practices into our busy lives.
- 43
  
  The Devils Advocate on June 2, 2013 at 2:52 pm
  Reply
  
  So its basically old school Buddhism then but,instead of doing the prayers in Tibetan, sing them in English to guitar music. What a lie, what a con. How drab Other than that, no difference
  
  “the contemporary Buddhist master Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso” ”Contemporary”? SO why the Tibetan robes and title? Like the label modern, its all about maximizing saleability, for all beings of course
  
  Still no answer from LH-must be embarrasing to be a merebrick in a pyramid sales scheme
  - 44
    
    fleadle on June 3, 2013 at 4:13 pm
    Reply
    
    Drab is a good wOrd, since leaving NKT and reading Pema Chodrons books Charlotte Joko I realised what KG’ s books lack, compassion,understanding, basically a human touch, they are very dry and technical. It reflects the author well.
    - 45
      
      tenpel on June 3, 2013 at 5:56 pm
      Reply
      
      drab. maybe that’s why I liked them in east germany everything was so gray 😉
- 46
  
  tenpel on June 3, 2013 at 2:22 pm
  Reply
  
  Modern Buddhism is the application of the Buddhist paths of compassion and wisdom to modern daily life. It is an international movement without affiliations to any specific country or culture founded by the contemporary Buddhist master Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
  
  It’s a bit funny, Kelsang Gyatso founded NKT, then he founded the International Kadampa Buddhist Union (IKBU) which is nothing else than NKT. Now he establishes “Modern Buddhism” as an “international movement” which is nothing else – again – than the NKT. Then of course there is also “Kadampa Buddhism” which is nothing else than NKT. It appears that from time to time the organisation which sees it self as new and as a “tradition” must find a new label. The “tradition” changes quickly … [it’s names].
  - 47
    
    tenpel on June 3, 2013 at 2:32 pm
    Reply
    
    PS: The struggle for identity of NKT could be a topic for a new research paper, I think. I tried to keep the section of the former Wikipedia article up-to-date so that people don’t get lost in NKT’s self-descriptive terminology: http://info-buddhism.com/new_kadampa_tradition.html#The_identity_of_the_NKT
    
    Maybe we can expect in the future that Modern Buddhism Hotels, Modern Buddhism Coffee Shops, Modern Buddhism Teachers etc. pop up, the Modern Buddhism Society already exists.
  - 48
    
    fleadle on June 3, 2013 at 9:20 pm
    Reply
    
    KG doesn’t understand westerners let alone modern westerners. He and his tradition encourages such unhealthy psychology, such as martyrdom, self abuse, low self confidence. This is either because he has poor understanding or he understands is too well and uses that against us.What is sad is how much his students defend him yet he cares nothing for them. I’ve seen how he treats those who devoted much of their life to him but when they start questioning a dragon is released. My heart goes out to all those disciples who he is conning,I hope they see the truth sooner rather than later.
    - 49
      
      tenpel on June 3, 2013 at 11:17 pm
      Reply
      
      I agree with you.
      I think he does neither understand Westerners, nor does he understand “Modern Buddhism”. He lets every student in second go down – in a very rude, harsh and hurting manner – if such a student dares to disagree with him.
  - 50
    
    Carol McQuire on September 5, 2013 at 11:43 pm
    Reply
    
    I would say that the ‘Modern’ in the NKT sense effectively only means that they are a more highly edited version of the same ‘teachings’ by Gyatso. The book ‘Modern Buddhism’ is a potted version of all of the NKT Dharma, including Heruka practice (22 books into only one book!!) So, these teachings are ‘traditional’ in the sense that they were originally part of the great Tibetan Buddhist culture as transmitted to Gyatso, without any of the extensive trainings of Tantric college or even the full Geshe training but they are ‘modern’ as they have been reduced to ‘what modern people need’, a dumbing down… For instance, the ‘traditional’ robes (‘from Tsongkhapa – is this even true???) are worn but without any training in the Vinaya (to make the ordination ‘modern’ and to cover up the lack of a fully sangha!). Added to this ‘summary’ of the teachings are comments and distortions by Gyatso (such as the definition of faith and of sectarianism). In all, this ‘modern’ method ends up functioning as a desecration and diminution of the original teachings. One of the greatest pleasures in reading/listening to Dharma outside the NKT is finding all the answers to the questions I had – finding out all the ‘missing bits’ from all the editing – and seeing the complexity and sophistication of the Dharma. I am reminded of the tale of the two frogs – one of whom died upon seeing the enormity of the sea (which he had not believed in) in comparison to the size of the pond he lived in.
    - 51
      
      fleadle on September 6, 2013 at 7:32 am
      Reply
      
      I have found since leaving and starting to read other books that I am shocked at how much Kelsang Gyatso’s leaves out and how he misrepresents so many of the teachings. What is also very surprising to me is that I know a few NKT people who read other traditions and even visited different traditions yet they didn’t see any problems. It shows how deep the brain washing goes. I do though understand why people fight seeing the truth, because the NKT becomes your whole world and your social life so when you leave you lose a lot, for me it has meant a long grieving process that has yet to end and a feeling of utter loneliness. I am however finding myself and enjoying exploring what I truly believe but it can feel lonely on the outside. Maybe this is one of the great human failings a need to belong. The NKT provide a family but you find out often far too late it is a dysfunctional and abusive family but if you are alone or feel vulnerable you will take it so I completely get why so many stay but also why so many leave.
    - 52
      
      tenpel on September 6, 2013 at 8:21 am
      Reply
      
      yes the example of the frog hits the NKT story on its head:
      
      Patrul Rinpoche in — The Words of My Perfect Teacher:
      
      Teachers like the frog that lived in a well
      
      Teachers of this kind lack any special qualities that might distinguish them from ordinary people. But other people put them up on a pedestal in blind faith, without examining them at all. Puffed up with pride by the profits and honours they receive, they are themselves quite unaware of the true qualities of great teachers. They are like the frog that lived in a well.
      
      One day an old frog that had always lived in a well was visited by another frog who lived on the shores of the great ocean.
      
      “Where are you from?” asked the frog that lived in the well.
      “I come from the great ocean,” the visitor replied.
      “How big is this ocean of yours?” asked the frog from the well.
      “It is enormous,” replied the other.
      “About a quarter the size of my well?” he asked.
      “Oh! Bigger than that!” exclaimed the frog from the ocean.
      “Half the size, then?”
      “No, bigger than that!”
      “So—the same size as the well?”
      “No, no! Much, much bigger!”
      “That’s impossible!” said the frog who lived in the well. “This I have to see for myself.”
      So the two frogs set off together, and the story goes that when the frog who lived in the well saw the ocean, he fainted, his head split apart, and he died.
      
      With respect to the Vinaya and robes. The Tibetan lineage is the Mulasarvastavada lineage. Kelsang Gyatso gives an ordination called Rabjung “in-between” which means you are neither a lay nor an ordained person. Such a person is allowed to wear the monastic robes but not the yellow upper robe(!). Such a person, a Rabjung, is not a member of the monastic order and can therefore not partake in Sojong/Uposadha. A Rabjung should strive to receive the Getsul ordination, a Rabjung has no real vows as a Getsul (novice) or Gelong (fully ordained one) has. The Sojong in NKT is a self-written somewhat but not the real Sojong as performed in the Mulasarvastavada lineage or in the three main monastic seats of the Gelug school (Sera, Drepung, Ganden). For a real Sojong you need at least four Gelongs (fully ordained ones). In NKT only Kelsang Gyatso and the Indian Samten or Samden are fully ordained. The Vinaya is totally missing. Kelsang Gyatso does not even explain the Rabjung promises properly (when you have transgressed a promise, when it is still intact etc) and he refuses to accept and to teach that Buddha gave permission that monastics can give back the robes / their vows (or Rabjng promises). This wrong attitude by Kelsang Gyatso inflicts an undue pressure on the NKT Rabjungs, a pressure that will rather mislead some of them by nourishing an attitude to overextend their capacity (or not to respect it) which finally will lead some of them to break their promises because the door, which the Buddha taught, to exit properly the monastic life when there is no other way to maintain the promises / vows has been closed in NKT. Kelsang Gyatso makes it even a major crime to give back the robes by banning former NKT Rabjung monks and nuns for one year to attend any NKT centre, indicating or claiming they had done an extremely evil deed. However, all of these are Kelsang Gyatso’s inventions, and they don’t accord with the Buddha’s Vinaya or Je Tsongkhpa’s tradition – except that in the Tibetan tradition this type of Rabjung ordination (mainly given to kids or persons who aspire to become really ordained ones (Getsul/Gelong) exists).
      
      Here are some articles on this topic:
      
      Ordination Vows · NKT Ordination
      
      Offering Back Buddhist Vows 2012/06/26
      
      NKT Ordination – Clarifying More Misunderstandings 2011/06/22
      
      Update: New Kadampa Tradition – Ordination 2011/04/18
      
      Are NKT monks and nuns authentic? July 27, 2008
      
      How important is the Vinaya? 2008/07/25
      - 53
        
        fleadle on September 15, 2013 at 8:50 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you for this information Tenpel,I find this a cruel act by KG. I have seen the pain caused those who disrobe. I had a friend who was ordained in the NKT, she had a long term disease when she disrobed she was told she would get very sick and when she died she would go to he’ll. When she did indeed get sicker(A natural progression of her disease) I believe she felt very guilty and unhappy blaming herself because shedisrobed. Where is the love and kindness? The first Buddhist book I read was by the Dalai lama it was the beauty, of the love and kindness that struck me. In a world of darkness I felt Buddhism shone a light.It gave me hope. The NKT turns out the light and steals hope, this is heart breaking because people will come and trust it because it is Buddhism and they won’t get real Dharma just twisted Weirs by a ego maniac. Sad so sad.
54

john6747 on June 2, 2013 at 7:38 am
Reply

Meanwhile, somewhere in the future people are checking in at a special centre for life enhancing training appropriate to the modern world.
55

laughingdaquini on June 2, 2013 at 7:55 am
Reply

As usual, when “Lineage Holder” (ha ha) is faced with the uncomfortable truth and questions he/she just cannot answer, (s)he goes very queit, because there is no answer, other than feeble lines like “it’s all in your mind”! It amazes me that (s)he can keep up his half-hearted, half-witted atempts to win arguments on here in the face of the huge mountain of damning and incontravertible evidence provided. Ho ho ho. Must be hiding in his/her nest somewhere, licking its wounds with its fingers in its ears, going “Nooot listeninggg…na na na na na” Oh well poor thing 😉
56

TDA on June 3, 2013 at 3:44 am
Reply

LH you’re living in the shadow of someone else’s dream. It doesn’t matter a flying f£££ what the DL. Does: it’s about what you do. So, instead of parroting the party line of someone else hate filled propaganda , follow the path.
As to all this nonsense about perfectly combining the paths of sutra and tantra in a way totally appropriate to modern needs, don’t you think that’s what all Buddhist masters do? the only difference is that elsewhere these masters spend time with their disciples and get to know them, so they can prescribe the appropriate medicine. For you, you get the same medicine as all the others, KGs books, the ‘one size fits all’ Buddhism of Kelsang Gyatso, the ‘Teach yourself enlightenment through reading my books’ guru. How sad- to live your life in the shadow of someone else’s angry and delude dream. I hope you one day break out of your propaganda and hate filled fantasy and get your feet back on the way-may your god go with you
57

The Devils Advocate on June 3, 2013 at 9:26 am
Reply

“When Geshe-la talks about the lineage, he’s talking about the lineage from Buddha Shakyamuni to Trijang Rinpoche and now to him, he’s not claiming anything special for himself, he’s just maintaining the lineage that his Teacher gave him.”
This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the term ‘lineage holder’
When someone ‘holds a lineage, it means a master has transmitted all the oral transmissions, permissions and initiations he has received within a sect/tradition on to a disciple of the next generation. That is the transmission of lineage
In a speech to ordinands in the early 2000s, KG told disciples he had actually received only a few tantric teachings and that most of his experiences came through reading books.
Setting aside the huge faults in such a statement, what this reveals is that KG does not hold the Gelug lineage; what he holds is Pabongkas Shug*** lineage. It is only in this way that he can be described as a ‘lineage holder’-but that makes all of us who have received an initiation or oral transmission lineage holders too-except we are not so arrogant as to make such a claim
58

John Swainson on June 3, 2013 at 6:37 pm
Reply

‘His (GKG) profound personal experience of the entire path to enlightenment is revealed in the twenty-one authoritative books on Buddhism and meditation he has written.’

He has experienced the entire path to enlightenment?
59

john6747 on June 4, 2013 at 6:48 am
Reply

http://www.meditationinmaryland.org/Temple-project-news

Another Kadampa school
- 60
  
  tenpel on June 4, 2013 at 7:33 am
  Reply
  
  They learn from the Christian missionaries. If you want to establish your religions win the mind and hearts of the young people. The younger they are the better you can influence and control them. That’s why they won’t build a home for elderly people (except it brings a lot of money). That NKT follows the example of Christian missionaries is not my idea it was said and recommended by Kelsang Gyatso himself. An early New Moon NKT magazine reported in an article how NKT proselytised Spain by learning first from Christian missionaries and then applying their tactics to get their foot into Spain. What NKT applies as a tactic with the primary schools is what Christian missionaries do in Tibet:
  
  Targeting the young is key. When a South Korean missionary asked Tenzin which Tibetans needed help, he suggested the elderly. According to Tenzin, the Korean replied: “Not old people — [we want] children.”
  
  http://world.time.com/2013/03/08/good-lord-in-china-christian-fundamentalists-target-tibetans/
  
  It might be good to put all former NKT Full Moon magazines online [if any body has a copy of one or some (or even the files), please contact me]. The NKT was so boastful and blind that they didn’t realise how self-revealing their own magazine Full Moon was. I remember many articles from those magazines … e.g. two 18/19 year old boys who were interviewed as NKT ‘Buddhist teachers’ about teaching Buddhism to others in that young age. Their reply was: if you have faith in Geshe-la you can do that. [underlying meaning: you don’t need any qualification you only need ‘faith’.]
  - 61
    
    john6747 on June 4, 2013 at 8:49 am
    Reply
    
    Verse 14. – Suffer [the] little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me. He speaks as though the infants were ready and eager to come to him, if they were not prevented. He thus intimates the truth that, though incompetent to undo, stand God’s blessing, children were not incompetent to receive it. There was no natural impediment to bar the way. Unconscious intents, under the Mosaic dispensation, were admitted to the privileges of the Jewish Church by the rite of circumcision; in Christ’s kingdom analogous mercies were to be extended to them. From this passage has been derived a cogent argument for infant baptism, because Christ herein showed, not only that tender age and immaturity of reason put no obstacle in the way of his blessing, but that children were the standard by which fitness for his kingdom was to be tested. For of such is the kingdom of heaven. They who would enter Christ’s kingdom must be pure, simple, obedient, as little children (comp. Matthew 18:3). That is why he says, “of such,” not “of these,” intimating that it is not to the age, but to the disposition and character, that he refers. Some, not so suitably, confine the saying to such as are dedicated to God in baptism. It is well said that what children now are is God’s work; what they shall be hereafter is their own.
  - 62
    
    fleadle on June 5, 2013 at 8:29 pm
    Reply
    
    Funny I got told the only qualification I needed to teach was to have read the books before my students! Great qualification!
    - 63
      
      TDA on June 6, 2013 at 7:09 am
      Reply
      
      An old favorite of mine is ” Has studied Buddhism for several years” , a standard line of many NKT teachers advertising blurb”several”.? Probably the most insipid line there could be- they don’t put a couple or a few but they mean the same thing as ‘ several’ in this case. I heard of one poor girl who was new to the NKT , ordained and was teaching within a few months. She was described as ‘an experienced practitioner’ My heart aches at this abuse of the innocent
      - 64
        
        fleadle on June 6, 2013 at 10:17 pm
        Reply
        
        I had been in 6 months when I started teaching, you feel privileged to be asked so even though it felt crazy I trusted my teacher, but he was just another brainwashed sap like me! All KG cares about is getting more students, more money, more power, and at others expense. I pray for those still stuck in that awful cult.
        
        65
        
        tenpel on June 7, 2013 at 6:41 pm
        Reply
        
        Yes, everybody is just used for his “empire building” …
        
        66
        
        john6747 on June 8, 2013 at 7:39 am
        Reply
        
        After ‘studying for many years’ a student is disappointed..
        
        C:\Users\John\Desktop\Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo (official)_php.mht
        
        67
        
        john6747 on June 8, 2013 at 8:11 am
        
        Sorry folks messed up on the technology in the last post. Copy and paste the link into Google and go to the Facebook link. Scroll down to the Kermit cartoon.
        
        68
        
        fleadle on June 8, 2013 at 2:52 pm
        
        I never have a clue what your on about sorry I guess I’m a bit dumb. Link doesn’t work and I can’t cut and paste on a kindle.
        
        69
        
        john6747 on June 16, 2013 at 7:30 am
        
        Sorry Fleadle for taking time to reply. Try this link and scroll down to the Kermit cartoon.
        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jetsunma-Tenzin-Palmo-official/128315270626403
        
        70
        
        fleadle on June 16, 2013 at 1:07 pm
        
        Ahhhhhhhh now it all makes sense.Thanku John perfect cartoon I’m so Kermit!
        
        71
        
        The Devils Advocate on June 20, 2013 at 9:14 am
        Reply
        
        The Kadam forefather, Atisha said
        ‘You can teach others when you’ve realized selflessness and achieved clairvoyance.
        You can work for the benefit of others when you no longer think of your own benefit.’
        
        The founder of the Kadam ,Dromtönpa,said,
        ‘It’s useless for a beginner without experience or realization to try and help others with Dharma. Just as nothing can be poured from an empty vessel, no blessings can be obtained from him’
        
        The supposed rejuvenator of the Kadam, Kelsang Gyatso said
        ‘Just read this book and you’ll be qualified to teach others.’
        
        72
        
        fleadle on June 20, 2013 at 6:22 pm
        
        Well he cares about quantity not quality, if you have a mouth and half a brain off you go to teach. I knew some teachers who had very dodgy morals yet were being held up as advanced teachers I think this was bad for them and their students.
        
        73
        
        tenpel on June 22, 2013 at 9:21 am
        Reply
        
        Dear Fleadle,
        I read Stephen Schettinis book in full “Why I became a Buddhist monk …” In that book he describes his encounter with Kelsang Gyatso in Italy at the Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa
        
        Back in 1982, I translated a seven-day course for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in the Lama Tzongkhapa Institute in Italy. I found him a pedantic teacher and an irascible man, one of very few Tibetan teachers to whom I took a visceral dislike.
        
        74
        
        fleadle on June 22, 2013 at 5:46 pm
        
        I have heard many describe him in this way. Especially the short fuse,I know many feared him.He does deserve a medal for acting the sweet, harmless little monk he does it well.
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john6747 on June 4, 2013 at 7:19 am
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/30/religious-fundamentalism-categorised-mental-illness-cured-_n_3359267.html
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  john6747 on June 4, 2013 at 8:13 am
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  Full Moon was required reading for me when I first joined up. Pity I chucked them away. I remember when Losang Dragpa centre in Keighley was looking for a new home. The intention was to buy an old hospital and GKG was quoted in Full Moon as saying he predicted the building would play a major part in the development of Buddhism in the north. The building was bought by someone else. Eventually, Dobroyd Castle became the new home for LDC and was again the prediction was made that GKG could see the building would play a major part in the development of Buddhism in the north. We all know what happened there. I did ask the question about his first prediction…not much of a response…
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    tenpel on June 4, 2013 at 8:18 am
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    Thank you. In case anybody has some old Full Moon magazines: let’s digitalize them and put them online as PDF! They are an integral part of NKT’s own understanding of their history and visions/claims. Most new people who enter NKT have just no idea about NKT’s past … There is a paper by Dr. Reiss who only used NKT material to prove that concerns about NKT being a cult are justified. This paper is briefly mentioned in Waterhouse’s paper Buddhism in Bath. However, NKT threatened Reiss to sue him if he publishes it so he never published it, and its not available any more.
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      tenpel on June 4, 2013 at 8:23 am
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      for Reiss’ paper see also this note: https://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/academic-researches-regarding-shugden-controversy-nkt/#comment-24
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Michelle on September 1, 2013 at 4:37 pm
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Hi all,

Seems like the same points over and over . Pity we cant get a new angle on them but you cant when everyone refuses to budge. I think if you say the NKT is all bad OR the NKT is all good both are extremes. Everyone discussing is at one of these extremes.

Ive got a lot of good out of my time in the NKT but I also believe as a human community its not perfect. The problem is the concept of pure view is interpreted as no faults to been seen. THEN all faults have to be hidden…not neccessarily to protect a reputation …but sometimes if a people is trying to have a beauiful experience you try not to interrupt that. I think many religions have a situation where failures and shortcoming are hidden for these 2 reasons.

For me pure view isnt about making certain external things happen then saying “now I can see whats before me as pure”. I believe you see purity no matter what happens. All mistakes are teachings, people dont need to act in a certain way to be seeable as pure. I have a friend who is an atheist and Im finding it increasingly easy to see them as a Buddha giving me pure Dharma. Whenever I talk to them about anything spiritual they close up BUT when I stop talking & start listening everything they do and say is Dharma. Buts its not inherently Dharma because the other people in the room cant see that Dharma that I see

if this pure view is correctly understood I think this behaviour of hiding faults and problems goes away. Theres a lot of confusion about what is arrogance & humility also. People shout out their faults and act like a doormat. The point is to be relaxed about imperfections. Not desperate to display or hide them. Just try to experience incredible things when you see the people before you.

