Buddhism, Dialogue, New Kadampa Tradition, Religion

by tenpelJuly 11, 20132:13 pm

Ex-NKT: Past or Present?

Guest Post by LifeGoesOn

It’s now a few years since I left NKT. Recently I’ve been talking to a counsellor for various issues, and inevitably my NKT experiences have been part of that. My counsellor is highly qualified, and the first person I’ve met in the statutory mental health services (ie. NHS and social services) who is a spiritual person herself and happy to use her own experience to understand spiritual issues of her clients.

I’ve talked with her about spirituality in general and NKT issues specifically, especially having been ordained with them and lived in their communities, and she does understand the seriousness of spiritual abuses at some level. She doesn’t set herself up as a spiritual advisor, it’s just helpful that generally she understands things many counsellors etc don’t have a clue on and will listen to but struggle to feed back on.

But recently she asked a question that I can’t comprehensively answer, so I’ve asked Tenzin to post this on one of his blogs to see what other ex-members of NKT and other cults have to say on it. The question is simply: why, years after having left, do so many of us still feel the need to read and discuss NKT/ex-NKT issues (or those of “your” specific cult) online? This is perhaps in the knowledge that sometimes this reading and discussion can be a trigger for difficult feelings and thoughts of how we were confused and exploited within NKT (or other cult).

My sense in feeling towards an answer (not that I think there is only one) is that we have had intense experiences that only other ex-cult members can truly understand.

But then I wonder, are we drawn back into the discussions through an addiction to that kind of intensity of memory and identification more than anything else? In other words, in doing this, trying to clarify our experiences, and share where we’ve got to, inform others etc, are we helping ourselves and each other, or keeping ourselves stuck in our history? And, can or even should, we try to leave that history behind? Whatever I am now, it matters to me that I was a nun, and before that a very dedicated lay Buddhist, even if badly misled by NKT.

I’m not in a miserable life now, or anything like that, but having the opportunity to talk with a counsellor who has a broad spiritual take on things when necessary, it seems a good time to ask questions that might clarify things for both her and myself, and perhaps others who come across these discussions.

I look forward to your thoughts
LifeGoesOn

Please note: I’m not looking for personal advice – my life is about as OK as it gets – but for general discussion on the issue of ex-cult members continuing to discuss the cult for years after leaving. So please no personal comments and especially no personally critical remarks – of me or anyone else. Thanks!

19Comments

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1

tenpel on July 11, 2013 at 3:06 pm
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Thank you LGO!

why, years after having left, do so many of us still feel the need to read and discuss NKT/ex-NKT issues (or those of “your” specific cult) online?

My thoughts are (with respect to my own person):

In the very beginning (and for the duration of four years as EX-NKT) I needed people who can understand me, and with whom I could discuss the NKT openly. From all the Buddhists outside of NKT I met there were only four persons who showed sympathy for my situation and didn’t think that I am crazy or warned me “Don’t speak bad about your spiritual teacher”. There was only one person who understood me + had compassion + the knowledge to help me, and this was Alex Berzin in Berlin.

I was fortunate enough to live in a community of EX-NKT for some years, and we were able to help each other to get clarity. In that time I needed not only those discussions very much but I needed also much input and absorbed many things and reflected on them to get clarity. I found especially anti-cult websites that explained the dynamics of cults, and the personal help and teachings by Alexander Berzin and qualified Buddhist teachers extremely helpful.

It was of importance for me to read certain things again and again – and again and again – and to reflect on them in order to overcome my doubts: “Am I wrong, am I right in my perception?” NKT has thoroughly undermined my discriminating faculties and sew the tendency to blame always myself and undermined my self-esteem and the trust in my own intuition and judgements. Then there was this strong tendency which increased in NKT enormously to think in black and white patterns. There was a complex and crazy mindset ingrained in my mind based on the misleading teachings, misunderstandings and manipulations within NKT that I had to face with and from which I had to get rid of. This was not that easy but to read every bit critical of NKT or about cults and mainstream Buddhism helped me tremendously to put my experiences and thoughts into perspective.

Though at that time there was not much NKT criticism available – except by Thubten Gönpo (which was very useful for me / except for his polemical style) – certain things related to cult issues, NKT, Buddhism etc. I had to read again and again in order to stabilize my perception, awareness and to get certainty and a better knowledge of things. The key point was to learn to trust myself again and to develop understanding about what happened in order to avoid to be caught in anger and being unable to forgive.