I think if there was more debate systems in religion like in the Tibetan colony monasteries in India, that would help too. To learn to back down and get a more precise understanding of topics such as how to do pure view correctly and what goes wrong when you do it incorrectly, for example
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  tenpel on September 1, 2013 at 6:08 pm
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  Thank you.
  Mainly, I agree with you.
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  fleadle on September 1, 2013 at 9:03 pm
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  Hi Michelle, you make some good points. When I first left the NKT I had no bad feelings then but slowly I noticed problems with how I related to others and once I started to look into other traditions and read other books I suddenly started to notice the many problems within the NKT I was looking with fresh eyes and then talking to others who had left the fog cleared and the penny dropped. I do however recognise the good I got also. I did learn good moral guidelines,I met some amazing, loving, kind people. All this said I believe the issues within the NKT to run too deeply for it to be overcome even if those within were willing to look at them,I also see the damage caused to myself and others too great and the good too small to think the NKT can help any one it causes so much harm to people and four that reason I hope one day it ends. You point at pure view as a big problem and I agree in fact I would go one step further and say that too manyTantric teachings and empowerment s are given to do e many with barely any Dharma experience this is one of the reasons pure view is so misunderstood and misused. Before I washed my hands for good of NKT something bad happened to one of my friends in the NKT,I wanted so much to talk to my NKT friends about what happened but none would, this silence and habit of burying problems is very unhealthy and dangerous and it is systemic in the NKT leaving people isolated and afraid. When I left I lost all my friends over night, no one would talk to me I was left in the dark, it left me bitter and angry for s while. I now have therapy and my confidence is slowly returning and my faith in Buddha is being rebuilt but until purple from both sides stay talking on open dialogue nothing can change. In the NKT if you are on the outside your deluded, wrong your pitied that attitude helps no one. All I want more is to warn others,to tell people to question and research. Many vulnerable people end up searching for spiritual answers but that can make us lazy and afraid to question but Buddha taught us that is the only way to understand. Thank you Michelle for your fresh view it is nice to read.
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Michelle on September 1, 2013 at 5:01 pm
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Also there is the aspect where you experience an incredible view of the person before you but that doesnt mean you are obedient to them. Even though my friend is teaching me Dharma constantly I dont see them as infalliable and someone to obey without question. This is another big topic of pure view. The belief that pure view entails obedience. I believe when someone is teaching you something that is not spiritual it is not neccessarily a state of unquestioning obedience. Indeed a good student might ask many questions. Sometimes students learn the most when in a state of rebellion. I dont think there is one inherent way that works for all. This is why in history some students took peaceful root Gurus some wrathful ones. The ‘one’ who had the deepest karmic connection was sought.
The question is if you are seeing a Buddha do you develop unquestioning obedience and become someone who follows their commands. Or do you develop a dynamic interaction between 2 equals that has various levels of depth and complexity being honest if you agree or not and just being able to be yourself. I prefer the 2nd model myself as Im finding Im learning faster if I can address how I feel directly to the Buddha, good bad or ugly without feeling I have to pretend to agree when my heart is screaming no I say no and then we go through the no in a quality discussion that is not about getting a set outcome but able relaxed exploring and sharing as 2 equals.
Maybe seeing a teahcer as my equal seems disrespectful but for me it is the opposite. Atm Im the most important person so for me it is development and progress
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  tenpel on September 1, 2013 at 6:12 pm
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  Thank you for your differentiated thoughts and views.
  
  I agree here too, there isn’t and there cannot be an inherent way that works for all.
  
  If you practice Tantra the student and teacher are at the practice level of seeing everybody as a Buddha the same. In that sense their are equal. On the level of realization they are very likely different …
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  Maik108 on September 6, 2013 at 8:01 am
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  Hi Michelle,
  Thanks for your posts, I find them to be among the more balanced, honest and personal ones in this whole thread. You point out the key issue: Human beings are imperfect and therefore all man-made institutions are full of problems. We would be most foolish to think otherwise.
  I see many problems with large, organized institutions that rely on a very small number of people and function as independent entities, i.e., as separate from their larger field. Having said that, I see more problems with massive institutions, such as the Catholic Church or the ‘Tibetan State Religion’ (for lack of a better term) of Buddhism. In any case, samsara doesn’t work, it always fails.
  Unlike some comments made by many people here, this is not a deflection of the issue. While it is true to say that samsara doesn’t work and that most problems we encounter are directly associated with our own karma, this does not mean we should not raise issues and try to better situations. In light of this, I believe the NKT has responded quite positively to criticism and has improved in style, approach and quality tremendously since, say, 1998. They have of course made mistakes along the way, such as developing (in my oppinion) too much of a defense-mechanism in the form of ‘smear-fighting campaigns. I think such things are ridiculous and unnecessary. There will also always be deluded individuals who try to bury issues or to suppress negligent activities, as Carol mentioned. This has nothing to do with any specific institution, it is unfortunately human nature.
  I have had a lot of association with the NKT in the last sixteen years and, while being aware of the usual problems, have never personally encountered the severely negative, sectarian attitude experienced by Carol or Tenpel. As an eclectic Buddhist practitioner, I read all kinds of books and attend all kinds of classes. I have always openly spoken about this with my NKT dharma friends and teachers and have not once been told or encouraged to discontinue these activities. Quite the contrary, most people are very interested. I also disagree with posts saying that Gyatso’s books incorrectly define ‘faith’, ‘guru yoga’ or ‘sectarianism’. I think they are correct and I find the same definitions in books by Geshe Rabten, Lama Yeshe, HH XIV Dalai Lama and many more.
  
  What strikes me very much however, is how unimportant this quarrel is. It seems to have started over a disagreement over the Dorje Shugden practice and has become a monster. Yesterday, a good friends of mine passed away rather suddenly. This is reality; it puts things into perspective, reducing this ‘fight’ between nkt and anti-nkt to dust.
  
  (to any spiritual practitioner, any short prayer or positive thought towards my friend Jack would be most significant and appreciated, thank you 🙂
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    tenpel on September 6, 2013 at 9:04 am
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    Maybe you would like to see it that way:
    
    I believe the NKT has responded quite positively to criticism and has improved in style, approach and quality tremendously since, say, 1998.
    
    But it is not as you claim, as the campaigning of the NKT front organization Western Shugden Society with their rude and aggressive accusation and campaign demonstrates.
    
    The campaign was ordered right from the top of NKT, Kelsang Gyatso. I wonder how you cannot see these things.
    
    When a GP NKT teacher recommended a non-Kelsang Gyatso book in the GP class, one week later she was removed from position. There is a huge difference between the let live approach towards people who are seen as outsiders or fringe members of NKT and how things are seen and dealt with once you are an insider or a fully committed NKT follower, e.g. an NKT ordained or NKT teacher as Carol and I were. Your experience cannot invalidate what we say though it adds another perspective, the perspective of a not fully committed NKT devotee. People as you are tolerated but would not be asked to become a resident teacher or to teach NKT classes. There was a big wave by Gen Thubten / Neil Elliot that removed people as you (with an eclectic approach) from NKT and from power within NKT. I assume you just don’t know the twisted and always re-written NKT history well enough to understand these things.
    
    However, there are local differences, an NKT centre can be more tolerant or less tolerant dependent on the NKT Resident Teacher’s attitude, approach and success to ‘recruit’ new followers.
    
    If you disagree with posts saying that Gyatso’s books incorrectly define ‘faith’, ‘guru yoga’ or ‘sectarianism’ it would be good if you could give reasoning. Carol & I gave reasoning and examples for our claims. There is no need to add more claims to the many unverified claims that NKT set already in the world. If you think these definitions are correct and you find the same definitions in books by Geshe Rabten, Lama Yeshe, HH XIV Dalai Lama and many more, then please demonstrate this and don’t just claim this. I made a lot of effort to prove my claims and so you should do. For example, here the explanation on faith:
    
    http://www.amazon.com/review/RX1WFOI3Z393U/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=094800679X&cdForum=Fx3NWYA35VV2CLL&cdMsgID=Mx2EHDF9TXHGUXI&cdMsgNo=5&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx2XMB36ADMPXVF&store=books#Mx2EHDF9TXHGUXI
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    tenpel on September 6, 2013 at 9:30 am
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    What strikes me very much however, is how unimportant this quarrel is. It seems to have started over a disagreement over the Dorje Shugden practice and has become a monster. Yesterday, a good friends of mine passed away rather suddenly. This is reality; it puts things into perspective, reducing this ‘fight’ between nkt and anti-nkt to dust.
    
    (to any spiritual practitioner, any short prayer or positive thought towards my friend Jack would be most significant and appreciated, thank you 🙂
    
    Actual I don’t quarrel. I like to inform people about NKT and the possible harm this organization and their social group dynamics + the distortions of teachings can bring to an individual. The existence of a self-supporting group of former NKT followers, the New Kadamapa Survivors, and what people there have to report is a testimony of this. This is not about Shugden what we write here but about the cultish and destructive culture of a highly controversial organization. The harm being experienced by individuals through NKT is not “unimportant” for me and others. It matters.
    
    I am sorry to hear that one of your friends suddenly passed away.
    I will pray for your friend Jack.
    
    —
    It’s a bit tricky to mix this topic into the general discussion but since you have done that now…
    
    If you use this personal example to argue here, I would like to say: also the sufferings of persons being harmed by the NKT is a reality. You cannot whitewash this or talk it away. NKT has destroyed the spiritual path of so many and this itself has a negative effect on future lives too – not to speak about the negative spiritual effects in this life (e.g. not being able to trust any person easily anymore) and the material harm etc. This harm exists, and that’s why Carol, I and others are commenting here, and that’s why we were encouraged to talk about these things. I am also not in a fight. I just give critical information with respect to NKT in order that the one-sided powerful NKT PR campaigns and self-promotions are at least a bit balanced.
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      Maik108 on September 6, 2013 at 10:37 am
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      Hi,
      thanks for your prayers, it is very appreciated.
      (I just wrote a message and it got lost, so here a summary):
      
      1) I agree with you, all issues need to be debated and brought out into the open
      2) As I said in my post, I am totally against whitewashing or suppressing of any sort. Sorry if that wasn’t clear
      3) You are wrong in your assumption that I am a fringe practitioner of the NKT. I said I was an eclectic practitioner open to many paths and teachers, but I am quite involved in the NKT community. I have been asked to teach many times but have usually chosen not to for my own reasons. I have sometimes taught short meditation classes and worked as an assistant and director for a center in Stockholm. All of this took place in the full knowledge that I read, study and attend classes by authors and teachers outside of the NKT.
      4) You are also wrong in assuming that I am not well informed about the organization. I am often met with this assumption when I write anything in slight favour of the NKT on blogs like this. I’m sure you’ll agree that such an opinion cannot be back up and shouldn’t really be used in an argument.
      
      I apologize for saying that the issues are unimportant, this was badly worded and not really what I meant.
      
      Faith (Sanskrit Shraddha) has slightly different meanings depending on the school. There are for example differences between Theravada and Vajrayana views on faith. What all have in common is that they indicate an open mind that is working in the mode of wisdom and motivated by compassion. The way I understand this, is that Buddhist faith is a mind that wants to know the true nature of things for the benefit of onesself and others, is open to the teachings, but is mixed with wisdom. That means, the mind has studied the subject in question deeply, intellectually and philosophically and has put them in to practice. When the person is then satisfied that the teaching makes sense, that it works, that it is reasonable, they develop faith in the teaching, in the teacher, in the practice. This then grows exponentially.
      
      Some short quotes for now
      “Ultimate truth is driven by faith.” – HH Dalai Lama
      “Faith is the root of dharma realisations” GK Gyatso
      I will try to find more later when I have time.
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        tenpel on September 6, 2013 at 9:46 pm
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        Dear Mike,
        thank you. You appear somewhat unique to me.
        
        I wouldn’t deny that there can be exceptions, and that there is variety – though not too much variety 😉
        
        Since you know the NKT history you know also that Kelsang Gyatso himself forced his closest students to either decide for him totally or to leave. Also on this blog such stories have been reported – eg an NKT monk and a former student of Geshe Jampa Tegchok – who taught the first two years at Manjushri institute – when this NKT monk who considered Geshe Jampa Tegchok to be (one of) his teachers, wanted to welcome and greet Geshe Jampa Tegchok who visited the UK at that time, Geshe-la himself pressurized this NKT monk, that if he does so, he would break with him. I think I don’t need to tell you what effects such threats have for a NKT devotee. There is a long term history directly based on the actions of KG that binds NKT students / his disciples exclusively to him and his books. Even if there can be a live and let live approach (according to time and situation) there is a deeply rooted setup and unspoken rules and experiences with Geshe-la, that implant in his closes disciples feelings of guilt and fear to not exclusively rely on him and his books. I am happy for you that your are one of the exceptions.
        
        There was another NKT eclectic, aka as “emptymountains”, who argued a bit like you and who wrote a lot in the internet (having his own websites and blogs (e.g. about Shugden and NKT teachings/books), explaining NKT/KG’s point of view, editing Wikipedia articles to bring them into line with NKT pov etc. And my feeling was always that NKT lets him do this because he serves a certain purpose for NKT. People like you are sometimes not pushed to fit into the party line, because you serve a certain purpose for the organization. However, this does not nullify what deeply involved NKT ordained persons and NKT teachers (as Carol or I) or former followers like fleadle etc. or people at New Kadampa Survivors say.
        
        BTW, recently “emptymountains” left NKT, his websites and blogs are offline. I assume he also stopped editing NKT related Wikipedia articles. I wonder why? What happened to him? What changed his mind? How is he now?
        
        Now with respect to discussing faith. Since this is a crucial issue within NKT (and for spiritual development) it is crucial to get a sober understanding. Any misunderstanding might potentially mislead one.
        
        If we talk about faith it is good to use reliable definitions. I gave a definition according to the scriptures (Asanga’s Abhidharmasamuccaya) here:
        https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2013/03/17/rigpa-cults-the-catholic-church-and-hh-dalai-lama-a-pep-talk/#comment-8600
        
        You find here statements by KG with respect to faith that are self-created:
        https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2013/05/30/meditation-on-university-campus-new-kadampa-tradition-luring-students-under-a-new-label-modern-buddhist-society/#comment-11465 Why are they self-created? Because for instance, doubt is not overcome by faith but wisdom. The specific function of wisdom (discriminative intelligence) is according to Asanga that it overcomes doubt. It is also wrong to claim that faith were “a naturally virtuous mind that functions mainly to oppose the perception of faults in its observed object.”, as KG does. Why? Because faith can see the faults of an object (e.g. faults of Samsara) and does not deny them. If you go through genuine Buddhist study material, you can clearly see the limitations of KG’s presentation of a particular important topic that is presented by KG in a superficial and also misleading way. If you do this work (which means if you are willing and open and unbiased to investigate really) you will understand what I am talking about, and you would also understand why I cannot accept this superficial understanding you deliver here:
        
        Faith (Sanskrit Shraddha) has slightly different meanings depending on the school. There are for example differences between Theravada and Vajrayana views on faith. What all have in common is that they indicate an open mind that is working in the mode of wisdom and motivated by compassion. The way I understand this, is that Buddhist faith is a mind that wants to know the true nature of things for the benefit of oneself and others, is open to the teachings, but is mixed with wisdom. That means, the mind has studied the subject in question deeply, intellectually and philosophically and has put them in to practice. When the person is then satisfied that the teaching makes sense, that it works, that it is reasonable, they develop faith in the teaching, in the teacher, in the practice. This then grows exponentially.
        
        Some short quotes for now
        “Ultimate truth is driven by faith.” – HH Dalai Lama
        “Faith is the root of dharma realisations” GK Gyatso
        I will try to find more later when I have time.
        
        Although there are different ways to rely on a teacher according to Shravakayana, Bodhisattvayana and Vajrayana, all in all there is not a big difference in the definition of Shradda, if this is so, please present them from their respective genuine and commonly accepted canonical texts. The object of faith is either an excellent quality [that really exists], an existent phenomenon [like the Four Noble Truths, Samsara, Nirvana] or a potential [like the existing potential to increase compassion or wisdom]. Therefore it is not “an open mind that is working in the mode of wisdom and motivated by compassion.” However, faith can be concomitant with wisdom and compassion BUT it is not “in the mode” of these two mental factors. Faith as you describe it “Buddhist faith is a mind that wants to know the true nature of things for the benefit of onesself and others” would be rather “aspiration”, one of the five object ascertaining mental factors, that is karmically neutral while faith is always a wholesome mental factor. Faith can be concomitant with wisdom or based on it but it needn’t be concomitant with wisdom or being based on it. If it is concomitant with wisdom or rooted in wisdom it is more stable. But there are people who only hear a Dharma topic / see a really existing quality and develop immediately one or all of these three types of faith. (This is discussed in the Abhisamayalamkara. I might later add the passage from there when I find it and find time to look for it.)
        
        When HH the Dalai Lama says: “Ultimate truth is driven by faith.” the meaning of this statement should be understood. The meaning is that you need first one or some of these three types of faith as explained by Asanga in the ultimate truth (that the lack of inherent existence really exists) in order to cultivate an aspiration to strive to realized that ultimate truth, based on this aspiration, effort arises, based on effort to engage in the hearing, contemplation and meditation of the Two Truths arise. Based on this effort, one finally realizes the Two Truths (or any other quality, that was the object of one’s faith). Only that’s why “Faith is the root of dharma realizations”. BUT again, faith as explained in NKT and faith as understood according to genuine Buddhist canonical texts as the Abhidharmas, there is a HUGE difference!
        
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        Maik108 on September 7, 2013 at 7:08 am
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        Dear Tenpel,
        Thanks for your very in-depth reply. Please allow me some time to study it, I will try to reply when I can.
        
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        tenpel on September 7, 2013 at 9:06 am
        
        Dear Maik,
        thank you. We will recite today the Golden Light Sutra for the peace in Syria, I will include your good friend Jack in the prayers.
        
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        Maik108 on September 7, 2013 at 6:11 pm
        
        Dear Tenpel,
        Thank you so much! That is very kind.
        
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        fleadle on September 7, 2013 at 10:33 am
        
        Dear maik, I would say even a teacher in the NKT who doesn’t live in would still find it hard to spot the main abuses add it is very insidious and hard to notice until it starts to effect your own abilities to be independent. I do know of some members who ate not negatively affected because they are strong willed and keep a sense if their own identity but this is rare. A lot of those involved come with very low self esteem and often from an abusive childhood those people are very susceptible to the subtle brain washing where you are encouraged to hands over all your power and independence. I was ordained and I would say before I got ordained I was not put under any pressure but once I put the robes on I was treated very differently, like a slave really who paid for my own slavery. I also support what Tenpel says some centres are more laid back with less extreme teachers and methods. The problems within theNKT are so systemic that noticing them is often very difficult, but I have known of members being given a lot of leeway because they had certain skills or finances that were needed. For example I knew of a very damaged female teacher who had questionable moral discipline and general behavior but she was rarely challenged because she was so skilled at bringing in New people and therefore more money, she could pretty much get away with murder! I am glad their are those like you who seem to do well in the NKT but that will never over balance the harm caused to do many. After 10 years in the NKT I am now in therapy to help me over come my experiences and the long term emotional and psychological damage I suffered at the hands of a teacher who continually made me work when sick, put me down, criticised me, verbally abused me and weighed me down with guilt. I came to the NKT with low self esteem but with strong opinions I left with no confidence and no idea what I thought all I knew is what Kelsang Gyatso thought. I lost myself as did so many others I hope you do not, please hold on to your identity and keep questioning as Buddha taught and most of all trust your instincts they may nother always be right but often they can pull us to safety when all else fails because no matter who we rely on ultimately all we have is our own mind and heart and that is what Buddha longed for us to know.
        
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        Maik108 on September 7, 2013 at 6:10 pm
        
        Dear Feadle,
        Thanks for your message, I very much appreciate your openness and honesty. I am also very sad to hear about the difficulties and problems you experienced.
        It may surprise you to hear that I myself have a handful of close friends/family who also experienced severely negative things, including financial misconduct and embezzlement (by a teacher who has since finally been caught and charged with his crimes), as well as really terrible verbal and psychological abuse by certain people from the NKT head office in Ulverston (this was experienced by at least two ordained friends of mine living abroad who have since disrobed because of it).
        
        Having said that, I also have many very close friends of mine who work in centers, are ordained or lay teachers and many of them for very many years. They are genuinely very happy, while also being intelligent, wise people. We often discuss the issues mentioned above, so they are aware of them, but have not ever encountered them themselves. So at the end of the day, there are different kinds of testimonies coming from different people.
        
        I very much agree with your points. My personal view is that these problems are found in all kinds of organisations – not only religious ones, but also political ones for example. It is something I have often observed: many people who have identity issues, psychological problems or simply the need to belong to a larger group will attach themselves to an organisation – The Green Party, the Tories, the Hare Krishnas or the NKT, etc. Many of these individuals develop strongly in their community and with a lot of attachment to their new identity. These people often become extremely sectarian and power-hungry (sadly) and, due to their eagerness, are often to be found quite high up in the organisation. Then there are others who are less strong, who also try to latch on to their new group, believing it to solve all of their problems. These people are of course let down and suffer a lot, often at the hands of those with more power. It is a terrible thing (Chogyam Trungpa implicitly talks about this phenomenon in ‘Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism’).
        Possibly the main difference between my view and yours, is that I do not believe this to be an NKT-phenomenon. It is a human trait that can be found in all kinds of groups or institutions. Having had lengthy associations with the Vaishnava tradition ISKCON and some with the FPMT, Diamond Way and Triratna traditions, I have to conclude that this kind of terrible behaviour is to be found everywhere. I do not believe there to be a secret agenda high up in the NKT whose only aim is to become more powerful and rich, because I myself do not see any evidence for that. I do however agree that the behaviour you describe exists and needs to be confronted.
        
        Yes, I agree completely that we need to rely upon our own mind and inner wisdom; ultimately, that is all we really have.
        
        I hope you don’t mind me sharing these thoughts, nor that you think I’m undermining what you say. I am not, I take it seriously.
        