After having gained certainty and clarity (which took me four years of hard work) I started on different levels to inform people about the dangers there are if someone enters this organisation, and I started to undermine NKT’s attempt to include disinformation in Wikipedia (until I gave up in April 2008). My engagement since then is mainly to help others either to not step into NKT, or to ease their transition process if they want to leave NKT or just have left it.
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  fleadle on July 14, 2013 at 7:26 pm
  Reply
  
  Thanku LGO for bringing up this subject it has been on my mind a great deal since leaving the NKT. At first I needed to share my story, people I cared about had been hurt and everyone was staying quiet and writing the usual NKT B.S. I felt for one someone had to speak out, of me doing that helped just one person that would be an improvement on my NKT time. It was not easy writing a blog on my experience and digging for more stories and info.At first I felt relief others had experienced the same as me,I want crazy, my instincts were right.The more I dug the more dirt I found, it seemed endless but I knew these people were not lying most of it was true. When I left NKT I lost my family, people who had been my friends for 10 years dropped me like a hot rock because I had doubts, the wrong kind of doubts, they even tell you what doubts your permitted to have. After writing my blog I was contacted by so many NKT friends who had left before me or were trying to pull out, they told me they were so happy I spoke out, and I knew I had helped people out felt good. Then some of my friends who were ex NKT told me out would be best of I stayed quiet, that way I would lose all my friends in NKT, but to me this was just NKT brainwashing speaking, just shut up, be a good Buddhist and say nothing, trust the Guru, be a good robot, don’t think. Then I knew in my heart I had to keep speaking out,I was sick of being told to shut up. Martin Luther king said,’silence on times of evil is the worse act.’ These blogs and survivors group helped me feel less alone, over night I lost nearly all my friends,I felt cheated, hurt, lost, scared it effected me in so many ways and my so called friends were not there for me. It seemed to me everyone in the NKT is great at taking about love and Compassion but when it comes to it they don’t step up, it’s just an idea,a fantasy. I feel I’ve helped more in the 2 years since I left than in my 10 years in the NKT. I have noticed some people can be very bitter and I don’t feel that’s good for them or anyone. It wasn’t all bad in the NKT, the first year was one of the best of my life,I travelled about which I wouldn’t have done before, and from traveling down the wrong path I have learnt what is best for me and I now feel I am on the right track, but I feel if I speak out I may stop others being at risk in the NKT because so many have been harmed so much it breaks my heart. This is some good I can do for myself and others, it feels healing but if I’m still doing this in 5 years I may start to worry, one day we must move on and I’m sure when GKG dies the NKT will fall like a deck of cards on the wind. And it will be a strange feeling when it does, I’ll be happy for those who won’t be trapped in it but I’ll be sad for those who dedicated do much to the NKT and will be cast adrift with no understanding of how to live outside the NKT bubble.
  - 3
    
    tenpel on July 21, 2013 at 12:18 am
    Reply
    
    Thank you fleadle for sharing this, thank you to give your voice.
    Much love,
    t
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  Truth on August 26, 2013 at 3:15 am
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  I just left, and I agree with you. These people are very harmful. Please, keep warning others.
  - 5
    
    tenpel on August 26, 2013 at 12:25 pm
    Reply
    
    Thank you for you frank comments.
    
    I am happy to hear that you were able to leave NKT.
    Sending you warm wishes and wishing you all the best and good support on your path,
    Tenzin
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    LifeGoesOn on August 26, 2013 at 6:42 pm
    Reply
    
    I wish you all the best also. Leaving is a big step, and there is more work to do afterwards, sometimes for a long time, but it’s worth it, and there is support out here on the internet, and likely among ex-NKT in your area if you can tap into it. Good luck!
7

The Devils Advocate on July 11, 2013 at 3:26 pm
Reply

“…are we drawn back into the discussions through an addiction to that kind of intensity of memory and identification more than anything else? In other words, in doing this, trying to clarify our experiences, and share where we’ve got to, inform others etc, are we helping ourselves and each other, or keeping ourselves stuck in our history? And, can or even should, we try to leave that history behind?”
Surely it is the case that many of those who post do so out of compassion for others, in the hope that they can protect others from experiencing the sufferings they themselves have endured?
While, from a personal perspective, it may be useful to forget for a while, warning others of danger should never be undervalued-its the practice of giving fearlessness and is a valid form of buddhist practice.
In short, from a personal perspective, we need to move beyond the past, but from the viewpoint of others, we have a duty to revisit it, at least for a while-or should we just stay quiet and let others learn for themselves? Imagine the consequences of such inaction in both the short and long term, for ourselves, for others, and for buddhism. Not an option
8

Carol McQuire on July 11, 2013 at 4:45 pm
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Dear LifeGoesOn,

I would agree with Tenzin that it is/was a lack of clarity about my situation that makes/made me ‘carry on looking’. The only remotely ‘bodhisattva-like’ activity I could do after I left was to ‘help out’ on survivors – some of the accounts off group were/are heart breaking – and I felt too paralysed and exhausted to work, either volunteer or paid. When I did start volunteer work – for Mind – the NKT set up a ‘meditation group’ right beside the room where I was volunteering inside the local Psychiatric Hospital!! It was a continual encounter that made me keep on asking questions of myself – why was I so upset? What could I do about this?

My answer is that clarity reduces the intensity, for me…I will try to explain.

Sorry if this is rather long but your question is an important one that many people ask, both ex-NKTers, NKTers, and ‘outsiders’.

I found the most pervasive feeling for me after leaving the NKT has been confusion. And, like Tenzin, it is ‘hard work’ that has enabled me to start to understand it all with more clarity – I have now met many teachers and had many different kinds of teachings, something which the Tibetans and other Buddhists suggest you do at the beginning of a spiritual path, but I was in a hurry when I joined the NKT!

I felt I had to distinguish between what was my ‘own’ issue and what were issues common to many survivors. I felt (and still feel) a deep distrust both of other people and of my own ability to choose what was/is good for me. I didn’t have supportive people around me when I left; I also had children and as a woman couldn’t find anywhere to ‘re-ordain’ in the Tibetan system without having to leave my child. So I felt very trapped by my NKT expectations and betrayed my ‘their’ lack of ethics into having to break my ordination vows (which then turned out not to be ‘real’ vows anyway – another disillusion!!). It’s been layer after layer of uncovering misunderstandings and trying to be patient with myself in the process as I have been very angry and I think it’s been too easy for me to ignore that anger as it was so painful to look at – perhaps my anger was a sign that I was always the one ‘in the wrong’ not the NKT!

It is only since I have started to ‘cut the line in the right place’ that I have started to recover, in terms of not getting upset either with NKT activities in my area (and the frequent contact with NKTers in places I least expect them to be!) or with my own previous choice of practice. The ‘right place’ has involved appreciating where the NKT ‘got it right’ i.e. a kind of balance that has come through analysis and experience. I didn’t find I started to heal until I understood both about my own ‘part’ in the process of becoming such an NKT stalwart and my subsequent ‘idealist’ disillusion ( and accepting this emotionally, recognising how deep my anger was took years!) as well as understanding more about the context of the NKT has in Tibetan Buddhism. Reading the Dalai Lama’s works really gave me perspective on the latter.

I think that your question about intensity rightly names how profound the NKT experience can be – I think that whether it’s good to discuss things depends on the results for each of us – so many survivors tell me that they feel less lonely when able to discuss this with people who understand what they feel once in a while. In a recent seminar talk at Inform a psychologist who researches and supports people leaving new religious movements said that it could be as traumatic as the experiences of military people traumatised by war. I think it’s good not to minimise the intensity of our experience but when people don’t understand it’s easy to do so. I am happy you have found a sympathetic counsellor.

I find it very interesting that you post this here and not onto the survivors yahoo group. Would you be kind enough to say why? I imagine it would probably have to do with Tenzin’s presence!!! I wonder if we could come up with other ways of supporting each other. Do you have any suggestions? Perhaps that’s not in the remit of this discussion though.

Best wishes,

Carol
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  LifeGoesOn on July 15, 2013 at 12:15 pm
  Reply
  
  Carol, you ask why I posted here and not to the survivors group. If you want to copy the post to the group, or post a link to it, that’s OK. I’m not a member of the group, though I have been in the past. Ultimately I didn’t find it all that useful, and I’m aware some people have felt that the behaviour of some group members has made things worse for them post-NKT, rather than better.
  
  Another reason is the group has tended to update each other on developments in NKT over time, and I don’t want that much focus on them in my life. I want to be able to help others with regards NKT, whether preventatively or supportively afterwards, and I hope that my posts and comments do. But there is an element where I feel the survivors group can make me into a sort of NKT groupie, being very concerned with whatever they do, when my focus is more about understanding what happened when I was there and how that impacts and changes over time.
  