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        fleadle on September 7, 2013 at 10:31 pm
        
        Dear maik, Thank you so much for your open and intelligent response. You have shown me more understanding and kindness than any of my former friends from the NKT who never seemed to attempt to see things from my side. I have to sayI agree with you when you say that these problems occur in many large organisations it is for that reason I probably would never get that invested in another religious organisation again. Regardless of this fact it doesn’t mean we should ignore the many issues of theNKT. One of the problems in the NKT is that very few people can even admit there are problems and even if they do they just shrug and say oh well that’s samsara or people are deluded and nothing is done to address serious issues that cause long term harm to many people. These are not small issues, the covering up of sexual abuse is something that may happen in other organisations but it needs to be addressed but in the NKT nothing is addressed because at the top is a tyrant who rules with an iron fist yet is very well disguised as a small humble monk. I have seen first hand the anger this monk had when challenged our when anyone does something he doesn’t like it shocked me but opened my eyes. Everyone has faults but in the NKT people follow Kelsang Gyatso with blind devotion and do everything he says even though they have no direct relationship with him. People are encouraged to follow without question and yet it seems to me he is not a well individual who has been influenced also by some western narcissists that may have pushed him in a negative direction. If the root of something is poisoned so is the tree. On top of this is the martyrdom that is encouraged, I have seen so many bright, intelligent, kind strong women become door mats to everyone and lose their identity till the person I knew is gone. To me the only solution is if people stand up for themselves and try to work through these issues by using their own wisdom but their are too few with independence and sense. Too many Just do what they are told. Kelsang Gyatso had also left out and distorted Je Tsongkhapas teachings to such a degree that he can hardly call himself the lineage holder. I know there are wise, kind intelligent people in the NKT but they are too few and far between. When an organisation does more harm than good it needs to be changed or stopped. I wanted to become a better person but the NKT left me unable to even relate to those outside its walls so how can I help others. The development of love and compassion is impossible without empathy and that is impossible without love for oneself and understanding if ourselves, our problems, or good qualities. None of the latter is encouraged or taught in the NKT so I don’t see a good future for those involved. Part of me hopes I am wrong but I have seen too much to believe that. Good people with insight and understanding like you are needed in abundance in the NKT but how you can effect change I really do not know. All I do know is that I cannot in all honesty allow anyone to enter the NKT without warning them if I have the opportunity. Once Kelsang Gyatso is gone I doubt the organisation will survive as their a’re no charismatic teachers left to carry it, this will not be a good day if I’m right for many have invested their while lives and when the empire falls it will take many with it. Kelsang Gyatso may not be some evil genius hell bent on world domination he is someone who believes has a good intention and now that saying ‘ the road to hell is paved with good intentions’ makes much more sense.
        
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        peter on September 8, 2013 at 9:08 am
        
        Interesting you mention Ole Nydahl. This article by Burkhard Scherer demonstrates how certain views can become reinforced and even amplified by devotees,
        
        “While there is evidence for the interpretation of Nydahl’s current views on non-heterosexualities as reluctantly neutral or only mildly homophobic, the hetero-machismo attitude among a large part of his studentship especially in Central and Eastern Europe is still creating a difficult and occasionally openly homo-/transphobic atmosphere in the Diamond Way.” (Religion and Gender vol. 1. no. 1 (2011), p.101)
        
        http://www.religionandgender.org/index.php/rg/article/view/URN%3ANBN%3ANL%3AUI%3A10-1-101579/21
        
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        r. tenpel on September 8, 2013 at 9:42 am
        
        Just as a side track, though Scherer might be correct here, he seems to be very diligent to whitewash criticism with respect to Nydahl. Dr. Burkhard Scherer is a disciple of Nydahl.
        
        I read recently something by Scherer about Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way, and this is what I got out of it:
        
        – The DW is an authentic branch of Tibetan Buddhism, a part of the global Karma Kagyu school.
        – External criticism of the DW and its ‘controversial nature’ are largely a product of bias and/or, in particular, due to the continuing split within the Karma Kagyu school.
        
        But these claims are incorrect from my pov. Scherer just refuses to accept (or to examine) – without giving any good arguments – Prof. Martin Baumann’s criticism of Nydahl teaching a type of “Dharma light” and Dr. Christian Ruch’s criticism of Nydahl having a hedonistic approach that has not much to do with Buddhism. Scherer attacks Ruch as being potentially biased because Ruch has a Christian / catholic background. While this is a contradiction for him his own affiliation to Nydahl seems not be be a problem for him.
        
        What Scherer doesn’t do is to examine that indeed many of Nydahls and DW teachings and approaches are hedonistic – in their tendency and content – and he misses as well to examine and to see that Nydahl indeed teaches a “Dharma light” version where there is no suffering but only joy etc., teaching the enjoying of the sense pleasures. The encouraging of activities like bunggee jumping, parachuting to experience “the nature of mind” go into a similar direction. Also Nydhal’s own boasting claims of having slept with more than 500 women rather indicate a thorough enjoying of Samsara’s pleasure (if not addiction) than much understanding of the Four Noble Truths.
        
        Scherer shows some traditional teachings given or implemented by Nydahl that would prove Nydahl’s “traditional background” but he doesn’t pick up the criticism and arguments of critics of Nydahl and disapproves them.
        
        Scherer also completely ignores the criticism of ex-Nydahl students and the controversies and criticism around him within the German Buddhist Union and the Austria Religious Community. He seems mainly to aim to demonstrate Nydahl as a mainstream Buddhist.
        
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        Maik108 on September 8, 2013 at 8:12 pm
        
        Thanks again for your open and clear reply. There is a lot to take in here. Please give me some time to read and contemplate and accept my reply in maybe more than just one part 😉
        
        The first thing that strikes me, is that it may be difficult to debate some of these issues, as they concern very personal experiences. In addition, you have also heard of the experiences of many others, as have I, and these seem to contradict each other. Be that as it may, I hope we can continue the dialogue anyway.
        
        Yes, I agree: we should not ignore anything! If you feel that your friends, who want to attend an NKT class, should be warned, then of course you should warn them. You seem to have plenty of reason to do so.
        
        “One of the problems in the NKT is that very few people can even admit there are problems and even if they do they just shrug and say oh well that’s samsara or people are deluded and nothing is done to address serious issues that cause long term harm to many people.”
        
        Yes, I agree with you partially. There are many people walking around the NKT who will not hear a single negative syllable uttered against their tradition. They will shrug and say it’s just samsara. This is ridiculous and not helpful to themselves or others. But I don’t perceive this to be a huge majority. In most classes I have attended in my fifteen years (GP, FP, TTP and some others, in centers in the UK, Switzerland and Sweden), the teachers have more often than not stated very clearly and plainly the importance of putting all the teachings to the test, checking them and questioning them. However, it is true that there are some teachers who do not do this and who encourage blind obedience and submission. I have chosen not to be taught by them.
        
        The issue you mention about sexual abuse: that is extremely serious. I have never heard of something like that happening. If you feel comfortable about it, please tell me more. Something like that needs to be challenged.
        
        “Everyone has faults but in the NKT people follow Kelsang Gyatso with blind devotion and do everything he says even though they have no direct relationship with him. People are encouraged to follow without question and yet it seems to me he is not a well individual who has been influenced also by some western narcissists that may have pushed him in a negative direction.”
        
        This is very interesting to me: I cannot disagree with you as you are talking about your personal experience. All I can do is say I have never experienced the same. Quite the contrary. All classes and courses I and most of my close friends and relatives have attended have encouraged all students to question the teachings and to put them to the test. Of course it is true, as you and Tenpel have mentioned, that the NKT only has one singular spiritual guide/founder. But that does not mean he is untouchable at all. Clearly he has made mistakes and many of these have been acknowledged. Many have maybe not been acknowledged, I don’t know. On a side note, this is not something unique. His Holiness Dalai Lama has made many mistakes as well, some of them political and some of them in conjunction with the ban on Dorje Shugden (in my opinion). This does not in any way detract from him being a perfect teacher of Buddhism and functioning as a bonafide Guru.
        I believe, as you say, that there are some people (some of them quite powerful and influential) with negative intentions and bad attitudes. I personally do not think or feel that Geshe Kelsang has been influenced negatively by them. I also do not believe that he has any kind of negative agenda going on, nor that he is paving a pathway to hell. But then again, these are just our personal opinions.
        
        The thing you say about martyrdom is actually also somewhat true in my eyes. I find it utterly ridiculous. I have myself openly criticised projects like NKTTRUTH or books like ‘A Great Deception’: these are, in my own opinion, really weak and negative reactions and retaliations to the criticisms and different opinions of others. I know a handful of monks and nuns who are completely brainwashed and “cultish” in their approach to dharma and to their guru. This is really sad.
        However: I do not believe, nor have I myself seen any evidence, that this kind of behaviour is encouraged by a) Geshe Kelsang, or b) the NKT as an institution.
        
        I very much hope you’re wrong about the demise and ruin of the NKT after Geshe Kelsang is gone; but maybe you’re right, only time will tell.
        
        I would like just to end this post by saying this: you and Tenpel have pointed out that the NKT has destroyed the spiritual path and well being of so many people. Like I said, I am sad to hear this, and if it is true, I think it should be voiced and I am glad you are doing so. However, you have not acknowledged the other side: there are very, very many people who have and continue to get tremendous benefit, happiness and peace of mind from the teachings, classes and retreats provided by the NKT. These are a mixed group of people, many of them highly intelligent, wise and rooted. Are they all being fooled? And to what purpose? Is not their experience valid as well?
        
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        fleadle on September 14, 2013 at 6:52 pm
        
        Dear maik, I am sorry it has taken a while to get back to you but I wanted to think about my replies carefully. It does seem to me you are one of the lucky ones who had found a fairly open minded teacher. Saying this you are unlikely to heat any stories of abuse or problems within the NKT by those still members because the brainwashing is so deep and so insidious it is not until you leave you begin to open your eyes while within you use the teachings to explain everything away, if my teacher bullies me it’s my karma or its a blessing. If I’m seduced by my teacher it’s a Tantric lesson etc their are endless ways to excuse what is going on. In the NKT you are promised happiness from day one and when you don’t get it, out is your fault. Meditation is not a magic happiness drug it is a tool to learning about ourselves the good and bad without judgement. Promising people happiness is dangerous this is not what Buddha taught or promised, when we learn about ourselves and love and accept ourselves so we can then do this for others. I know a lot of very emotionally, physically and psychologically unwell people in the NKT who will sweat they are happy. When I was in the NKT I told everyone I was happy but I was lying I didn’t want to admit I had failed. We tell to say to others what we wish were true not what really is. The fact you have not heard of the sexual abuse that happened at the hands of Gen Tubten and Gen samden later, shows how hard they worked to cover it up and then used the protests as a handy distraction. I know sexual abuse had occurred in other traditions but it has been followed by apologies and a real attempt to change things in the NKT the nuns were blamed as well as the abusers, they were punished and no apology given. They were taken advantage of by people they looked up to and admired yet GKG covered it up as much as possible, is this the action of a kind person? As concerns freedom to question,I to was told to question as much as I liked but behind closed doors it is very different. If you don’t live in you will not see many things,I know of lots of members who came for years and were very involved yet knew nothing about the inner world of our centre. If asked to much I was told just do what Gkg says and stop having doubts. It was made clear he is right you are wrong full stop! Those who directly questioned GKG got to see the real Guru a very angry old man. It’s not what people say it’s what they do and I have seen with my own eyes how angry and vile KG can be if you question him or disagree with him. You criticise NKT truth and the book A great deception, they come from KG, let me trek you one truthKG knows everything that goes on in the NKT, he is kept informed daily nothing happens without his say so this know for a fact. You say many people find happiness in the NKT but I would argue that, in 10 years in the NKT I saw many independent, funny, vibrant people slowly lose their spark, something inside them seemed to die their spirit maybe. I never witnessed many people grow or develop, what I saw was people getting more and more dependant on the NKT till they lost themselves Buddha wanted us to find ourselves within not lose ourselves to dogma. Most people were empty parrots quoting Gyatso with no ideas of their own. All KG cats about is the growth of his empire supposedly for the benefit of all living beings yet if the individuals in the NKT are not cared for how can any good come from that organisation? Is everyone filed, most yes, years of brainwashing that you don’t even notice until you get out and realise you can’t relate to others, the only opinions you have are KG’s. Lama Yeshe may not also have a Geshe degree but then he doesn’t call himself a Geshe does he? KG took over an open minded organisation run by many Lamas and turned it into his own cult. A cult that promises you the world but takes all your money, time, identity and if you date stand up for yourself or criticise you are tossed aside like rubbish. His motive the oldest their is power. He may have started with a good intention but some where he lost it and none seems to have noticed. I know you will disagree with most of what I say and that’s fine when you are inside those outside seem mad and I hope in a way I am because if I’m right something that started out with so much hope and promise had become a poisonous tree that will give rise to poisoned fruit and many good people will be hurt because most if not all of those within the NKT believe they ate working for the good of others but it seems they are not even working for their own good.
        
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        Maik108 on September 16, 2013 at 7:23 pm
        
        Dear Feadle
        
        No problem, Im busy too. Thanks for your reply. I will go through your points rather bluntly to save writing time, please don’t mistake this for being a cold or irritated response though;). I hope to read a response from you, but will leave this thread afterwards, as I don’t feel it is going anywhere. Furthermore its not in my interest to defend the NKT at all, just wanted to leave some thoughts and read those of others.
        
        You are correct, I respectfully disagree with most of your points. What it comes down to is this: Your observations are simply not my experience at all. That does not mean I am whitewashing them. However, I would like to get more concrete examples.
        
        You claim that there has been sexual abuse at the hands of Gen Samden and before him Gen Thubten (I am indeed very familiar with them and with what happened). You also imply that Geshe Kelsang knew of this and suppressed it.
        
        This is such an incredibly serious allegation, if it is true I would ask you to present stronger evidence. Also, please keep in mind that sexual misconduct is not synonymous with sexual abuse – the two are extremely different. Monks and nuns falling for pleasures of the flesh is hardly a new or isolated thing;-)
        
        You say that in the NKT one is promised happiness from day one. I disagree, this has never been promised as far as I know. True, teachers do say that if we put the teachings of Buddha into practice we will be happy eventually.
        
        All my teachers, including GKG have constantly said not to worry about results, not to have expectations, but to patiently practice and be relaxed about it. Furthermore, why point the finger? If somebody promises you instant happiness, it is your responsibility as a thinking human being to doubt their claim and make up your own mind.
        
        You say there are a lot of physically and psychologically unwell people in the NKT. Yes, there are. As there are everywhere else in the world. Not quite sure what your point is here.
        
        It is true that there are many people who are not honest with themselves or others and don’t admit when they are feeling bad, attached, angry, etc. There are also lots of people who are very honest and rooted, I find.
        
        You say that the sexual abuse was suppressed and that the protests against HH Dalai Lama’s ban on Dorje Shugden was a smokescreen with the purpose of covering up the abuse. This is a very serious allegation and I challenge you to back it up with something factual. At present, I do not agree with you at all. I was at two demonstrations (which despite what has been written were not only NKT, there were many Tibetans there whom I met and spoke with). Their purpose was to raise awareness of the Shugden issue (whether we agree about their approach is not relevant here I would say, but could be discussed elsewhere)
        
        You say those who question GKG see the real person: an angry old man. I disagree. As to your own experiences I cannot say anything. Guru-student relationships are very personal, unique and function on various levels. It is therefore pointless to, for example, publish letters between GKG and old disciples, as they are likely to be misunderstood and out of context.
        
        You say you never saw anybody develop or grow, but just get depressed, loose their spark, etc. This is very sad, I cannot argue, that was your experience. I have seen a few people develop in exactly that same way: all the way downhill. There can always be countless reasons for such things happening. I will counter your experience again with my own, for I have witnessed tremendous growth in people as well: people with incredibly low self esteem, lots of fear and even somewhat hampered intellects growing into very confident, happy, peaceful and intelligent individuals. If everybody became depressed, why is the tradition rather large? Why is it growing? Why is there a core of about 300 people who’ve been around since the late 70s? Are they all only pretending to be happy with their practice?
        
        You say the only opinions people have are GKGs. I agree that there is a small portion of practitioners in the NKT who are mere parrots: not thinking, not questioning and not formulating their own oppinions. My main concern with this small group, is that they are often quite eager to start teaching and preaching. My hope is that they don’t succeed, though of course some of them have. Aside from this small group, I once again disagree with you based on my own experience: Not only a large body of Sangha friends, many of whom have been good friends of mine for 15 years, but also teachers I know (some of whom have been around for many years and are quite ‘prominent’ teachers) are all strong advocates of thinking for yourself, making your practice applicable and personal, questioning the teachings, etc.
        
        You are correct, Thubten Yeshe didn’t call himself Geshe; he called himself Lama instead. Fair enough. Still he completed his Geshe degree just like Geshe Kelsang but neglected to pick up his paper. You didn’t respond to my other points though: Why did HH Dalai Lama, Yongzin Ling Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche all refer to Kelsang Gyatso as Geshe? Were they wrong?
        
        While you clearly advocate questioning and speaking out, you do not acknowledge that this is being done by people within the NKT, such as myself. I mentioned as an example that I had spoken out against the Great Deception book and the NKT Truth website. Instead of acknowledging such acts as healthy forms of questioning and thinking-for-onesself, you only pointed out that, in your opinion, all of these projects were helmed by GKG alone. It seems as though you are advising people not to question or critique, but to blindly believe in your own opinion; (forgive me if that sounds harsh, it isn’t meant personally).
        
        The Guru-relationship is interesting. To me, it works on two levels: There is the Guru who appears within meditation, in Guru-Yoga. This Guru is non-different from Buddha, Je Tsongkhapa, etc. But then there is also the conventional teacher, who lives in this imperfect world, is as human as you and me, makes mistakes, corrections, improvements, some bad decisions and so on. I cannot think of a single spiritual teacher who does not. Furthermore, there is no contradiction between this aspect and the former, both function and are valid. So from a worldly point of view, I definitely acknowledge that GKG has made a handful of mistakes, some bad decisions and the like. My spiritual view of him is personal and secret and is hardly something to discuss or debate about. I cannot argue or discuss how much he may or may not have had to do with the things I have criticised.
        
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        fleadle on September 17, 2013 at 7:35 pm
        
        Dear Maik, Thank you for your considered response. In many ways I realise you will not be able to see eye to eye with me as you have not had my experiences nor have you spoken to the many people I have both students of mine who left theNKT and Sangha who left before and after me, they have been kind and brave enough to share
        
        their fears and worries with me and to be
        honest regardless of what either of us say too many people have suffered long term health problems both physical and emotional. The fact the NKT is the only Buddhist organisation that has an ex member support group seems to me to say enough. The issues within the NKT are so systemic and long running I do not believe healing can begin. I do not believe their are evil people in the NKT with plots whispered behind closed doors I believe that most members are deeply brainwashedin such an insidious manner they don’t even recognise it until they leave and start to look on their experience in the NKT with open eyes.
        The reason I use the term sexual abuse rather than misconduct when talking about
        what Gen Samden and Thubten did is
        because they were teachers in positions of
        power over vulnerable women. KG was
        warned about Gen Samdens attachment
        issues before he got the post yet KG ignored
        this, when he was told about Samden
        having sex with nuns nothing was done for
        overt a year until it was leaked onto the
        internet only then did he speak out and
        sack Samden, but even this was only done
        after offering him a long retreat and
        opportunity to come back. Nuns involved
        were punished instead of being apologised
        to. He had never said sorry. He hid the
        abuse for ad Long as he could the truth
        only came out through approved rumours a
        method often used in the NKT. This
        situation happens twice yet does KG
        change anything or even accept any
        responsibility. Samden was a charismatic teacher soKG did all he could to avoid getting rid of him. The one truth I found undeniable once I left is that the growth of the empire is more important than those within it. I have seen examples of this time and again to the point that anyone speaking out about anything the NKT does is quickly got rid of no attempt to address their issues our give them support with any doubts they may have. If the NKT benefits so many who? Those outside are deluded until they are members, those inside have all the answers so they don’t need help. We are taught to avoid angry people, those with doubts,those with mental health issues and anyone not useful so who is being helped. Their is so much talk in theNkt about love and compassion yet it doesn’t occur very often. In the NKT you are trained in lip service that’s it. I found this out when I started to have doubts my teacher wouldn’t address them when I finally left and met my husband and he started asking my teacher questions same blank wall. When I openly spoke out about the treatment of two of my friends I was over night abandoned by people I thought were my friends I was treated like a leper incase my doubts were catching. Human emotions are tested like terrible diseases this is not helpful because it encourages so many to hide how they really feel. You say every one makes mistakes I would agree, their are issues in lots of other Buddhist organisations the difference is they learn from them. Even Triatna tradition gave an open apology about the abuse by one teacher and a lot was done to change things,I would have thought the sign of a strong person with heart and wisdom is that they can own their mistakes and say sorry and learn. KG had never admitted his key alone apologise. WhatTenpel says about hope and fear in the NKT is so on the ball. In the beginning its all this is the only path to joy and happiness, then once you are in deeper its you are so deluded, degenerate times, not much time no other path can help you. You are risen up and then your bubble is burst so quickly and then if you say in not happy it’s just don’t expect results, it’s your karma, it’s basically all your fault if your unhappy and all KGs praised if you are happy. Every Gp poster is about peace and joy, even a child in a NKT school promo video said when you meditate all the bad things stop completely misunderstanding the point of meditation. When I left and read otherDharma books the difference astounded me it was then I knew what was missing, heart. Real emotion, human touch. I think the DL and others once respected KG but long retreats alone may have left him open to problems and now I believe he is unwell and that he believes he is doing good but in my 10 years I have not seen proof of that. In fact in the first year with my husband I felt he did more good for others than I ever did in the NKT and when I left I spent sone time talking and listening to old students of mine and friends who left the NKT and I was able to help sine and felt for the first time in years I was helping people. My greatest teacher is my son who had taught me so much about love empathy and compassion than I ever learnt in the NKT and my husband had shown me how to relate to others and nor judge them. I am sorry if I misunderstood what you said about the great deception and NKT Truth I thought you were saying students had done it without. Kgs permission and this is not the case. The book was a disgrace basically name calling a great lama like the DL. That alone shows a lack of wisdom. You are right when you say there are damaged people everywhere but in a tradition that offers solutions and yet after years people are still very unhappy, still stuck in bad mental habits why? Because finding a Dharma quote or practise that supports your issues is too easy when your don’t have clear guidance from a good teacher or Guru. For example a martyr will find plenty of reasons to continue because we must put others before ourselves. An abused person can stay in that relationship because with Tantra every thing is pure and all actions are blessings. Tantra is handed out like sweeties to very inexperienced people. New people end up with vows they don’t understand and cannot keep. At the end of the day this could go on and on, I understand how you see things because I stood where you once did, for me apart from niggles that wouldn’t leave me the biggest alarm bell was that I tried my best to practise,I worked my butt off,I never complained I prayed,I meditated and after 10 years I was as angry and as depressed as I had always been. I was surrounded by other sick unhappy people who seemed like me to have no self confidence. In Charlotte jokos book she says’a Bodhisattva is confident, they have strong self confidence, good self esteem and are open to themselves and all other beings without this love of self they could not love others or understand them. ‘ I went to Buddhism because I longed to know myself to unlock the secrets of my mind, I left looking in the mirror at a stranger because all I learnt in the NKT was a list of Good and bad qualities that were not me. Now I am starting to find myself,I am getting to know myself and I am getting to like who I am because every day I have a beautiful little boy telling me I’m special and beautiful and I am loved he is 2 yet he had unlocked the secret to my heart that is something KG was never qualified or able to do. I hope for you the story in the NKT is different and I hope through your questioning change occurs but some how I doubt it.
        
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        tenpel on September 17, 2013 at 10:21 pm
        
        Thank you Fleadle for all of your comments, effort and openness to share your experiences and knowledge. For me it is far away what happend and I was only four years in NKT. My remembrance and experience is not fresh enough to touch others. It makes a lot of difference when someone like you writes here. I am very happy that you managed to get out of it!
        
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        fleadle on September 18, 2013 at 12:03 am
        
        Thank you Tenpel that means a lot to me. I am happy to be available to those who need someone to turn to. Losing all my NKT friends was bad enough but I also didn’t get much support from my other friends who had left before me, they all choose to be quiet about their experiences I think sine of that was due to NKT training but I think it was also fear they would lose all their friends too, as some kept in contact with NKT friends, my big mouth made that impossible. Having your blog site to talk on helps so much as I have found out so many interesting things that have helped me so much likeep finding out the ordination isn’t real made me feel so much better bUtah also a bit sad as I wanted to be a nun for so long, since I was a child. My wish to commit to KG was honest and he lied to me. I found the survivors website a bit too negative I find you are fair and so well informed. Keep up the good work.
        
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        tenpel on September 18, 2013 at 8:28 am
        
        Thank you fleadle. Without you, Carol or xtranormalBuddhist and some other few who don’t dare to speak up people would be still uninformed about the dangers to get involved into NKT and what a mess NKT devotion can bring to one’s spiritual as well as mundane life!
        
        With respect to the NKT ordination. It’s a Rabjung ordination and as a Rabjung ordination it is valid at least that one is almost a novice (Getsul/Getsulma). It’s more than the lay ordination but less than a Getsul/Getsulma ordination. Although the ordination given in NKT is based on the deception it would be a real nuns or monk ordination it is still valid in what it is an “in-between” ordination. Similar to people who have donated a lot of money to NKT I would like to encourage you and everybody to still rejoice in having had the wish to become ordained and to have lived as a Rabjung. Because if one regrets the action of giving or having become ordained the regret destroys the merit created. Even if a person has donated 300.000€ to NKT and later finds out that NKT is not worth this donation, I would encourage not to regret in the act of giving but to rejoice in it. What can be regretted is the lack of wisdom or the naivety involved in one’s action. Similar you can rejoice in your wish and action to become a Rabjung ordained but regret the naivety or lack of knowledge to have believed it were a real ordination according to the Vinaya. In that way the positive actions and merits derived from it are kept and further enhanced and the negative pattern undermining it’s strength (naivety, a lack of knowledge, being uninformed, taken things blankly as being true) is weakened. In that way the positive side increases and the negative side is weakened.
        
        It’s true that NKS is all in all or at times more negative but I think this is due to that the emotions can now make their way after they have been suppressed for so long within NKT. It might be better the emotions find a way temporarily instead of being further suppressed. It might be just the start of the long term healing process. A person who got used to suppress his or her anger in NKT and to pretend to be a somewhat controlled person with a high level of practice might feel a relief to find an environment that does not encourage to pretend to be a “pure practitioner” but to be as you are at the moment. This might undermine the atmosphere in NKS but I think it is rather natural and maybe even needed from a psychological point of view. (I remember two sessions I witnessed as a guest in anonymous narcoticus, at times it got very negative, but I felt it helps the people to understand themselves better if there was space to express their emotions.) I know some people who were unhappy with NKS and left but at the end they acknowledged that it was important to their healing process. Also NKS doesn’t have a professional counselor …
        
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        tenpel on September 18, 2013 at 8:31 am
        
        BTW in the Survivors forum recently someone said that NKT can spread so much all over the world is also because there are too few people who were harmed who have the courage to speak in public about what happened to them.
        
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        tenpel on September 16, 2013 at 8:45 pm
        
        I agree with you Fleadle, both in experience and view.
        Thank you for your time and effort.
        
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        tenpel on September 16, 2013 at 9:03 pm
        
        With respect to the sexual abuse within NKT covered up by KG himself in both of his successor’s cases until it was made public, Mike could consider the isolation of NKT from all other Sangha and Buddhist masters based on this analysis:
        
        As to the first point: Scandalous activities seem to thrive when individual communities isolate themselves—socially, ideologically, or in other ways—from the bonds of broader communities, both religious and secular. In such an atmosphere, assumptions tend to go unchallenged not because they are seen as valid but because they are not seen at all. They are just taken for granted. Scandals feed off isolation in another way too: when individuals within a community who try to raise questions about how things are done and what gets done are isolated—marginalized, discredited, even banned—the concerns they raise are readily dismissed. Sooner or later, this way of doing things proves detrimental to all concerned.
        
        http://www.tricycle.com/feature/sex-sangha-again
        
        Why does Mike not know about that two deputies of Geshe-la, his two “heart sons”, were involved in sexual abuse? At the end Kelsang Gyatso hat even openly to state about and to his “heart son” – who was once seen as quite progressed on the path and officially been announced to be Geshe-la’s successor:
        
        »[..] You have destroyed the NKTs reputation and the power of all NKT Resident Teachers. Through your actions so many ordained Teachers have disrobed following your view which is opposite to Buddhist view – you tried to spread a sexual lineage which you yourself created. Even in society a Teacher cannot have sex with students. After you left many people confessed to me that you had had sex with them. You had sex with so many students and through your deceptive actions one nun tried to commit suicide because of your sexual behaviour towards her. Because the NKTs reputation and power of the Resident Teachers has been destroyed by your activities now the future development of the NKT will be difficult both materially and spiritually. However, I myself and all my students are working hard to recover the damage you made. We will never allow your sexual lineage to spread in this world. I have no connection with you. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso«.
        
        BTW, in this statement Geshe-la – as always – accuses others and blames them. No self-critical though what he did wrong that this could happen. He does not even slightly consider what damage his own cover ups and actions of accusing the victims and witnesses who reported the abuse to him (without that he acted to stop it) created. In all crises he has, he accuses others and directly or indirectly states he has done no faults. For more details see here: http://info-buddhism.com/Western_Shugden_Society_unlocked.html#NKTDL
        
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        tenpel on September 17, 2013 at 10:46 am
        
        The issue of good and bad experiences
        
        However, you have not acknowledged the other side: there are very, very many people who have and continue to get tremendous benefit, happiness and peace of mind from the teachings, classes and retreats provided by the NKT. These are a mixed group of people, many of them highly intelligent, wise and rooted. Are they all being fooled? And to what purpose? Is not their experience valid as well?
        
        Dear Mike, I will gradually go through your comments, and add my thoughts here and there. With respect to good and bad experiences. Good and bad are relative and experiences are dependent arisings. Good experiences don’t invalidate bad experiences, bad experiences don’t invalidate good experiences, both can coexist. The question is rather how did they arise and what do they actually prove?
        
        I discussed this issue of good experiences on my German cult site: http://buddhistische-sekten.de/Kriterien2.html#Gutes
        People made good experiences with Shoko Asahara and his AUM cult too. People made good experiences (“the best experiences in my whole life”) even in the Jonestown cult (were most members killed themselves in a mass suicide). Robert Jay Lifton reports in “Destroying the World to Save It: Aum Shinrikyo, Apocalyptic Violence, and the New Global Terrorism”, Owl Books, 2000, that Asahara’s followers made very good experiences with him, and how difficult – impossible – it is for most of them now to bring their own inner experiences “in line” with the sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway and several other crimes Asahara commit. Liften concludes: “It’s not always easy to distinguish a compassionate of a murderous Guru.” This is obvious even from the fact that many spiritual leaders (including the Dalai Lama) and many politicians too who were contacted by Asahara before he became known as a murderous Guru, had no problem to be photographed with him or to say some nice phrases about his activities …
        
        If one can make good experiences with a dog tooth seeing it as a tooth of a Buddha, it is also possible to make good experiences with a crimonal, beguiler, psychopathic CEO or even Hitler. So what does this experience tell? Similar, one can make bad experiences with Jesus, Mother Theresa or the Dalai Lama but what does this tell?
        
        I think the safest way is to start from dependent arising. The experiences arises due to many causes and conditions, and there are parts that are stronger connected to the experiencer and parts that are stronger connected to the contributing factors of one’s experience. E.g. a woman having desire to seduce a lama, the lama misunderstands it, is kind in response but this feeds the woman’s desire to seduce him and in her rises hope to be successful, finally when the lama understands this game, and rejects the attempt the woman feels put off/ put down and is hurt, angry etc. (I know a case where this happened …)
        
        With respect to NKT the main problem starts with the all pervasive attitude that all good experiences and qualities are attributed to the spiritual power and “purity” of Kelsang Gyatso or his blessings, and the “purity” of NKT “this stainless path” and all faults are attributed to the individual, who has either impure view, negative karmw or too many negative emotions. This is one of the basis “brain washing” tools. This is an unspoken rule you can say but a very existing pattern within NKT.
        
        In this way the distinctions of what derives from what, and what is the cause for what is already distorted from the very start. People can make good experiences based on their own ripening of karma, Buddha nature, qualities, faith even when projected on a murderous guru like Shoko Asahara or a totally crazy politician like Hitler. This does not say much about the object of faith or one’s devotion but more about the mind of the experiencer. The example given in the scripture with the dog tooth illustrates this well. However, between and inanimate tooth and an animate sentient being, a misleading guru, is a big difference, because the latter can really mislead oneself and one’s spiritual path based on his or her own mind poisons. That’s why to be very very careful whom one entrusts to is greatly stressed in the scriptures.
        
        There is more to be discussed about this. This just for today as food for thoughts. I might write a more balanced post about this at the weekend.
        
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        Maik108 on September 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm
        
        Dear Tenpel,
        Thanks, yes I agree with you, experiences are the result of dependent arising. So therefore the good experiences of NKT practitioners do not prove that the tradition or the teachers are good or special at all. But then, as you say, neither do the negative or bad experiences of people prove that the teachers or tradition are bad or evil. This is why, I think, we need to distinguish between facts and personal accounts in a debate like this. Both are important, but both need to be viewed separately.
        
        As for Shoko Asahara, it is true that he was viewed by some as a pure Guru and that many spent some happy times under his ‘guidance’. However, I think the comparison is unfair. While I understand your view that GKG is a fully-fledged cult leader and the NKT is a sect, it nonetheless functions as a Buddhist organisation; in other words, what is being taught and promoted enlarge is compassion for others, loving your friends and enemies, respecting your parents, awareness of death, understanding the nature of reality and so on (Of course you don’t agree that these things are taught correctly, but I feel that is besides the point right here). Shoko Asahara instead openly promoted severe distrust and even hatred towards Jews, Japanese and all sorts of other religious groups, made up his own doomsday prophecies concerning them and taught very little in the way of love or compassion. I feel therefore that the function of the two is tremendously different.
        
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        tenpel on September 17, 2013 at 3:43 pm
        
        Dear Mike,
        yes, I agree with you: “But then, as you say, neither do the negative or bad experiences of people prove that the teachers or tradition are bad or evil.”
        
        That’s why the analysis must start from what forms the main causes of bad and good experiences, are the main causes more connected to oneself or are the bases for bad experiences more connected to the object one’s experience is based upon? Although we can always argue, that the main causes lie right within ourselves – which is very true – there are also factors in the “outside world” that contribute to one’s experiences, for instance there is a difference if one follows the Buddha or Devadatta, both have quite of a different mind set. However, Devadatta can not harm an Arhat because the latter has abandoned the causes for harm but Devadatta can misguide those who have not enough wisdom or merit etc.
        
        As for Shoko Asahara, it is true that he was viewed by some as a pure Guru and that many spent some happy times under his ‘guidance’. However, I think the comparison is unfair.
        
        You got the key point I wanted to say. I agree also with you that this comparision is unfair because Asahara “abused the faith” of his students for a violent and murderous agenda while (according to my and other’s opinion) Kelsang Gyatso ‘only’ “abuses the faith” of his students to expand his “empire” – though of course he and his students say and are convinced it’s not “empire building” but an act of compassion to spread NKT all over the world … It was just an illustration of that there is no certainty what experiences prove. I use usually extreme examples to illustrate the meaning I want to convey.
        
        While I understand your view that GKG is a fully-fledged cult leader and the NKT is a sect, it nonetheless functions as a Buddhist organisation; in other words, what is being taught and promoted enlarge is compassion for others, loving your friends and enemies, respecting your parents, awareness of death, understanding the nature of reality and so on (Of course you don’t agree that these things are taught correctly, but I feel that is besides the point right here). Shoko Asahara instead openly promoted severe distrust and even hatred towards Jews, Japanese and all sorts of other religious groups, made up his own doomsday prophecies concerning them and taught very little in the way of love or compassion. I feel therefore that the function of the two is tremendously different.
        
        For me and others NKT functions as a harmful group, making people dependent, isolating them from the main stream Buddhist world, including friends, family and parents, undermining their self-esteem, intuition, discriminating abilities, increasing fear, guilt, aversion and attachment and on top of it extreme pride. (A Buddhist teacher once said: NKT has perverted the Dharma by adding hope and fear to it.) For you (and others) NKT teaches and promotes compassion, reality,…, but does NKT live up to these teachings? What about the contradiction between the understanding of dependent arising and putting the blame always on others, putting it always on one outer single person like the Dalai Lama, failed NKT deputies, failed NKT resident teachers ect? What about the compassion within NKT to the sick, poor, exhausted NKT followers? Ex-NKT openly can tell you a lot about having missed compassionate actions right within NKT – not to speak about compassion to outside NKT world …
        
        Although it is not as strong as in the AUM cult, in NKT there is also manifest promotion of distrust to other Buddhist schools. For instance, Tibetan Buddhism in general is portrayed by NKT as being “degenerated” while NKT is portrayed to being “pure” (we discussed this with sources, e.g. the ordination talk from Geshe-la, here already on the blog). NKT spreads hate against the Dalai Lama by calling him a “Liar”, saffron robed Muslim”, “hypocrite”, “evil and cruel” or is this non-violent speech? All people who were witnesses of the NKT protests 2008-10 agreed that this was aggression coming from the protesters they felt. As a witness and participant of the more peaceful protests in 1996/8, I can also confirm that I was disturbed by the aggression of the UK NKT monks who organized the protests. I think it is safe to say that the Western Shugden Society website is mainly an expression of anger and aversion and mainly hate because it wants to harm in all ways the reputation and name of the Dalai Lama, character assassination is a term that describes what’s going on there. (Contrary to this the Dalai Lama never said something bad about NKT or Kelsang Gyatso …) Also the truth-website of NKT is not an expression of love and compassion or what the NKT blogs tell about the New Kadampa Survivor forum and their “disgruntled” ex-members 😉
        
        In NKT there is also a mild version – which still strongly functions – of a doomsday mood: “we are in degenerate times”, “now is the time”, “we don’t know how long Geshe-la lives, take the Vajrayogini empowerment right now” …
        
        However, I agree it is possible in NKT to extend one’s love and compassion to a certain degree but then it is blocked to expand further due to wrong views, an excessive identification with NKT (group narcissism), strong attachment to NKT, subtle or gross aversion or fear towards other Buddhist schools, pride and sectarianism. The question is rather does the benefit overpower the harm or does the harm overpower the benefits?
        
        I see NKT rather like a drug: you have short term benefits (for sure) and long term harm – at least if you really dive deep into NKT and you give your life and heart to NKT – make a total commitment – like Fleadle, Carol, I and so many others have done. If someone is more on the periphery, the benefits might be greater than the harm … so it depends …
        
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        Maik108 on September 18, 2013 at 8:42 am
        
        Dear Tenpel,
        
        Thanks for your reply and your time.
        I agree with some of your points but I seem to derive at different conclusions. We can always discuss which guru may or may not be qualified, or who may or may not deceive us. This still comes down only to personal experience. As you know, many people feel the same way about HH Dalai Lama as you feel about Geshe Kelsang. This reminds me of a story a friend told me (not to get side-tracked, but it may be relevant), he is a devotee of a Vaishnava Hindu guru named Gaura Lila Das. For many years, his guru would only relate to him in what appeared to be fits of insane, raging anger! My friend was often very frightened, but stuck with him anyway. After some years, my friend finally couldn’t take it anymore and confronted Gaura Lila. In tears, he told him how hurt, betrayed and abused he felt. After listening to him, Gaura Lila broke into a fit of hysterical laughter, embraced his disciple and said to him ‘my friend, do not you know that these actions are my deepest eternal love for you?’ Since then, even though the Guru often continues to appear angry or wrathful, my friend only feels blessed by it.
        
        This story is not meant to try to turn bad experiences people have had into good ones, nor to ignore them. It simply illustrates the extremely personal nature of the guru, how he is viewed, how people perceive him/her, how qualified or unqualified he or she appears, and so on. In the above case, one could conclude that my friend has simply become a brainwashed doormat – which indeed would probably be the opinion of most westerners. On the other hand, we can look at the stories of the Mahasiddhas, such as Naropa, and find far more extreme forms of guru devotion.
        
        Sorry, back to the main discussion…! You and Feadle have often mentioned that you felt the NKT tried to isolate you from your families. This is very odd to me, as I experience the complete opposite to this. In fact, at times the encouragement to be with our families and take care of them seems almost too strong! As for teachers, especially ordained teachers, I of course have no personal experience of this. But I know that my two main previous ordained teachers as well as the ones I have now are all very close with their family, visit them frequently and encourage strong family bonds.
        
        You said that you feel the NKT has more often lacked in compassionate actions than it has acted compassionately, and as an example you gave the demonstrations in which HH Dalai Lama was called a liar (I personally agree with the need to demonstrate but not with the way it was done, but this is perhaps a subject for a different discussion). At one of the demonstrations I attended, the people who had been at HH Dalai Lama’s teaching started physically attacking us, openly threatening to kill us, cursed us and spat at us (and I am not exaggerating at all, this is documented). So yes, it is true, the western shugden people had been shouting ‘Dalai Lama, stop lying!’ but not one finger was raised. So it was interesting that a group of people, who just came out of a teaching on compassion, started physically attacking the WS guys, who in comparison were rather peaceful.
        
        You are correct, as far as I know, that HH Dalai Lama never directly said anything negative about GKG. Without getting in to a political discussion, I would add that his representatives, such as Bob Thurman, have said many negative and personal things. Also, as far as I know, GKG has said nothing personally offensive to HH Dalai Lama, but has indeed said that he has caused problems in the Gelug community and has lied.
        
        Keeping in mind our attitude of questioning both the teachings and the teachers, I see absolutely no problem with GKG doing so. You do not agree with his point of view of course, but that’s a different issue. HH Dalai Lama is certainly not above scrutiny and needs to be questioned as thoroughly as anybody else. As for the WSS, I also believe it is made up of mostly NKT members, but certainly not exclusively. I met a group of Tibetan monks and we had a chat about their experiences. One of them wept as he told us about how he had been banished from his monastery, his family thrown out of their house and all of them were forced to flee, as their old neighbors, friends and Sangha threw rocks at them! And all just because he practiced dorje shugden. Very, very sad.
        
        The book ‘A Great Deception’ is disgusting, absolutely. It should be revoked immediately, and I have often written to centers asking them to do this. I think (and hope) it is slowly starting to disappear and the issue is calming down.
        (If GKG had a part in it, I would have absolutely no problem saying ‘dear Geshe-la, this was a mistake!’ Some people would, of course… I know a few people who had a part in writing the book, one is an NKT nun and the others are not NKT).
        
        As for the doomsday-quality, this has not been my experience at all. However, I agree with the whole ‘now is the time’ concept and think it is completely Buddhist. But this refers to the fact that we have a very short and very precious human life and should use this opportunity spiritually. It is a very positive attitude, I think.
        
        Yes, there are many people who excessively identify with the NKT as a group (we call them dharma-nerds). I cannot speak much about them as I tend not to associate too much with them. I actually just wish them peace and release from their clinging to the group.
        
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        fleadle on September 18, 2013 at 10:12 pm
        
        Dear Maik, I attended many of the demonstrations and I also witnessed the violent and angry reaction of DL supporters, and to be honest I don’t blame them. I wonder how angry we would have been if people stood outside our centre’s during a teaching and shouted liar about our Guru. I only witnessed Tibetans shouting. I also met some Tibetans at the protest who was grateful for the effort we made, despite this we were wrong. We went against charity rules about not getting involved in politics this is the reason KG tried to hide the fact it was a NKT organised. The protests did nothing but cause harm and since leaving the NKT I have looked into the DS issue and it seems now the DL had little choice in his actions though I do feel for those who suffered violence for their following DS this though is not part of the DLs plan. It is strange if your try to talk about the protests now inNKT centres it’s all hushed up, they hid their opinion of the DL. I know others wrote different parts of a ‘Great deception’ KG had a lot to do with it and in it the DL is insulted many times, many historical facts are misrepresented. If the protests were such a great cause why the hush up, why does KG keep his name off the book? He covers himself because he knows his anger and pride concerning the DL went too far. I never said I was kept from my family but my teacher did suggest visiting them was pointless and a waste of time. Kyenrabs opinion of family is well known, he described the birth of his first Grand daughter as an example of the terrible nature of samsara, nice! Listening to what you say and what I’ve heard from others who live outside centres makes me realise how different those outside are treated compared to residents, but then they have less control over you. When you talk about Compassion in the NKT I have been shown much love and Compassion when I was very ill but from everyone but my teacher who is a well known senior monk described by KG as the perfect monk. To me he behaved like the old teachers of the past like Naropa, not out of a wish to help but as a bullying child. Maybe some like this
        wrathful technique but most want to be treated with respect and caring. To me he was a bully. I recognise you seem to have a good teacher and I know there are kind hearted open minded teachers in the. NKT but these seem few and far between. I am glad you are able to challenge certain things without rebuke and I hope some changes occur
        
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        tenpel on September 19, 2013 at 12:19 am
        
        I attended many of the demonstrations and I also witnessed the violent and angry reaction of DL supporters, and to be honest I don’t blame them.
        
        There were people angry only at times, for instance in France 2008 I could not see any angry response to the proselyting and intimidating NKT protesters, as far as I know it was similar calm in Nürnberg. Even what the NKT calls a “mob of thousand Dalai Lama supporters” in New York, there were some Tibetans who got angry but there were also Tibetans who tried to calm angry Tibetans down. One can see this in the videos NKT put on YouTube. Although the angry response is wrong of course, if in school someone calls your mother a whore you might risk to get some angry response (like when Zidane headbutted Materazzi in extra time of the 2006 World Cup), it is similar when NKT calls in front of the Tibetans their leader with megaphones and banners a “liar” and “hypocrite” overpowering the places and gatherings of those who want to listen and heed the advice of the Dalai Lama with noisy protests. For me it is quite nasty: first you practice name calling to a person people want to see and whom they love while they are close to him and than you record their angry response on video claiming on YouTube and elsewhere that those who used abusive speech were “attacked by a mob of thousands of angry Tibetans” … For Tibetans (in which name the NKT claimed to speak) the Dalai Lama has a great meaning. NKT cannot even bare that some individuals like David Cutshaw or I speak up not to speak if we would launch a similar international media campaign against NKT 😉 However, we might go into the wrong direction by counting who did more wrong. I think Barbara O’Brian found a good middle way in going through this issue: http://buddhism.about.com/b/2008/07/18/the-battle-of-sixth-avenue.htm
        
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        fleadle on September 19, 2013 at 9:05 pm
        
        Dear Tenpel, I was not suggesting that all the Tibetans there were angry or violent just that the only aggression I saw was coming from them and that I didn’t blame them for their anger. I want at all the protests,I wasnt at New York for example. I feel your defending when I wasn’t attacking anyone. The article you link is good, I remember at the time of the protests thinking this doesn’t effect us why are we doing this but I had strong devotion to DS so I felt like I was defending him but she is right we were used.
        
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        tenpel on September 19, 2013 at 10:18 pm
        
        Dear Fleadle, of course you didn’t it was just an additional note in order to balance this topic. It cannot be denied that some got angry … When I added this comment it was meant rather for the uninformed reader who might have read mainly what NKT / WSS said about it or the videos and comments they posted on YouTube. I have always in mind that this is a public forum, and my aim to balance what NKT / WSS spread …
        
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        Maik108 on September 20, 2013 at 6:48 am
        
        Dear Tenpel and Feadle,
        Thanks for your reply. I have little time as well, sometimes my posts are rather long as I am sitting in an office and writing in between other tasks…;-)
        I find some discrepancies in what you both have said, in the sense that certain actions taken (or avoided) by NKT are deemed negative by you while similar actions taken (or avoided) by HH Dalai Lama are accepted without scrutiny. Two examples: 1) Bob Thurman, for practical purposes, often represents HH. He represents the Tibet House, assists HH in various talks and teachings; so, he may not officially represent HH Dalai Lama, but then neither does GKG represent WSS officially. In practice, he may do. 2) You both say that NKT members have vented lots of anger and abuse at HH DL and his followers, yet the violence and abuse caused by some followers of His Holiness is deemed acceptable and understandable by you. Of course I disagree with this kind of argument. Similarly I could say that it is a small portion of NKTers who act ‘violently’ and angrily. So in order to continue our discussion, we need to be much more fair in our observations and, more importantly, our own opinions and conclusions based upon those observations.
        
        I cannot speak out about the passage you quoted concerning Dalai Lama being a saffron-robed Muslim. You may be interested to know that I had some dialogue with a representative of the WSS about two years ago and I brought up this issue (among others). I stated that I myself – as well as many friends of mine associated with the NKT – found the book and specifically these kinds of statements childish, insulting and below the belt. He tried to argue the case but without much fact or logic and eventually he stopped replying to me. So yes, clearly the WSS organisation was/is badly run and stands on shaky ground.
        
        I don’t recall Kyenrab reading out that passage, but I’m sure its possible. As to whether or not GKG wrote the passage, I can’t say either way and as we have no proof of this, we cannot really say. As to Feadle’s comment about Kyenrab, I cannot disagree, but can say that he spends lots of time with his son and family whenever I see him at festivals.
        
        As to the demonstrations, briefly: as it is open for everyone to see that HH Dalai Lama banned the practice of dorje shugden (informally in talks and formally on paper), I find it very strange that you do not question this action and see clearly that it was a serious mistake which caused a lot of harm (as I found out from the Tibetans I had met). You said in your post that HH Dalai Lama should not be accused of lying as his stand on dorje shugden is simply a different view. But if it was just a different view, no ban would have been necessary. In this specific case, I believe (with the current info I have) that GKG and WSS expressed their view and freedom of speech and were prosecuted for doing so. Dalai Lama instead didn’t merely express an opinion, but formulated a ban. While he says he did not do so at times, he is on record for all to see enforcing such a ban.
        
        With all due respect to HH DL, in the spirit of questioning our teachers and thinking for ourselves, it is very clear to me that he made a very big mistake and there was a need to speak out against it. How this was done can be discussed and criticized of course.
        
        I may not have as much time to write, but if you respond I will read it. Meanwhile, thank you mainly to Tenpel and Feadle for your many thoughts and replies and your time. There is indeed much to consider and think about.
        
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        fleadle on September 20, 2013 at 8:07 pm
        
        Dear Maik, I do not necessarily condone the violence or anger displayed by DL supporters but I understand they were provoked as I also understand the anger many of us at the protest felt, since leaving though I have read a lot of background into the history of DS and in doing this I can understand why the ban was necessary. Whether a Buddha or spirit if we are honest DS is obviously a sectarian figure, threatening harm to those who read other traditions texts it’s hardly a good position and dispute all this we were never effected by the ban and we made matters worse for both sides. I had great faith inDS in fact I feel he helped me escape the NKT making me feel now he probably is a spirit who helps who prays to him but there is a price this is my personal experience. I strongly advice you to read his history and then you will see I hope why so many wanted the practice banned.
        As for Kyenrab I don’t say he doesn’t care for his family but he seems out messages which I believe give a clue as to the NKTs real agenda, such ad telling people not to trust their instincts this is basically ttelling people not to trust themselves. I can’t speak for the mistakes the DL had made he is not my Guru I didn’t devote 10 years of my life to him or make ordination vows to him. It’s not important to me what he had done only what KG has done as this is someone I trusted,I devoted my time and money to and I was lied to, I spent a year after I diss robed feeling so scared about going to hell and now I find out that wasn’t true I had every right to hand my vows back they weren’t even full ordination vows. Tell me if that had happened to you would you be happy with him? My view is very one-sided I’ll agree with you because after 10 years of devotion I was abused, put in debt, lied to, put down ans made to feel like a leper for disrobing. I have been treated like cheap by people who have trained in love and compassion if this tradition works, if the teachings work why do so many leave angry and hurt, why are so many in long term therapy to help them recover from there time in the NKT. I am sure other traditions have problems I wouldn’t know I was only in the NKT. All I do know is the way I and others were treated is nothing to do with the Buddha’s path. It is good that you spoke out about the book’a great deception’ but please don’t think this is separate from KG, wss is also KG’s baby he had the last day, he controls it all. I know this for a fact because I know those who were by his side while he made certain ddecisions. It is so common in the NKT for people to see problems and issues but yet to see it as any ones problem but KG’s. I guess we desperately want someone in this world who is pure, who we can trust and can hand our life over to. I don’t blame anyone for wanting to protect that idea but it is ridiculous to think an organisation is faulty but the person at the top is squeaky clean. In the end I believeBuddha was showing us we can only rely on ourselves. The guru we rely on is the one within ourselves, it is the guru we will become when we learn to look within and find our true. Nature.
        
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        tenpel on September 18, 2013 at 11:16 pm
        
        Dear Mike, there is still a lot you have written I have not yet read and will read in the next days or so, only brief while glancing through this comment
        
        I would add that his representatives, such as Bob Thurman, have said many negative and personal things. Also, as far as I know, GKG has said nothing personally offensive to HH Dalai Lama, but has indeed said that he has caused problems in the Gelug community and has lied.
        
        Robert Thurman is no representative of the Dalai Lama, when did HHDL appoint Robert Thurman to be the Dalai Lama’s representative? The representatives of the Dalai Lama are all Tibetans as far as I know.
        
        With respect to your claim that GKG had “said nothing personally offensive to HH Dalai Lama” the following words taken from the “Heart Sutra” or “core manifest” of the NKT protests against the Dalai Lama, words that were read aloud by his deputy and successor of that time, Gen Kelsang Khyenrab, at Colgate University 22 April 2008, are highly likely only written by GKG himself and nobody else than him. The reasons for this assumption are: 1) there is no political move without GKG approval 2) the phrasing, black-and-white atmosphere, and the style of accusation of others is exactly the same language and style as in other documents written and signed by him or his verbal language when he attacks others 3) NKT never has denied that KG has written it 4) In the DorjeShugden com website, Tibetan Lamas were discussing the document and all of them attributed it to GKG as the author. They were of the opinion that the anger expressed in it is detrimental to their cause and asked him to slow down his tone. So what did Geshe Kelsang Gyatso say in this document – or in the highly unlikely case he had not written it, what words he approved to be said by his representative, successor and deputy?:
        
        »According to some sources, you were born in a Muslim family. When you were a child who did not know anything, some ignorant Tibetans acting as representatives of the Tibetan Government chose that boy as the reincarnation of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. Since that time, that boy wore saffron robes, and the local people jokingly nicknamed you as ‘The Saffron Robed Muslim’. In this way, you received the position of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. Because of this, many people now keep your photograph on their shrines and worship you.«
        
        »The entire Tibetan community have lost their trust, peace and harmony, and are experiencing a very dangerous situation. The source of all these problems is you.«
        
        »… All these horrible situations have developed through the power of your evil actions. This is our valid evidence to prove that you are not Buddhist. Because of this, we also believe that you are the saffron robed Muslim. Throughout your life you have pretended to be a Buddhist holy being giving Buddhist teachings that you have stolen from Trijang Rinpoche. By doing this, you have cheated people throughout the world. In summary, it is clear that your real nature is cruel and very evil.« Details see: “21st Century Buddhist Dictator – The Dalai Lama”
        
        Never ever you could hear any angry voice like this from HH the Dalai Lama. When asked about these protests in France 2008 when the voices and megaphones shouting “liar” “prometteur” of the NKT protesters were still hearable during the Dalai Lama’s teachings, the Dalai Lama replied: “Actually, I enjoy their freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is so important! Also maybe they have some holidays, and can relax a bit. So I am happy for them.”
        In Australia where NKT protesters were similar aggressive and noisy he replied when asked: “I don’t know why they call me a liar. I am not a liar. If you want to know why they say this, ask them.” In no way he said anything bad about NKT protesters, NKT or GKG, while they threw abusive and harsh words on him. Everybody can confirm this who was present …
        
        More soon, when I read all of your comments. It’s quite time consuming. I don’t take on the effort to convince you but because this is a public forum and this blog was created to counter the misrepresentations of the NKT and their front groups such as Dorje Shugden Supporter Community and Western Shugden Society. In that context it might be worth to see how NKT lied already in 1996/8: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and New Kadampa Tradition What NKT does is so dissimilar to what Buddhism is all about and how the Dalai Lama acts. It’s amazing to see that people cannot see the difference …
        
        BTW, it is a wrong accusation and confusion if Kelsang Gyatso calls HH the Dalai Lama a liar because His Holiness holds a different view on Shugden than KG. A different view is not a lie but a different view. Moreover, the Shugden worship has already created a lot of problems before the Dalai Lama spoke up, or is it not a problem that the Shugdenpas threatened those Gelugpas who practice or touch Nyingma texts with the punishment by Shugden as explicitly stated in the Yellow Book?
        
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        Maik108 on September 8, 2013 at 8:15 pm
        
        Sorry, I accidentally replied directly to tenpel ( I think)… meant to reply to feadle! 😉
        
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        dharmaanarchist on September 15, 2013 at 7:22 pm
        
        Mmh, don’t you think that time will solve the NKT problem?
        
        Because after all, KG is rather old now, isn’t he? And there is not someone with sufficient dharma knowledge or the ability to confer initiations or authority in the organisation.
        
        So I suspect with KG gone the organisation will more and more drift into dilletantism in-fighting and chaos without KG’s ruling hand and will quickly lose it’s appeal to people.
        
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        fleadle on September 15, 2013 at 10:49 pm
        
        Absolutely I believe KG’s death will mark the end of the NKT, their May be break off groups but without a strong person to take over its doomed. My worry though is although this means no new people will be able to be dragged in alot of people will be left high and dry. Old people with no savings and no support so many will be left without help and that worries me but I will be glad when it is gone for good and can do no more harm. But for the people I knew and cared for who will perceive a great loss for them I’m so sorry.
        
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        tenpel on September 8, 2013 at 10:12 am
        
        Possibly the main difference between my view and yours, is that I do not believe this to be an NKT-phenomenon. It is a human trait that can be found in all kinds of groups or institutions. Having had lengthy associations with the Vaishnava tradition ISKCON and some with the FPMT, Diamond Way and Triratna traditions, I have to conclude that this kind of terrible behaviour is to be found everywhere.
        
        Hi Mike, indeed this is also the main difference I would utterly disagree with you. While I am affiliated and live/lived in different Buddhist communities since I left NKT, based on my own observation and experience, though there are always some type of human failings, there is a huge difference to NKT. In NKT the faultline starts right from the top, from a person who extended his self to the organisation (or “tradition”) he created, and where there is no place for any other living Buddhist authority than him. ISCON and DW or Triratna are similar to NKT in having cult like tendencies, however, FPMT has not. A case like in NKT where the deputy (Gen Samden) can abuse nuns and the head of the organisation (Kelsang Gyatso) threatens the victims or witnesses instead to removing Samden from power wouldn’t happen within FPMT. I live since 2008 in a FPMT centre and although there are on the surface some similarities (e.g. devotion, guru approach) experiencing FPMT more deeply, there are huge differences. Though one might find points to criticize here and there (what FPMT people also do!) all in all – unlike NKT – it is IMO a very healthy organization.
        
        I lack time to explain in detail the differences but if you are interested I would take time to do so.
        
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        tenpel on September 8, 2013 at 11:48 am
        
        the following is a slightly rewritten/revised comment.
        
        I should give reasons why I said: „a person who extended his self to the organisation (or “tradition”) he created, and where there is no place for any other living Buddhist authority than him.“
        
        In June or July 2000, Geshe Kelsang answered the question „Who is NKT?“ in the front of many of his followers, including his now-deputies Dekyong and Kunzang, with „I, I am the NKT!“ So, Geshe-la himself said that he and his organisation are identical. He also spoke of „my centres“ and „my students“ that would have been stolen from him. (Contrary to that he says in the public it were „your centres“.)
        
        That there is no other living authority accepted than him (not even his still living teacher, Geshe Lhundup Sopa) is an observable fact.
        
        Briefly with respect to the differences between NKT and FPMT:
        
        In NKT you have to devote exclusively to Kelsang Gyatso as your guru, in FPMT you are free to follow any other teacher of your choice. In NKT there is no traditionally educated teacher except Kelsang Gyatso (whose Geshe degree is controversial, its not yet clear what type of degree this would be), and not any genuine Buddhist master or Buddhist scholar, yogi, fully ordained monk or nun etc is invited to teach in NKT while in FPMT there are plenty of even better educated and more knowledgeable persons, like Lharampa Geshes, than KG, and unlike Western NKT teacher, they also express their opinion if it differs from Lama Zopa Rinpoche. So there is quite of a huge diversity already at the level of the top of the hierarchy. These differences are by far more, e.g., while Kelsang Gyatso didn’t receive any teachings from any living masters for some decades now, Lama Zopa Rinpoche still receives many teachings, and transmissions, empowerments from genuine lamas of different Buddhist schools (incl. Sakya, Nyingma etc.) – btw this is also the case with HH the Dalai Lama. While in NKT there is only one singular, final living authority that cannot be challenged but must be seen as „omniscient“ and unfailing in FPMT (as well as in other healthy groups) there are many authorities that have no problem to respect and to disagree with each other.
        
        With respect to my own life within FPMT: Unlike NKT, I am welcomed even if I am no student of LZR, I am neither forced, manipulated nor pushed into a relationship or any empowerment from him. Unlike NKT I can live for free (!) and study for free (!) the highest teachings and even the study books and material is offered for free to me. All teachings by all lamas I can receive for free as a monk – even when not at all affiliated with FPMT. The only thing the FPMT Centre asks me to do is 5 hours karma-yoga a week. This is so dissimilar to the exploitation I experienced within NKT (as Fleadle nicely put it „you pay yourself for your slavery“) that when I think more closely about it I am quite shocked to see these differences. Actual being shocked was my main experience when I left NKT and learned to meet genuine masters and healthy (at least not too sick) groups: they are so different to NKT that I was sometimes overwhelmed by my feelings of this huge gap between what NKT preached and lived to be Buddhism and what I found outside of NKT. Sometimes my body even trembled because I just couldn’t believe / realize how big the differences are, and based on the new comparison, how wrong it was in NKT.
        
        However, I wouldn’t compare NKT with Nydahl, ISKCON or Triratna who have similar tendencies to NKT. Because there are similar tendencies between these three there will be similar results upon investigation.
        
        However, having said this, nevertheless, even between NKT and Nydahl there are huge differences. Personally while I would call NKT a cult and Kelsang Gyatso a fully fledged cult leader, I wouldn’t call Diamond Way a cult – besides their cult like tendencies which include elite thinking, looking down on other schools and religions – especially Islam etc., superficial teachings that serve the group’s and leaders’ ego identity, sectarianism, or that DW – like NKT – proclaim to be the sole inheritors and the only pure representatives of traditions with a good and big name that earned much respect in the past (NKT=Kadampa, Nydahl=Vajrayana and Kagyue) …, I wouldn’t call DW a cult because compared with NKT it is rather easy to leave DW and Nydahl and to continue somewhere else without a too big damage, and although Nydahl has some manipulative skills (IMO) at least he is honest about his own opinion and unlike NKT he doesn’t say something in public that is much of a difference from what he says behind the scene as Kelsang Gyatso does. That’s why it is more easy for newcomers to see and recognize Nydahl’s limitations, while in NKT there is this allpervasive duplicity that makes it very difficult to judge Kelsang Gyatso and NKT because different „truths“ exist around each subject.
        
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        peter on September 8, 2013 at 12:23 pm
        
        Yes, Scherer is a disciple of Nydahl. That’s why this particular piece seems quite telling, because although he is generally sympathetic, he nevertheless highlights how certain “obscurations” in the Lama may become exaggerated in the wider sangha.
        
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        tenpel on September 8, 2013 at 4:38 pm
        
        Yes, true, he gives a lot of insight into Diamond Way and it is also very interesting and worth reading his papers!
        
        It might be also worthwhile to consider what he highlights here: the spread of exaggerations of what a lama says in the wider Sangha. (Quite of a common phenomenon.)
        
        Nevertheless, for me, Scherer does not really explore the existing criticism about Nydahl and reasons for this criticism but washes it away by labeling it or the critics themselves (.e.g. Ruch) as “biased”.
        
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        tenpel on September 8, 2013 at 8:27 am
        
        Thank you fleadle for you open and honest reply.
        
        I can only agree with you.
        
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        Maik108 on September 9, 2013 at 6:49 pm
        
        Dear Tenpel,
        There are so many points being raised here, I’m afraid I’m not able to go into everything all at once.
        
        Here are just some thoughts in response to your recent posts, please excuse me if they are somewhat scattered.
        I accept your experiences and am interested to hear about them. I have to say that I have not had those sorts of experiences at all, at least not to the extreme extent that you have had. That also includes a handful of close friends of mine who work/teach in the organisation. Based on this, I feel this discussion should, or needs to, be split into two separate segments: personal experiences on one side (which include experiences with teachers, the guru, the practice, the centers, etc) and facts (how the institution is run/set up, qualifications of teachers, historical facts, etc)
        
        I will first consider some of the facts you have mentioned. You state that the NKT is a cult and has a fully fledged cult leader. As I understand you base this on the fact that the NKT only has one ‘head’, i.e. founder and root-guru; that other teachers from the same lineage are not invited or accepted to teach in NKT centers or at their events; that followers or adherents are forced to accept GKG as their exclusive guru; that questioning the teachings, decisions or methods are met with severe anger, suppression or dismissal.
        
        To go through these: Yes, it is true that the NKT has only one ‘head’, one lineage-holder and one director. I also have no problem believing that he said ‘I am the NKT’; he has often said things like that. When he gave his last teaching as director in 2009, he also said ‘The NKT is my heart’. My thoughts: this does not make it cultish in my oppinion. It does make it different from the way most other buddhist groups are set up, and it may bring with it some problems, but it doesn’t imply cultish behaviour. As for the ‘supreme authority’ of the NKT, this has always simply been Buddha Shakyamuni in my view. It is to Shakyamuni that practitioners go for refuge, he is seen as the founder and all teachings are (normally) refered back to him. You may argue that nobody is encouraged to study the Dharmapada; this is true, and I would personally encourage people to study it.
        
        It is true, as far as I know, that other teachers of the same lineage (i.e. Gelugpa/Kadampa), who are not part of the NKT are not invited to teach. I believe it has happened a couple of times in the last few years, and the people who had made the invite were reprimanded for doing so. This is a subject I often question and wonder about. I find it slightly strange. I know that their reasoning is to avoid confusion; this is a sentiment I do not agree with and see no reason to babysit people in that way. Having said that, it also does not warrant to conclude that the tradition is a cult.
        
        I know that in the past this was not the case, as you know. Manjushri institute was more or less run by Lama Yeshe, and even up to the end of the 80s, many different teachers were invited to teach there. The fact that GKG and his disciples decided to split from the mainstream FPMT and found the NKT is not cultish either. Btw., I am good friends with a handful of people (most of them from Canada) who are active practitioners in both the NKT and the FPMT, holding Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa and Geshe Kelsang in equally high regard. According to them, they are all welcomed warmly in both traditions. It is however not true that all NKT practitioners are welcomed warmly into the FPMT. Aside from my own encounters, two of which were severely hostile (aside from being cursed at, I was physically pushed out of a room where an event was taking place; this was a group in London, ca. 10 years ago), there are Gelug temples all over the world – many of them under the unbrella of the FPMT – that have signs on the door saying ‘No students of GKG are welcome’. There is not a single NKT center with such a sign towards students of any other group.
        
        (I have nothing against the FPMT, I am a big admirer of the organisation and its teachers)
        
        Its true that many somewhat deluded people with cultish tendencies are active teachers in the NKT and they probably tell their students that they must chose GKG as their ultimate super guru. Some of them even suggest that the NKT is the only pure tradition of dharma left in the world. This is ridiculous and I wish it wouldn’t happen.
        However: my own teachers have never behaved in this shameful way. So maybe I’m just very lucky. They have often given me good advise about my practice. When talking about things like Guru Yoga, they would often ask me who my Guru is, in order to help me intergrate this into my practice. No teacher of mine ever suggested GKG needs to be my guru. We would often also talk very joyfully about people like Lama Yeshe, Geshe Rabten or even His Holiness. Therefore, the statement you make that the NKT insists on GKG being the only Guru for practitioners cannot be deemed a fact. It comes down to personal experiences.
        It is very possible that GKG does not receive teachings or empowerments anymore. I cannot comment on this.
        The conditions you mention having at your FPMT center vis-a-vis the conditions at an NKT center are indeed very different. I can really only rejoice that you have such fantastic circumstances. I have never lived as a ‘sponsored resident’ at a center, so I cannot comment. Some good friends of mine do, and some of them love it while others really don’t! Perhaps the way NKT centers are run could be improved by learning from the FPMT centers.
        
        If Geshe Kelsang’s degree is disputable, it would be impossible for me to say anything in favour or against this. As far as I know, Lama Yeshe also didn’t obtain his final Geshe-paper, nor did Je Phabonka complete all the ‘official’ training. Furthermore, there are older books by GKG with forewords by HH Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Yongzin Ling Rinpoche, as well as some older Wisdom publication booklets by Lama Yeshe which include other authors, such as GKG. All of them address Kelsang Gyatso as Geshe (on a personal note, it doesn’t matter to me very much. Maybe this is why it hasn’t affected me too much either).
        As to the general idea that the NKT is an exclusive, un-incorporating sect, I can add the following personal experience: Having grown up in Switzerland (which has a large number of Tibetan imigrants), I have often run in to various monks, nuns and lay Buddhists, mostly Gelug. In 2003, I bumped into three monks walking by Lake Zurich and we had a short chat. They asked who my main teacher was and I mentioned GKG. They all prostrated and proclaimed their admiration for him. They were not affiliated with the NKT at all. In 2008, I attended one of the demonstrations concerning the practice of Dorje Shugden. I met many Tibetans who had nothing whatsoever to do with the NKT who were demonstrating. They all embraced GKG as a bonafide teacher and accepted NKT as a valid Gelug institution.(incidentally, that was the same event where Bob Thurman started shouting at a nun, curing and insulting her, claiming that she was part of a Taliban Buddhist group).
        As to your views and comments on DW vis-a-vis NKT, I do not agree. I have absolutely no reason or will to say or spread negative things about DW or Lama Ole. I would only objectively comment on my observation, that his teachings (of which I attended three) displayed some characteristics of a) cult-like behaviour on part of the teacher and the students (Lama Ole talks with great pride about Denmark’s political nationalism, his successful fights as a boxer or his utter disgust of Islam, often met with roars of applause and whistles from his audience) and b) isolation from and exclusion of other Buddhist lines within Karma-Kagyu. The fact that he does this openly does not make it good.
        
        Please note that I have no vendetta against him or DW and I have found some very positive aspects in the tradition as well.
        
        Moving again from fact to personal opinion, I find the actual dharma teachings in GKG’s books (for example ‘Understanding the Mind’ or ‘Ocean of Nectar’) very thorough and traditional; I know you do not agree. I do not find evidence of the dharma being watered-down, twisted or misleading. If I compare the books and writing styles of, for example, GKG, Lama Yeshe, Dalai Lama, Bob Thurman, Michael Roach, Stephen Bachelor and others, they are all incredibly different from one another. There do not appear to be deeper differences in the content though, in my view.
        
        I agree with you, there are individuals who have openly declared that the NKT is the only valid or still-extant form of the Gelugpa lineage. I personally have never heard this from GKG or other teachers I respect. I think it is a ridiculous claim.
        
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        tenpel on September 9, 2013 at 6:54 pm
        
        I will read and reply later, just picked up this claim:
        
        – that have signs on the door saying ‘No students of GKG are welcome’.
        
        Do you have any proof for this? I never ever experienced any thing like this nor did I hear such things by any person so far.
        
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        dharmaanarchist on September 9, 2013 at 11:40 pm
        
        I’m sorry, but you are seriously bringing up the Dalai Lama and Michael Roach in the same sentence as a proof for different styles of valid dharma teachings?
        
        This is a joke, right?
        
        If you seriously claim that Michael Roach is a valid buddhist dharma teacher, then I find it very hard to take anything seriously that you otherwise post.
        
        By the way, the local FPMT centre here has no such “NKT people not welcome” sign. Rather the opposite, there was a rather mentally disturbed NKT “nun” hanging around there for a while and she got a lot of moral and emotional support. Apparently she has been a rather unstable individual, but what the NKT did to that woman, ordaining a psychologically unstable person, then indoctrinating her with how great GKG is, but then leaving totally alone with the emotional and life problems she had. She mentioned a few stories how horribly she had been treated by the other ordaineds at a NKT monastery in England when she tried to live there, and when she was desperate enough to return home they left her with absolutely nothing to help her with an “ordained” life at home, no guidance, no support, nothing.
        
        She stopped coming after a while, I have no idea what happened to her. I can only hope she got some qualified psychological help.
        
        Sorry, but what that woman experienced is really a disgrace for any religious order and I was rather shocked when I witnessed it.
        
        Nor has any other dharma center that I know such a sign. The only thing I ever witnessed was a Nyingma lama strongly advising a student not to get involved into a non NKT gelug center by another pro Shugden lama.
        
        Plus the NKT got kicked out of the umbrella organisation of all the buddhist groups in Germany because of their sectarian and exclusive claim on the buddhist teachings, as well as the bad blood that GKG and NKT create against another buddhist leader, the Dalai Lama. Not even Ole Nydahl managed that, even if I’ve heard that there was a point where they were ready to give DW the boot, too. I heard that in personal contact Nydahl backpedaled to an extent that they found him still manageable.
        
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        tenpel on September 10, 2013 at 8:31 am
        
        Just as a brief correction (I still didn’t have time to read Mike108’s last two comments and to comment on them), the NKT wasn’t kicked out from the German Buddhist Union (DBU), they were from the very beginning not accepted to become a member. They applied two times to become a member of the German Buddhist Union and two times it was rejected. Also the Austria Buddhist Religious Community (ÖBR) never accepted NKT as a member, when NKT tried to check if they have any chance they let them know, that they won’t be accepted.
        
        Currently there is much trouble with the Nydahl group in Germany and Austria in both Buddhist Unions.
        
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        Maik108 on September 10, 2013 at 9:25 am
        
        Dear Dharmaanarchist,
        It is not conducive to this discussion for you to pick out one name I’ve mentioned and on its basis not take what I say seriously. But of course, it is your choice. I have but only one book by Michael Roach, I don’t know an awful lot about him and am not going to judge him here at all. I’m sorry if my point was not clear; I didnt intend to compare these specific authors per se, I was implying that I find GKG’s books valid in terms of the dharma they teach. What I meant by the comparison, was that there are many authors, writing in a variety of styles: many will not work for some people while they will work well for others. Perhaps I should not have included authors I do not know so well, apologies for that.
        
        I will now look for a photo of such a sign as I think I have one. If I cannot find it, then I apologise and you can ignore my comment. I am very sorry to hear the story about the ex NKT nun. And finally, there is no bad blood between myself, my teachers at NKT and all my sangha friends and His Holiness.
        
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        TDA on September 10, 2013 at 6:27 pm
        
        “And finally, there is no bad blood between myself, my teachers at NKT and all my sangha friends and His Holiness”!
        Say what you want but as far as I can see, this one statement alone writes a whole book-what utter nonsense-How can there possibly be ‘no bad blood’ when NKT seniors scream liar and hypocrite outside the DLs teachings NKT rhetoric is riddled with venomous, non dharmic vitriolic diatribe-bad blood? No: pure poison.
        Clearly ostriches are not the only beings to bury their heads in the sand
        
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        tenpel on September 22, 2013 at 11:02 am
        
        Hi Mike,
        still; i didn’t find time to go through your last comments – they are long and it needs extra effort to read and reply to them, I am rather too lazy for this, and there other things I have to focus on. However, my eyes caught the point with the cult issue … here some thoughts:
        
        With respect to NKT having only one single, exclusive authority that has total power [Buddha Shakyamunis doesn’t count in that context because he does not direct the NKT or the NKT monks or nuns nor can these ordained complain about GKG to Buddha Shakyamuni – on top of it “when I have passed into Nirvana it [the Pratimoksha] will be your teacher”, this Pratimoskha is also not present in the NKT like the Vinaya is not present in the NKT, except for the lay vows] I found the following statement by Robert Thurman when I read the article about Geshe Michael Roach in Rolling Stone:
        
        The environment of Diamond Mountain began to trouble outside observers. “Certainly, it had become a cult,” says Thurman, “defined as a religion-based community where the leader is given complete authority over his followers and is not accountable for his actions.”
        
        NKT followers who are so used to total power by “their root guru” usually project their situation onto the Dalai Lama calling him wrongly a “religious dictator” and cannot see that actual they themselves live under a true dictator (which for me who grew up in communist regime is very clear but maybe not for British people who have no experience in this). KG can rule as he likes he is not accountable for is actions. He removes and installs successors and Resident Teachers as he pleases. If something goes wrong he says “I have not done anything wrong” or as the NKT official website says “wrong accusation against the innocent” and he strongly blames others.
        
        The Dalai Lama cannot rule as he likes, he cannot rule as Kelsang Gyatso does because Gyatso expels and removes all opponents not accepting even a potential rival who has his or a higher education while the Dalai Lama had and has always opponents and higher educated / realized people he has to cope or to deal with. (e.g. recently a Shugden proponent was elected and approve by the Dalai Lama as the Ganden Tripa – though this person hide this fact before the election and approval)
        
        The Dalai Lama cannot just impose his wishes for a Bhikshuni ordination onto the monastic order, he has to find allies, and to convince the majority. Lamas, like the Vinaya holder Lama Dawa, directly say into the Dalai Lama’s face that they don’t agree with the Dalai Lama’s pov on Bhikshuni ordination. Contrary to this Kelsang Gyatso immediately removes from power Lucy James because she dares to question his political protests, and KG established a own Vinaya without any decision by a majority …
        
        The Dalai Lama understands himself as a part of the monastic sangha and not as their ruler as Kelsang Gyatso does. Even the Shugden issue, that Shugden practitioners were finally banned from the three main gelug monastic seats in around 2008, was a development that was based on the majority decision of the monks in the monasteries and their abbots, it was a long term development which took more than 30 years. The monks had their own experience with the Shugden monks who were reported to be very pushy, aggressive and trying with money to lure monks into the Shugden pujas. Only people who have no idea about Tibetan culture and the Tibetan community in exile (which is very true for almost all NKT people) can project that the Dalai Lama would have total authority. Also the claim that the Dalai Lama wants to unite the four schools to place himself as their head is so much out of context and a total projection that those who know the details can only laugh about it. Still, NKT and Shugdenpas spread this idea all over the internet … To make it brief: NKT is a true dictatorship and the claim that the Dalai Lama would be the 21st Century Dictator is a mere projection based on the own situation. Amazing how blind one can be …
        
        I made an interview with a Tibetologist about these two claims: the Dalai Lama wanting to merge the four schools and he would have omnipotent power and the Tibetans would have to obey. The answers to these questions you can find here:
        
        http://info-buddhism.com/TibetanBuddhismQA/QA-Controversies-PartI.html
        
        If you have knowledge and if you are able to discriminate carefully the difference between NKT and the non-NKT world is really huge …
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      fleadle on September 6, 2013 at 5:44 pm
      Reply
      
      I find it hard when people say all the issues are over Dorje shugden, when I left I continued to practise I felt it was an old Tibetan argument that westerners should have kept their noses out of. I spoke out because of the harm and abuse caused to myself and others, I saw for myself the other side of that innocent monk Kelsang Gyatso and how vicious he can be but my own abuse aside what hurry the most was talking to those who had been sexually abused and to be punished and have it swept under the carpet I can not imagine that pain. Dorje for me is a side issue,I no longer do the practise but that is because I started to see negative effects and I was sure he wasn’t a Buddha from personal experience. Those who only go to gp can not see the seedy under belly they save that for those who live in but saying this I recently spoke to one of my own students when u was a nun and although she never moved in she started to see the black and White attitude of other members and how short sighted they were and how few opinions of their own they had she said she came close to giving up a good relationship and a good job to move in them she said she stood back and looked at those who had lived in long term and she realised they seemed more unhappy and confused than she was so she had a lucky escape and now had a happy life. IT’S true what this guy says about samsara sucking but the NKT do not help they take away your confidence and self esteem and your ability to trust yourself until you are crippled and they are a very uninspiring crutch. Thank you Tenpel for that bit on faith very different from the NKTs see everything add faultless this is how many practise mainly with their spiritual guide KG, wonder why he thought of that? Hmmmmm
      - 134
        
        tenpel on September 6, 2013 at 10:48 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you fleadle.
        
        I think Michelle’s criticism is correct, that we talk too negative about NKT. On the other hand, NKT is talking all over the internet and in different towns, villages and countries positive about themselves with the aim to attract new members which we see as potential new victims. So in a way the discussion on this blog is biased towards the negative aspects of NKT because this is what harmed us and is going to harm others.
        
        In the past we had quite of a balanced NKT article on Wikipedia until it was taken over and gradually manipulated by NKT editors. So NKT themselves also contributed to this black and white image about NKT by removing all unwelcomed information. So in a way this blog cannot take up the task to be utterly balanced and stressing the positive sides of NKT.
        
        I rescued the former pretty balanced NKT articles here: http://info-buddhismus.de/new_kadampa_tradition.html I remember a FPMT monk (who never experienced NKT) who read this in the past and who said to me it was so neutral that he couldn’t say if the accusations against NKT are correct or wrong or if this is a destructive organisation or not. On the other hand a NKT follower wrote to me by email that he read this Wikipedia article about NKT from April 2008 again and again until he finally understood how NKT is distorting / manipulating the facts and was able to see more clearly why it is better to leave NKT.
135

john6747 on September 2, 2013 at 8:11 am
Reply

This link will show an article by Kadampa Ryan a follower of KG.

https://kadampaworkingdad.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/activating-our-inner-spiritual-guide-becoming-an-extension-of-the-spiritual-guide/

You say…

‘The question is if you are seeing a Buddha do you develop unquestioning obedience and become someone who follows their commands. Or do you develop a dynamic interaction between 2 equals that has various levels of depth and complexity being honest if you agree or not and just being able to be yourself. I prefer the 2nd model myself as Im finding Im learning faster if I can address how I feel directly to the Buddha, good bad or ugly without feeling I have to pretend to agree when my heart is screaming no I say no and then we go through the no in a quality discussion that is not about getting a set outcome but able relaxed exploring and sharing as 2 equals.’

I tend toward your view.

Kadampa Ryan also says…

‘It resolved for me perfectly and completely all conflict of interest between self and others (improve oneself so as to be able to better help others), presented me with the ultimate object of ultimate concern, and it was the ultimate expression of the categorical imperative!’

Wikipedia contains this entry regarding the categorical imperative.

‘In 1961, discussion of Kant’s categorical imperative included even the trial of the infamous SS Lieutenant Colonel Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem.
As Hannah Arendt wrote in her book on the trial, Eichmann declared “with great emphasis that he had lived his whole life … according to a Kantian definition of duty”. Arendt considered this so “incomprehensible on the face of it” that it confirmed her sense that he wasn’t really thinking at all, just mouthing accepted formulae, thereby establishing his banality.’

When I left the NKT in 2007 the predominant concern was to achieve the ultimate purpose of the organisation and I found no evidence to the contrary. The denial of empirical evidence with regard to the effects on individuals in pursuance of the ultimate purpose only confirmed my view.

I feel Kadampa Ryan’s article reinforces the behaviour I witnessed and to quote Wikipedia again…

‘….that it confirmed’.. ‘a sense that he wasn’t really thinking at all, just mouthing accepted formulae…’

I saw no public demonstration of your view. Do they encourage your way of thinking these days?
- 136
  
  tenpel on September 5, 2013 at 10:50 am
  Reply
  
  Kadampa Ryan has promoted in the past at NKT’s public forum a naive and blindly devoted point of view, misinterpreting emptiness for instance: if you believe in a big Orange bubble to be a Buddha it functions for you as a Buddha, if you belief in Shugden as a Buddha he functions for you as a Buddha…
  
  This surrendering idea Kadampa Ryan mentions is totally non-sense, dangerous and not in the spirit of the Dharma.
  
  Alex Berzin:
  
  The Issue of Submission
  
  Some Westerners enter relationships with spiritual teachers along the model of Catholic nuns who marry Jesus and vow total unquestioning obedience to higher authority. They feel that if they surrender, open their hearts, and let their mentors act through them, they will be able to serve the world. On a psychological level, this syndrome sometimes derives from low self-esteem and from feelings that self-worth comes from “belonging” to a spiritually superior being. Although the syndrome is more typical of women spiritual seekers in relation to male teachers, it often arises also in men.
  
  Voluntary submission to an idealized person and the wish to belong to someone greater than themselves may easily open spiritual seekers to various forms of abuse. If abused, either sexually or in less severe ways, the experience may reinforce low self-opinions: they may feel that they deserved the bad treatment. Alternatively, the abuse may cause them subsequently to close their hearts to anyone else. On the surface, submission may seem like a loss of ego and therefore a Buddhist virtue. However, if the submission is for unconsciously gaining a sense of self-worth and for self-affirmation through belonging to someone greater, it undermines rather than strengthens a healthy sense of self. A feeling of self-worth comes primarily from acknowledging one’s own potentials and from using them to benefit others as much as one can.
  
  Moreover, Western disciples who presume that Buddhism shares the Biblical approach to ethics may mistakenly imagine that Tibetan lamas morally judge them. This may lead to inappropriately introducing the concept of guilt into the dynamics of the relationship. If students fail to do everything their mentors ask, they feel guilty and unworthy. Therefore, fearing rejection because of being “bad disciples,” they feel they must submit without question and always obey.
  
  From a Buddhist standpoint, behavioral cause and effect function without a higher authority passing judgment. A person avoids destructive behavior not because of fear of punishment, but because of wishing to avoid the suffering that unhealthy behavior brings. As explained above, obedience to laws created by God or promulgated by an elected legislature is a culturally specific virtue, not a universal one.
  
  A healthy relationship with a spiritual mentor, then, does not entail submission or belonging to the mentor. Nor does it entail guilt-based obedience. One must differentiate clearly between being a mentor’s disciple and belonging to a mentor.
  
  Also this statement “What are the benefits of this practice? If we can do this, all our actions function to create non-contaminated karma.” is totally non-sense. Uncontaminated Karma is only accumulated from the path of seeing onwards for an Arya Bodhisattva who has necessarily realized emptiness. And if you identify and cling to your guru as your higher and better self (as most NKT people do or learn to do) it does not “completely destroy our self-cherishing and our self-grasping.” BUT this type of surrendering and identification with the guru as your higher (independent) self increases self-cherishing, neurotic patterns and delusions. If your Guru is a narcissist you become like him too. In such a case nothing is transformed but things get worse and more complicated … (as the Buddha said in the Dhammapada: You become like your object of devotion …)
  
  Also the other sentences (I quickly glanced through them) are neo-esoteric mumbo jumbo: “It destroys our self-grasping because we see ourselves to be a reflection of the mind of the Spiritual Guide and have no independent self-existence. We become and feel ourselves to be part of a larger whole.” because what larger whole would this be? And how can the realization of emptiness of true existence serve as a basis to cling to anything like a “larger whole”? We are not reflections of the mind of the Spiritual Guide either. What we see of us is a projection / reflection of our own mind … I makes me sad to read this confusion. I hope people get out of NKT before they end up in such distorted and confused thoughts which are IMO detrimental to a healthy spiritual development.
  - 137
    
    fleadle on September 5, 2013 at 8:42 pm
    Reply
    
    Because so many have an unquestioning devotion to Kelsang gyatso’s they never question or explore themselves. I truly believe Buddha’s main point was for us to learn about ourselves yet in the NKT you lose yourself because you feel even thinking about yourself is self cherishing. This mistaken view causes you to abandon yourself when you come to the spiritual path with low self confidence this destroys what little you have. I remember one of my teachers telling me ‘ remember you are nothing and no-one’ At the time I laughed it off but it seeps in and undermines how you see yourself. After several years in the tradition you become an empty parrot with no opinions of your own. I have only recently been able to pray to Je Tsongkhapa as I felt so afraid of anything connected to my time in the NKT, but new I see clearly that they do not follow JTKs teachings and they do not represent him. I couldn’t help laughing to myself when I saw a poster today for a free talk by my old teacher on building self confidence, all he taught me was how unimportant and worthless I am. So many left because of his bullying. You have to laugh at the irony.
    - 138
      
      tenpel on September 5, 2013 at 8:59 pm
      Reply
      
      Very true. NKT thoroughly undermine people’s self-confidence and self-trust (trust in one’s one abilities/qualities). This undermining of self-esteem is needed in order to make the followers utterly dependent on the only true solution for all problems: Kelsang Gyatso and his “pure” NKT=without them there is no rescuing from the troubles of the world.
      
      Yes, it is utter irony that NKT teaches self-confidence.
      - 139
        
        Joanne on September 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm
        Reply
        
        And this lack of self-confidence makes one incapable of fulfilling the deeds of a bodhisattva. I also was confused about this in the beginning, allowing teachings on no-self to erode my already shakey self concept– so this isn’t a problem just reserved for NKT members!
        
        Shantideva describes the difference between afflictive pride and the (necessary) self-confidence of a bodhisattva very nicely in Chapter 7 of Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Life.
140

john6747 on September 16, 2013 at 6:20 pm
Reply

When KG dies. Mmmm.
The theory appears to be the teacher in the NKT believes him or herself to be the conduit through which the teachings will be transmitted. There will be no problem as the teachings will be delivered in a ‘pure’ form, without interpretation. The reality may be the same as seen throughout history, where revision of texts becomes the norm.
We have seen revision of ‘pure’ texts wihin the NKT as new revised editions are published.
There are newer texts such as Modern Buddhism presented for our modern age but I feel these are like a childrens’ edition of the Bible.

Back to succession. When KG was preparing to stand down, it was thought a good idea to rotate the incumbent of the GSD position every 4 years, with no immediate re election, in order to facilitate a more democratic organisation. Hoever, the rules have changed so the GSD position is for 8 nyears and at the end of this period they can be re elected. This would allow the GSD position to be filled by one person for 16 years. I feel the NKT is trying to establish stability of leadership in anticipation of KG’s death.

The previous rule stating the position could only be held for 4 years, could lead to various factions vying for power.

There have always been power struggles within religions throughout history and the NKT will be no different.
141

Zopa Dechen on September 20, 2013 at 6:29 pm
Reply

I am sorry to put various answers into such a long post but here goes..I will address various things that Maik108 said..

1. The NKT ‘are’ the WSS. This was stated clearly by a letter on Bodhisattva Centre notepaper (printed by the centre ) and signed by the then current Resident teacher – Kelsang Nyingpo. An original copy is in the Inform archives. I forget the exact wording but it is also on one of Tenzin’s websites. Also, John Swainson’s excellent research showed that all the ‘Directors’ of the WSS were senior NKT officials. This ruse of ‘another organisation’ had to be created as it is against the Charitable purposes of the NKT to engage in ‘political protest’. There was also an attempt to say that the protests ‘weren’t political’…

2. The timing of the protests was extremely bad – just when the most extreme repression had started in Lhasa – Tibetans were being killed on the streets. So, to bring the ‘Shugden’ issue into the minds of the people there was horrific. I was in the NKT during the first protests and went to London on the coach with people from my centre. During the second bout I was inside the Royal Albert Hall in London – the noise was atrocious! The lack of grace was astounding. I have recently been to Balcombe for the anti-fracking protests and I have seen nothing close to the shouting and chanting with raised fists that my ‘old friends’ in the NKT engaged in. We had to pass right beside them, inches away, as the police had put the NKT into the main path from the underground train station to the largest entrance into the venue. The NKT took photos of this queue of bystanders next to them and said that they were protesters. This is a classic example of the manipulation they engaged in. Several ‘Tibetan’ monks I saw in protests in the US were actually Mexican!!!! In this context of severe political repression at home perhaps you can understand why the Tibetans were so upset – it was so absurd – mostly very white British ‘monks and nuns’ shouting about a Tibetan issue ( and this is very big inside the Tibetan community, more about that later) that they obviously did not fully understand and the ‘Geshe’ who had put them up to do this (as few of the top NKT people will go against their ‘instructions’ ) wasn’t even there. I would have respected him more if he had been. In both cases, the demos were organised when the Deputy Spiritual Director of the NKT had been publicly stated to have had sex with nuns…There were many other times when these demos could have taken place – the Dalai Lama (unlike Gyatso) teaches frequently.

3. The ‘Shugden issue’ has yet to be fully discussed. I feel there is an ‘anthropological’ question here – there are publications in Tibetan and the Dalai Lama talks often of these issues. What is translated on his website is very little. The problem appears to me to be that the detrimental aspects of Shugden practice can be explained using the Tibetan understanding of medicine – this means using the language of wind & other energies and of ‘spirits’. These are not categories that ‘western’ Buddhists take kindly to, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world that has taken far more (especially in the UK) to the Sri Lankan Theravadan Dharma. Westerners ‘switch off’ as soon as you try to explain this. You could say that Gyatso is regarded as himself suffering from the effects of Shugden practice – he has become isolated both from the Tibetan diaspora and from his own students. He abandoned the personalised one-to-one interaction expected from all Tibetan teachers a long time ago – I remember seeing various Tibetan lamas quite shocked to know that in 12 years study with the NKT I did not have one interview with Gyatso about my practice. NKT Dharma is a kind of ‘one size fits all’ that is detrimental both to the students and to the ‘teachers’. So, the ‘facts’ of the case have yet to be translated. But I would far rather trust a person like the Dalai Lama who exposes himself to people every day with the intention to benefit rather than a person who I regarded as my spiritual guide who did not have the time to see me – I was a poor, British nun. I was told (and I knew) that only people who came from abroad & made large gifts to Gyatso/the NKT would be seen by him. I managed to ‘get in’ with the Mexicans on occasion (I met the NKT in Mexico…) I knew people who went to see him as they were on the point of leaving the NKT, and people who lived at Manjushri in the 20th century occasionally saw him. In some strange way I feel he used Shugden as a substitute for his own presence.

4. There are radical differences with the NKT and other groups which I would summarise as revolving around ‘obedience’. There are a lot of dynamics in the NKT that are deliberately kept hidden from those who are not RTs and ordained. It’s a tight circle. If you aren’t obedient as a Resident Teacher then you’re out, at least for a while. It’s done by email and telephone and little is shared. If it’s an order that will be difficult for a community then it’s ‘packaged’ in a more acceptable way. I saw this over and over again. People revert to ‘Geshe-la says’…I really mean this – the ‘inner circle’ is quite different. This flows into the way that the NKT is organised publicly – for instance, one person is ‘chosen’ to run something i.e. Pema with the anti-Dalai Lama demos. Then, later, if there is a problem, that person can be scapegoated, removed from the group and the ‘group’ maintains its ‘innocence’. To have two DSD’s engaging in sex with nuns is a dynamic. Not for nothing does the NKT have 2 very strong and ‘focused’ women at the top – they simply do not have the sexual charisma that Samden and Thubten had (he was a brilliant speaker!). I knew a film-maker who specialised in protests – he filmed all 2 groups outside the Royal Albert Hall and one thing he noted was that, and in his experience this was unique, individual members of the NKT would not speak to him, he had to refer to Pema and Pema only. The NKT has a tight control on it’s higher echelons. The case of Maitreya Centre in Bexhill and the atrocious treatment of the legal Directors is a case in question – one was threatened with criminal arrest in their own home 3 times by the police for a case that was already being processed as civil! This ‘hidden force’ is only noted by outsiders (of the inner circle) in times of crisis.

5. Another huge difference between the NKT and other groups is the extent to which the NKT tries to stop any serious publications which have coherent analyses of the NKT’s ‘faults’ including its history. Just take a look at the history of the NKT Wiki page and the threats surrounding the publication of the ‘Peacock’ book. It’s an old story. NewKadampaTruths. ‘Exposing’ the person who created the yahoo survivors group as ‘mentally ill’…This blog is the closest you can get to serious academic discussion of the issues. And this doesn’t reach into the right places as yet. The NKT has found it easier to ‘stop debating’ on the internet.. (By the way, the ‘Modern’ word came up in the ‘Facebook research’ the NKT was doing a few years back – people were asked what kinds of words they would find most acceptable when describing the NKT..!) Inform – the research group at the London School of Economics – publishes leaflets describing the New Religious Movements it studies at public request. Publishing this leaflet requires the co-operation of the group it publishes about, who have a section where they can reply to the criticism/analysis. The NKT, unlike Scientology and many other groups, have refused to co-operate and threaten (as usual) a court case… [yawn….].. Instead the NKT are listed 5 times in their leaflet on ‘Extremism on Campus’ (referring to the UK).

I also feel that the NKT has a culture of denial as to the harm it has done to those who call themselves ‘survivors’ (at some point in the leaving process). No one has as yet taken Samden to court (or Gyatso as ultimately responsible for his own appointed Deputy Director) although I understand threats were made to take Thubten to court in the US for sexual abuse and the case was quickly settled financially. The subtle and insidious nature of NKT ‘toxicity’ isn’t clear until you have more spiritual experience. Most of us didn’t have it and we plunged in unawares. “How could that lovely friendly ‘Buddhist monk’ who looks just like the Dalai Lama in his red and yellow robes, possibly be part of a cult? And the garden is so beautiful. Such a nice cup of tea….How can a little bit of meditation, half an hour a week, possibly be bad for me? The doctor recommended it for my anxiety…” And so it all goes on…We are westerners. What the NKT gives is powerful. The Highest Yoga Tantra works. But there isn’t the ‘back up’ we need to go further on the path and we don’t even know it in the NKT.

Suggestion – read Je Tsongkhapa’s texts. They exist, translated beautifully. You will be surprised!

Best wishes – and may all our yearning for a spiritual path bear good fruit…
142

john6747 on September 22, 2013 at 9:21 am
Reply

Hi Maik108
Are you the same Maik who wrote the following to New Kadampa Truth Blog in 2008?

September 21, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Hi,
‘Once again, I wonder why so much effort is put into refuting the ‘bodhisattva centre smears’? Without meaning to sound harsh, who cares?! It seems to me very obvious that strong defensive responses create more of an opposition. If there are people with nothing better to do than to make up nonsense about the NKT because they obviously feel a need to defend their egos, point their fingers and cry like babies, lets let them. I do not believe they are powerful or convincing. If people fall prey to their allegations, this is unfortunate, but karma after all…’

love, M.xx

and then wrote.on this blog…

‘…Yes, I agree with you partially. There are many people walking around the NKT who will not hear a single negative syllable uttered against their tradition. They will shrug and say it’s just samsara. This is ridiculous and not helpful to themselves or others. But I don’t perceive this to be a huge majority.’
143

john6747 on September 22, 2013 at 10:12 am
Reply

Hi Dechen

‘The ‘Shugden issue’ has yet to be fully discussed. I feel there is an ‘anthropological’ question here – there are publications in Tibetan and the Dalai Lama talks often of these issues. What is translated on his website is very little. The problem appears to me to be that the detrimental aspects of Shugden practice can be explained using the Tibetan understanding of medicine – this means using the language of wind & other energies and of ‘spirits’. These are not categories that ‘western’ Buddhists take kindly to, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world that has taken far more (especially in the UK) to the Sri Lankan Theravadan Dharma. Westerners ‘switch off’ as soon as you try to explain this.’

Yes I believe you are right to highlight the ‘anthropological question’.

There are many errors of translation everywhere due to the translator trying to get the best fit in one culture to describe something from another.

The term virtue is used widely and has come to mean some action has merit or there is some inherent good. However, it also refers to an action which is skilful. The action resulted in the desired outcome but without the connection to the outcome being good.

Your reference to Shugden and physical or mental states is I feel important.

The Ancient Greeks referred to being ‘visited’ by a dream whereas today we tend to say ‘I had a dream’.

The dream for the Greeks was the result of some external agency but for us the dream is a function of some internal activity.

The ‘wind & other energies and of ‘spirits’.I feel are the results of a Psychosomatic Shugden and not one created by an external entity.

For further info related to the meeting of Greek and Indian cultures see…
http://www.ancient.eu.com/article/208/
- 144
  
  tenpel on September 23, 2013 at 12:56 pm
  Reply
  
  Dear John & Dechen, with respect to less discussed negative effects of Shugden practice on the subtle energy system as stressed in Yoga and Tantra, there is this talk by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche – who is highly regarded as a master and who was also a Professor at a Italian University:
  
  The Gyalpo always provoke people with nervousness, confusion and being upset. These are the most important secondary causes through which the Gyalpo can provoke or disturb and for the person under their influence, confusion rises even more. So this is the provocation of Gyalpo in general.
  
  More see: http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_Choegyal_Namkhai_Norbu.html
145

Maik108 on September 23, 2013 at 11:17 am
Reply

Hi John,

Wow, thats pretty old. You must have done some digging to find that. I think it was me, I can’t really remember writing it; I certainly seem to have had more of a direct attitude…
I dont quite recall what issues were being raised in the context of that message, which here appears quite outside of it. I think there were all kinds of verbal and written attacks on Bodhisattva Centre in Brighton at the time due to some issues with the teachers and residents at that time.
I’m not sure what your intention is with finding this old post and comparing it with a post I wrote here. I assume you are suggesting that I have contradicted myself, thereby possibly undermining my points. I have zero interest in personal confrontation and am very happy discussing the issues at hand with those who have been kind enough to respond in depth.
- 146
  
  tenpel on September 23, 2013 at 12:48 pm
  Reply
  
  Hi Mike,
  why not standing for this type of contradiction as what it seems to be?
  
  “all kinds of verbal and written attacks on Bodhisattva Centre in Brighton” … actual the NKT Resident Teacher and “celebrity NKT monk” Kelsang Lodrö had made pregnant a nun and there was more which I would not like to repeat or to say here in detail.
  
  here the person who wanted to inform the public:
  http://buddhismnewkadampa.wordpress.com/bodhisattva-centre/
  
  and NKT’s “refutation”
  http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/bodhisattva-refutations/
  
  There were very serious issues of all types of abuse (power, sex, financial) in the Bodhisattva Centre as far as I got it and as it was discussed by first hand witnesses in the New Kadampa Survivors. It doesn’t come very convincing for me to challenge the motivation of John why he posted this while there is still a tendency at your side to neglect what happened there by minimizing the different types of abuse (sexual, financial, power) to “verbal and written attacks”.
  
  I think John challenges your motivation why you are posting here, now you challenge his motivation …
  - 147
    
    Maik108 on September 24, 2013 at 8:47 am
    Reply
    
    Dear Tenpel, dear John,
    Why is a comment I posted in 2008 to some Kadampas now posted here out of context? I disagree, I see no productive function. Does John, or yourself, know what that whole blog was about? What was my post in reply to?
    As I myself can hardly remember, I doubt everybody else does 😉
    
    Be that as it may, I will quickly answer as it seems to concern some of you:
    
    First of all, the “verbal and written attacks on Bodhisattva Centre in Brighton” that I mentioned had nothing to do per se with all of those serious allegations (many of which are undoubtedly true). This is the context of that message: It was 2008, I had just started seriously looking into the whole dorje shugden issue as well as some of the criticisms against the NKT. Already then I agreed and disagreed with several of them. As I had recently re-settled in Brighton, I had also recently visited other Buddhist groups/centers and met a few non-NKT Buddhists. In general, they didn’t hide their contempt for the NKT -which is fine – but in a couple of instances resorted to calling me bad words…! I checked out some blogs and forums, wrote a few thoughts of my own and was only patronized, cursed and, in short, told to f–off by various bloggers (including by someone mentioned in one of your posts).
    
    As I was personally quite tired and fed up with the back-and-forward name calling and speculative criticisms, I wrote that post as a reaction to what I perceived was going on. It was quite a while ago and arose out of personal experiences and circumstances. So to be clear: this post did not and does not in any way undermine or “whitewash” the criticisms of others on this post -especially since I did not even know about most of them in 2008.
    
    Very quickly…I had several close friends at the center who suffered from the things that took place there up to 2008. Many of them have left but remain friendly to the center, many do not; also, many have stayed. As I never went to the center before that time, I cannot say anything about it. Today I think it is a wonderful center with a great teacher and community, with the usual ups and downs caused by any group of humans.
    - 148
      
      john6747 on September 24, 2013 at 3:47 pm
      Reply
      
      Hi Maik
      For your information
      
      http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/why-refute-the-bodhisattva-centre-smears/#comments
    - 149
      
      john6747 on September 24, 2013 at 4:14 pm
      Reply
      
      The resident teacher at the Bodhisattva Centre is Chodor. I believe he was instrumental in the take over at the Maitreya Centre in Bexhill.
      - 150
        
        Lineageholder on September 24, 2013 at 4:31 pm
        Reply
        
        Hi John, there was no ‘take over’ of the Bexhill Centre – quite the opposite. One of the Teachers at that centre, supported by the management committee of the centre illegally tried to take the centre out of the NKT when its constitution dictated that it was an NKT Centre. Maybe saying that they were attempting to steal the centre from the NKT is too strong a term, but that’s effectively what it was. The centre was not theirs, nor was its assets, but they tried to appropriate them and any action that was taken by NKT was to prevent that.
        
        151
        
        tenpel on September 24, 2013 at 5:00 pm
        Reply
        
        LH, as far as I got it, there was the trial of an illegal take over where John McBretney even claimed wrongly to be the legal representative of the centre and lied to the authorities – including police and charity commission. I don’t know what the actual situation is now but for sure I believe in what MBC have to say here: http://maitreyabuddhistcentre.wordpress.com/news/ than in your lawyers (who write pressurizing letters to publishers, institutions, the press and authors or other Buddhists), and the armada of fact twisters, as you.
        
        The Maitreya Buddhist centre disagreed with the NKT head office initially. There was no “illegal trial” to take it “away” from NKT. NKT’s stubborn head office is dictating what other centres have to do. And according to democracy people have the right to object being dictated. However, NKT head office can not bear objections. It has been always just like this. Only obedient members are good members for NKT …
        
        BTW, can a charity organization decide to cut ties with an larger charity body or not? Do the centres belong to NKT (only then they can be stolen) or not? Why does Kelsang Gyatso say: “it are your centres” if they are not the peoples’ centres? You can only think of stealing a centre if you think “I” and “mine”. This clinging to I and mine is explained to be the very cause of Samsara. Interestingly such thoughts are absent when it comes to the fact that the Manjushri Centre belonged to Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe/FMPT. NKT turns facts as it suits their views … it is always the same.
        
        Also interesting:
        http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/dispute-closes-nkts-bexhill-buddhist-centre
        
        152
        
        Lineageholder on September 24, 2013 at 9:22 pm
        
        [deleted by blog owner]
        
        LH, actual you were already ‘banned’ from the blog a while ago due to your endless wrong allegations, distortions of facts and circling of issues. No need to continue circling. It’s my fault that I gave you still space and didn’t abide by my decision. It’s somewhat childish what I did. So please excuse me.
        
        Please spin your things at your blogs and websites. I don’t have time to repeat myself endlessly.
        All the best, now and in the future. May you awaken fully.
        
        153
        
        fleadle on September 25, 2013 at 8:06 am
        
        Dear Tenpel would you be able to recommend some authentic Je Tsongkhapa texts that I could read I feel I have no idea what was a genuine teaching in the NKT and what was twisted by Kelsang Gyatso. I still feel a strong link with JTK and would like to know exactly what he taught. I’m moving to a NKT free city soon and while there I may look into other groups but first I want to read some factual texts. Feeling very confused right now.
        
        154
        
        tenpel on September 25, 2013 at 9:32 am
        
        Oh yes. Foremost I would recommend to start to study and read his Lam Rim Chen Mo, published in three volumes. If you start to read it carefully you recognize the depths of his teachings (and indirectly the superficial presentation of the NKT presentation). Je Tsongkhapa gives for every statement a passage from a sutra, shastra or one of the 17 pandits from Nalanda. He does not just claim things, he gives for almost each and every sentence a quote or passage from a sutra or an established authentic Buddhist scripture. He also clarifies misunderstandings in a q/a section, also here he uses authentic scriptures to prove his claims. To give you an example. In Kelsang Gyatso’s lamrim, there is a lot about the teacher but KG uses only 1 or 2 sentences about the qualification of the student. This topic is not highlighted at all. This playing down of the role of the student and the qualification he/she should have is very much in line of many Shugden lamas’ approach to bind student in an obedient manner (rather slavish) to the teacher but not empowering them to take responsibility and foremost: to be unpartisan – not to take sides! Here the extract think, see, and feel for yourself and then consult the passage in Joyful Path:
        
        Je Tongkhapa explains the defining characteristics of a student of the Mahayana in this way:
        
        The defining characteristics of the student who relies upon the teacher
        
        Aryadeva states in his Four Hundred Stanzas (Catuh-sataka):
        
        “It is said that one who is non-partisan, intelligent, and diligent
        Is a vessel for listening to the teachings.
        The good qualities of the instructor do not appear otherwise
        Nor do those of fellow listeners.”
        
        Aryadeva says that one who is endowed with the three qualities is suitable to listen to the teachings. He also says that if you have all these qualities, the good qualities of one who instructs you in the teachings will appear as good qualities, not as faults. In addition, he says that to such a fully qualified person the good qualities of fellow listeners will also appear as good qualities and not as faults.
        
        It is stated in Candrakirti’s commentary that if you, the listener, do not have all these defining characteristics of a suitable recipient of the teachings, then the influence of your own faults will cause even an extremely pure teacher who instructs you in the teachings to appear to have faults. Furthermore, you will consider the faults of the one who explains the teachings to be good qualities. Therefore, although you might find a teacher who has all the defining characteristics, it may be difficult to recognize their presence.
        
        Thus, it is necessary for the disciple to have these three characteristics in their entirety in order to recognize that the teacher has all the defining characteristics and in order then to rely on that teacher.
        
        With respect to these three characteristics, “nonpartisan” means not to take sides. If you are partisan, you will be obstructed by your bias and will not recognize good qualities. Because of this, you will not discover the meaning of good teachings. As Bhavaviveka states in his Heart of the Middle Way (Madhyamaka-hrdaya):
        
        “Through taking sides the mind is distressed, Whereby you will never know peace.”
        
        “Taking sides” is to have attachment for your own religious system and hostility toward others’. Look for it in your own mind and then discard it, for it says in the Bodhisattva Vows of Liberation (Bodhi-sattva-pratimoksa):
        
        “After giving up your own assertions, respect and abide in the texts of the abbot and master.”
        
        Question: Is just that one characteristic enough?
        Reply: Though non-partisan, if you do not have the mental force to distinguish between correct paths of good explanation and counterfeit paths of false explanation, you are not fit to listen to the teachings. Therefore, you must have the intelligence that understands both of these. By this account you will give up what is unproductive, and then adopt what is productive.
        
        Question: Are just these two enough?
        Reply: Though having both of these, if, like a drawing of a person who is listening to the teachings, you are inactive, you are not fit to listen to the teachings. Therefore, you must have great diligence. Candrakirti’s commentary says “After adding the three qualities of the student to the two qualities of being focused and having respect for the teaching and its instructor, there are a total of five qualities.”
        
        Then, these five qualities can be reduced to four:
        (1) striving very diligently at the teaching,
        (2) focusing the mind well when listening to the teaching,
        (3) having great respect for the teaching and its instructor, and
        (4) discarding bad explanations and retaining good explanations.
        
        Having intelligence is the favourable condition that gives rise to these. Being non-partisan gets rid of the unfavourable condition of taking sides.
        
        Investigate whether these attributes that make you suitable to be led by a guru are complete; if they are complete, cultivate delight. If they are incomplete, you must make an effort to obtain the causes that will complete them before your next life. Therefore, know these qualities of a listener. If you do not know their defining characteristics, you will not engage in an investigation to see whether they are complete, and will thereby ruin your great purpose.
        
        (Lam Rim Chen Mo, p 75ff, Snow Lion Publications)
        
        I would also recommend to recite some of the devotional and wishing prayers of Je Tsongkhapa, they breath in every pore deep devotion, humbleness, spirituality, longing to be free from Samsara / the fetters, and to live the pure lifestyle of a monk. They are – at least for me and some others – deeply inspiring, deeply touching. I used to recite them very often and I am deeply convinced that my recitations of them created the Karma for me to find excellent teachers and to received excellent teachings from them. The book is sold out currently. Gavin Kilty asked (on my request) the publisher to republish it. You can contact me via email (or anybody interested) to get a PDF copy for some of the prayers, which I compiled from it for ex-NKT in order to help to bridge their situation. I think David Cutshaw put this PDF also in the New Kadampa Survivor forum download section. I cannot stress high enough how inspiring and uplifting they are for me and how much hope and joy their recitation has brought to my mind. I would recommend to buy the book as soon as it is been republished. It’s an invaluable treasure (at least to me). On the way, again, you realize, why I use to call NKT superficial. (But this shouldn’t be the motivation, it’s just a side effect.)
        
        155
        
        tenpel on September 25, 2013 at 9:45 am
        
        BTW, all people with whom I talked said this commentary on the Lam Rim Chen Mo by Geshe Lhundup Sopa would be the best available in English: “Steps on the Path to Enlightenment: A Commentary on Tsongkhapa’s Lamrim Chenmo“. It has different volumes.
        
        —–
        
        Geshe Lhundup Sopa is the teacher of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. When KG arrived in the West he was still used to see his teacher, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, and to do service for him, like cleaning his room etc. I’ve never heard KG mentioning his teacher.
        
        Geshe Lhundup Sopa taught at the University of Wisconsin and is highly regarded as a top scholar and practitioner alike.
- 156
  
  john6747 on September 23, 2013 at 5:50 pm
  Reply
  
  Hi Maik
  You said…..
  
  ‘ I accept your experiences and am interested to hear about them. I have to say that I have not had those sorts of experiences at all, at least not to the extreme extent that you have had. That also includes a handful of close friends of mine who work/teach in the organisation. Based on this, I feel this discussion should, or needs to, be split into two separate segments: personal experiences on one side (which include experiences with teachers, the guru, the practice, the centers, etc) and facts (how the institution is run/set up, qualifications of teachers, historical facts, etc’.
  
  I didn’t set out to find a post from you as I was researching statements made by NKTruth as to how the old mistakes will not be made again and that the NKT is an organisation which has learned from its mistakes. The comments from NKTruth are mainly before 2010.
  However, we still have a noticeable pattern reminiscent of pre 2010 days.
  Denial of any responsibility over the Highden Manor dispute are post 2010 and the papers are available for scrutiny as to the facts. The Maitreya Centre dispute papers are also available.
  
  Contradiction? We can all find something we have said or done which may not coincide with current thought.
  
  As far as undermining your points, I am addressing one of them.
- 157
  
  Carol McQuire on October 6, 2013 at 10:36 pm
  Reply
  
  Dear Maik108
  
  I have responded in depth to you here…
  
  https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2013/05/30/meditation-on-university-campus-new-kadampa-tradition-luring-students-under-a-new-label-modern-buddhist-society/#comment-18474
  
  But I have not had a reply from you.
  - 158
    
    Maik108 on October 7, 2013 at 5:14 pm
    Reply
    
    Dear Carol,
    
    I didnt know you were Zopa Dechen. I have not had much time since those posts to read or contemplate them. I have read your post and could of course reply, but I doubt it will be of much value as both of our posts come from our own experiences, which deeply and fundamentally contradict one another. I suppose, in a nutshell, I see some of the problems you point out, and always have seen them, but don’t feel affected by them. I don’t believe in the slightest that there is a small hub of people at the centre of the organization who are waiting for people to fall prey to their evil, money-hungry or power-hungry ways. Why? Because in my own experience and that of most others I know associated with the NKT for very many years, there is no indication of that.
    For now, I will briefly reply to a couple of points. You say you know for a fact that GKG only ever sees people who come from abroad with large gifts. My American aunt met him without any gifts. A few friends of mine, who are British and attend the festivals have all met him without bringing money or gifts. I met him (albeit very briefly) without any gift of any sort. I’m sorry you didn’t meet him if you really wanted to. If you didn’t, it doesn’t matter.
    You say the practice is a one-size-fits-all and that the HYT doesn’t have the proper background or backing. I don’t think its a one-size-fits-all, but lets say that it is: why should that bother anyone? Let them be a one-size-fits-all organisation! Also you say there is no background information, teachings and so on for HYT. In general, it is true that many later publications simplify the teachings and present tantra in quite an easy-to-digest way. I have no opinion on this. However, texts like ‘Clear Light of Bliss’, ‘Essence of Vajrayana’ and the like, are extremely detailed, extensive and full of references to the root texts.
    I do read Je Tsongkhapa’s work, it is most splendid indeed.
    
    It seems that whatever I may say, you can always retort by saying I couldn’t know better, as I am not ‘on the inside’. How could I argue with that?
    
    Much love.
159

john6747 on September 24, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Reply

Hi Maik

One recurring theme through your posts is the need to separate personal experience from facts.
I agree but it is a difficult exercise.
It is a fact you posted the above in 2008. It is also a fact that I said, ‘ We can all find something we have said or done which may not coincide with current thought’.

I said the above, recognising opinions may change over time. Who decides what is fact?
You have decided to contest this.
What we say is usually based on personal experience and sometimes the facts get in the way.

Lineageholder has written there was no take over at the Maitreya Centre. If the original trustees of the centre were asked about the facts the answer would be different. So where are the facts? The usual way of resolving these issues is arbitration. In the case of the Maitreya Centre the NKT would not enter arbitration thereby confirming their view, contrary to the view of the original trustees.
160

tenpel on September 25, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Reply

“They are fearless, stress resistant, little empathy, cold-hearted, self-centered, superficial, manipulative, irresponsible and impulsive. They have no feelings of guilt and often behave anti-socially. They have an unshakable self-confidence, act very focused and can be very charming and persuasive.”

I found it quite interesting that Osho is seen as a psychopath, and that number 8 of professions for psychopaths are priests/organised religion.

Professions usually occupied by psychopaths in order of relevance:

CEO (Managing Director or Chief Executive Officer)
lawyer
Journalist (TV / radio)
Seller
surgeon
journalist
policeman
spiritual
cooking
officials

All these jobs are usually associated with a certain power and require the ability to make objective and callous, cold-blooded, ice-cold, unemotional decisions. Psychopaths are attracted to these roles and flourish on this.

Professions usually NOT occupied by psychopaths in order of relevance:

carers
nurse
therapist
craftsmen
Beautician / Stylist
Employees of charitable organizations
teachers
Cultural sector
doctor
accountant

Most of these jobs require good interpersonal relationships and an adequate management of feelings. And they are more connected with less power. Psychopaths find these professions and are therefore unattractive in these positions also not good.

He explains that psychopaths have a “cold compassion” that gets at once emotions but uses it to manipulate you.

http://www.spiegel.de/karriere/berufsleben/karriere-von-psychopathen-wie-man-mit-gestoerten-bossen-umgeht-a-924052.html
http://healthland.time.com/2012/11/19/learning-from-psychopaths-qa-with-psychologist-kevin-dutton/
161

Thomas on October 5, 2013 at 6:36 pm
Reply

Dear Tenpel,

I have to admit to being very surprised to find this blog post. In fact, I happen to know that it is all completely untrue because… I founded and run the Modern Buddhism Society at York! hehe.

Our true nature is simply me giving some basic Buddhist teachings and guiding meditations, based on Geshe-la’s instructions. It’s true that I follow the Kadampa tradition, but that’s no secret, and there is nothing at all secretive about our true nature! I know this to be true because I run the society!

People are welcome to come to any of my classes, or none of them – no more time is demanded than people expect! Membership costs £5 for the year and then all classes are free – so how can you claim they cost a lot of money and will leave people in debt? I give advice on helping to develop love and patience in relationships which will only ever improve them, and never harm them. And nobody becomes emotionally dependent on the group – people are welcome to come and go as they please, the classes are all drop in!!

If you are ever in York, Tenpel, I would be very happy for you to pop in and experience the class for yourself. I cannot deny your experiences with the NKT, although to suggest that your experiences of the NKT will apply to everyone is untrue – I have been in the NKT for about 4 years and have had no such unpleasant experiences. My experiences have been great, in fact! But anyway, whatever your experiences are, it is not right to project that onto anything affiliated with the NKT – if you came to one of my classes, you would find that everything you said is untrue as I have clearly explained above.

I hope that this helps you to understand the York Modern Buddhism Society a bit better.

Love to you!!

Thomas
- 162
  
  tenpel on October 5, 2013 at 7:14 pm
  Reply
  
  Dear Thomas,
  thank you for your comment.
  
  According to the information given at the time of the post there was no explicit statement about the NKT affiliation. Of course I don’t know how NKT presents there themselves but the ad clearly only indicates it when one deeply searches for it.
  
  Maybe you explain a bit about why this ‘re-branding’ is been done: NKT as “pure Gelugpa”, “pure Kadampa”, “New Kadampa Tradition”, “Kadampa Buddhism”, “Kadampa Buddhist Union”, “Modern Buddhism” and now “Modern Buddhist Society”?
  
  And then what exactly is “completely untrue” and what is true? That NKT hides itself behind the ad of being a Modern Buddhist Society? The ad as I quote it clearly indicates this, and there is a tendency in NKT ad at certain places to do exactly this. When it was not intended to hide then why are you inventing a new name at the official ads?
  
  I didn’t say that people become poor by paying a low fee for a meditation when they come at times or even regularly. They risk to end up in dept when they totally get sucked into the NKT system. Such meditation courses are only low level bases to attract people to NKT (no matter if YOU do it with a good motivation). We are just too many people having been harmed by the NKT. As I said, I lost ALL of my savings and I am not the only one!!! In the beginning there is no problem because 1) NKT makes it easy for you to enter, 2) there are indeed kind and at times charismatic people who attract one 3) NKT doesn’t say everything in the beginning 4) it’s part of the “skilful means” to give ease to new followers 5) there is a strong care for potential new followers (until they become a part of the system, then the care suddenly stops) – Anti-cultists call this “Love bombing”. The point is, once you fully commit to NKT after the initial good experience the NKT highly likely is going to directly or indirectly push you to give more and more money, more and more of your time, to work more and more for the organization (“spread the holy Dharma”), to read more and more only “Geshe-las” books (“its all in there”). Based on this people will rather likely (especially if they made initially good experiences and are emotionally bound to NKT up to being manipulated) exploit themselves and commit by far more than they were initially willing to do. This later harming process starts and it is very subtle, hard to recognize and it has been for many people extremely harmful because they go beyond their initial commitment and their capacities. […there is more…] To make it brief: many Ex-NKT have abandoned Buddhism and some even religion completely. Those who didn’t have difficulties over years with their practice and to have faith in any other religious person again because of their faith has been abused (or they allowed it to be abused.)
  
  The post above mainly wants to make aware about a new move of NKT (in that case being represented by you) to “attract new followers” who ex-NKT, as I am, see as potential new victims. It’s not so much about you but how people can end up in this group.
  
  Are you not happy when people from the group come to the Summer Festival, Winter or Spring Festival or travel to Geshe-la? Don’t you put there leaflets about such NKT events to “inspire” people to go there? What about the books you present, are these only books from Geshe-la? Are there bookmarks in it “Buddhist Centres close by” which is a list of ONLY NKT centres? (This is exactly how I was tricked into NKT … or better how my naivety allowed me to be tricked in.) So, isn’t there a wish, that people might finally follow NKT?
  
  If you are ever in York, Tenpel, I would be very happy for you to pop in and experience the class for yourself. I cannot deny your experiences with the NKT, although to suggest that your experiences of the NKT will apply to everyone is untrue – I have been in the NKT for about 4 years and have had no such unpleasant experiences. My experiences have been great, in fact! But anyway, whatever your experiences are, it is not right to project that onto anything affiliated with the NKT – if you came to one of my classes, you would find that everything you said is untrue as I have clearly explained above.
  
  Thank you for inviting me 🙂 Thank you also for respecting my experience :-)))
  I agree, experiences are dependent arising they can never be “for all” but there can be a setting that potentially creates more people being harmed than benefited in the long run (like in the case of drugs: initially good experiences [not for everbody] and at the end only harm and addiction [not for every one but most of the people])
  
  I hope that this helps you to understand the York Modern Buddhism Society a bit better.
  
  Thank you!
  
  (I wrote this in a hurry and made slight changes when I detected some errors.)
- 163
  
  john6747 on October 6, 2013 at 5:37 pm
  Reply
  
  Thomas
  I have no doubt you have the best motivation in running your Society, but I have some reservations.
  You say…
  ‘ I founded and run the Modern Buddhism Society at York! hehe.
  Our true nature is simply me giving some basic Buddhist teachings and guiding meditations, based on Geshe-la’s instructions. It’s true that I follow the Kadampa tradition, but that’s no secret, and there is nothing at all secretive about our true nature! I know this to be true because I run the society!’
  Fair enough.
  You say…
  ‘General information
  We are connected with the local Buddhist centre in Pocklington’
  I have looked at the Madhayamaka website and they do not include you as a venue in York for their teachings.
  Are you an accredited NKT teacher?
  You may wish to Google ‘Nick Gillespie’ to find out how the NKT dealt with someone who, although advocating ‘Geseh la’s teaching, was threatened with a lawsuit for using the teachings without authorisation.
  You are charging £5 for membership so I suppose you are handing over any surplus, after paying for your venue rental to the NKT?
  - 164
    
    john6747 on October 7, 2013 at 9:06 am
    Reply
    
    Whilst I am on my ‘soap box’ I am reminded that the Kadampa Primary School is raising money for a charity other than itself.
    
    ‘Please help support our first fundraising event this Autumn Term. We will be supporting the “World’s Biggest Coffee Morning” for Macmillan this Friday 27th September, by hosting a Coffee & Cake event in the afternoon starting 3pm. We will also be hosting a Body Shop Stall and Raffle, proceeds to Macmillan. So bring along grandparents and siblings, with pocket-money! If you are unable to attend, you can still buy Raffle Tickets for £2 each. Tickets on sale now!’
    
    Internal Rules.
    
    18§7. Unless approved by the Directors of the NKT Charity and the Education Council Representatives, no NKT-IKBU Dharma Centre, Teacher or student shall raise money in NKT-IKBU Dharma Centres for the development of non-NKT-IKBU organizations or projects, or for non-NKT-IKBU private individuals.
    
    2§2. The members of the Education Council shall be the Resident Teachers of all NKT-IKBU Dharma Centres except Manjushri KMC, the Mother Centre of the NKT-IKBU.
    
    I presume the above were consulted?
    
    I have nothing against the children raising cash for a worthy appeal but I remember being told that to raise money for charities like this was nothing more than ‘using sticking plaster to cover a large wound’.
    - 165
      
      fleadle on October 7, 2013 at 5:40 pm
      Reply
      
      Dear Jon, I can’t know for sure but I believe it’s part of them trying to rebrand and improve their public image. One thing I know four sure is they wouldn’t do this if it didn’t benefit the NKT some how.
- 166
  
  john6747 on October 6, 2013 at 5:50 pm
  Reply
  
  Hi Tenpel
  
  I may have already got through with this post but it doesn’t show up on my screen
  
  Never mind.
  
  My message for Thomas was to watch out as the Madhyamaka website does not show his Society as a venue for their teachings.
  
  We all know what happened with Nick Gillespie when he wanted to refer to ‘Geshe la’s’ teachings.
  
  Is Thomas accredited?
  
  What does he do with the £5 membership fee?
  
  If my previous post addressed to Thomas has got through ignore this one.
  - 167
    
    tenpel on October 6, 2013 at 6:18 pm
    Reply
    
    Hi John,
    the comment shows up on your screen but only if you didn’t delete the cookie cache or if cookies are allowed. All comments have to be approved before showing up.
    
    I deleted the later comment which was almost identical with the new comment.
168

fleadle on October 7, 2013 at 5:51 pm
Reply

Dear Tenpel, I thought I’d just let you know when I taught a university society class for the NKT it also we never listed as an official NKT class I think this is because it was a society thing rather than a gp but it was never separate from the NKT. It got a lot of younger people into NKT some of whom are still involved and who gave up university for life in the centre, feels awful that promising students gave up a bright future in part because if me. It gets to people at a young and vulnerable age when they are unsure which direction to go in. I know of one guy who had a good family they were so concerned about his involvement they sought help and eventually got him out which I was so happy about because at the time I was one if the people trying to get him to stay. Looking back I can’t believe how selfish I was.
- 169
  
  tenpel on October 7, 2013 at 6:02 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you very much Fleadle for sharing this. This is exactly what my and others’ concern is.
  It is a method to ‘recruit’ new, young people for the ‘NKT empire building’ …
  There is a reason why young people are used for building armies because they have not too much life experience, can be easier formed and used for such purposes.
170

sebfranc on July 8, 2015 at 6:58 pm
Reply

It may be relevant to mention that the teachings of the Dalai Lama and the NKT are the same for about 99 %. Clearly the conflict between the Dalai Lama and the NKT centers around a non-issue, and as such is a waste of (negative) energy. Don’t we all have something better to do with our time?

It is true that the NKT pays very little to those that work for them, but people know this beforehand. If you regret the results later, you regret the effects of your own bad decision,
- 171
  
  tenpel on July 8, 2015 at 9:09 pm
  Reply
  
  You err. There are great differences between what NKT and Dalai Lama are teaching. The NKT is not even accepted as a Gelug school by the Indian-based Tibetan Gelugpa society.
  
  What people don’t know beforehand is the level of involvement they will be finally sucked in once they follow NKT. This level of involvement is based on a skilful and exploitive manipulation process only few can withstand. The warning of INFORM for controversial groups fits well to the NKT:
  
  Not all paths are equally safe. Some movements promise solutions to life’s problems, but can leave you with more problems than you started with. They may:
  – Be dishonest or secretive about their true nature
  – Demand much more of your time than you expected
  – Cost you a lot of money and leave you in debt
  – Harm your relationships with your family and friends
  – Make you emotionally dependent on the group, so you find it difficult to leave
  
  Click to access SEARCHING%20Sept2012.pdf

	Tenzin Peljor on The Clear Light of Kelsang Gya…
	Tenpel on Website Invites People to Expl…
	Mike on The Clear Light of Kelsang Gya…
	Vincent Fletcher on The Clear Light of Kelsang Gya…
	Molly on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…
	Lena on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…
	Lena on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…
	tenpel on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…

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