  A recent poster here reminded me that the NKT situation/existence may not be as stable as it would seem in the long term anyway, as they still have the inevitable death of KG to face, and that may well to lead to the demise of NKT altogether. I suspect that when this happens it will be a gradual and painful process for NKT members, beginning with one or two centres here and there collapsing or becoming independent, and snowballing from there, and it will be very important then for there to be supports available to those people when they come looking for them. So in that light (others too of course) it is important that for some time these discussions and forums remain in place and active. That may be a good time for myself and others who have been ex-NKT for a while to return and offer support where we can.
10

The Devils Advocate on July 12, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Reply

LGO Im somewhat concerned at any ‘counselor’ who is willing to bring their so called spirituality (whatever that might be) into their role as an NHS professional-indeed, the whole thing smacks of self appointed gurus/quacks getting paid from public funds for tinkering with other peoples minds, at the others expense-where does one qualify in this diploma which mixes self taught ‘spirituality’ (whatever that might be, again) with NHS approved counseling techniques?
Again, the issue of whether one should rake over the ashes of ones experience or simply put it behind oneself is highly controversial, though perhaps not as controversial as an NHS professional advising a vulnerable person (youre there BECAUSE youre vulnerable) to ‘not think about it’. Such simplistic advice might work for children and imaginary crocodiles under the bed, but is it really advisable to tell someone who has been traumatised not to revisit the experience? Doesnt this smack of plain old suppression and isnt that a thoroughly well proven recipe for disaster? Unexorcised ghosts tend to return to haunt us, after all
Perhaps the advice to check out the guru for 12 years before placing our fragile minds in their hands should be extended to include psychiatric healthcare professionals.
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  tenpel on July 12, 2013 at 3:30 pm
  Reply
  
  A psychologist who wrote on cults in a reputable German psychological journal wrote:
  
  Das größte Risiko für einen Therapieerfolg liegt aber in der Person des Therapeuten selbst! Er läuft Gefahr, zum neuen Guru des Aussteigers zu werden. Der Aussteiger sucht einen Ersatz für seinen abhanden gekommenen Gott, Vater oder Guru, und sein Bedürfnis nach Abhängigkeit und Unterwerfung schwebt bindungslos im Raum. Auf der anderen Seite steht ein Mann oder eine Frau, ein Mensch jedenfalls, der einer Berufsgruppe angehört, die sich zu einer „elitären Sekte“ von modernen Sehern und Heilern entwickelt und weite Bereiche in der Gesellschaft okkupiert, die ursprünglich der Religion vorbehalten waren.
  
  Auf die Gefahr hin, Sie vollends zu verärgern und einen vielstimmigen Aufschrei der Entrüstung zu ernten, will ich hier mit der Behauptung schließen: In jedem von uns steckt ein kleiner Guru! Wie sonst hätten wir diese Profession gewählt?!
  – See more at: http://buddhistische-sekten.de/Ausstieg.html#Roderigo
  
  Google translation:
  
  The biggest risk to successful therapy lies in the person of the therapist himself! He runs the risk of becoming the new guru of the dropout. The dropout looking for a replacement for his mislaid God, Father or Guru, and his need for dependence and submission floats in space without ties. On the other hand a man or a woman, a human in any case, a member of a professional group that is developing into a “elitist sect” of modern seers and healers and wide areas occupied in society that were originally reserved for religion.
  
  At the risk of offending you, and to fully reap a multi-vocal outcry, here I will close by saying: In each of us has a little guru! How else would we have chosen this profession?
  
  However, I think the key point LGO is stressing that she has a counsellor who 1) understands her 2) has a spiritual background.
  
  This is rare and difficult to find. I know an EX-NKT nun, she tried FIVE psychologists. All of them had no clue about her decision to become a nun or her spirituality. And each of them started the therapy by questioning her decision to become a nun in the first place. As a result this nun lost all faith into therapy and felt totally abandoned, misunderstood and alone.
  - 12
    
    LifeGoesOn on July 12, 2013 at 6:30 pm
    Reply
    
    Tenpel wrote “However, I think the key point LGO is stressing that she has a counsellor who 1) understands her 2) has a spiritual background.”
    
    Yes, thank you. It is rare these days in the general scheme of things to find people with any understanding of what it is like to have spiritual needs and to try to get them met/learn how to meet them oneself, and this counsellor is one who can understand this. She’s not generally giving me spiritual advice as such, but when I talk about NKT and other spiritual areas she understands and asks intelligent, relevant questions, unlike most NHS/social services people who get uneasy and just don’t know what to do with it, and make remarks or ask questions that show they have thoroughly missed the point. Or, as one “professional” I talked to responded, “wow, that was deep. I’m off to have a fag break and recover”. Seriously!!!
    
    This counsellor is definitely not my guru! I plan to direct her attention to this thread when there’s a bit more on it, and I don’t know if she’d be offended or amused at the suggestion! heh.
    
    And yes, thank you tenpel for directing the thread away from attempts to give personal advice. I asked a very specific question, and anyone who has forgotten what it is can go back to the article and look for the bit in bold type 🙂 That and that alone is the point of interest here.
    
    Tenpel wrote: “This is rare and difficult to find. I know an EX-NKT nun, she tried FIVE psychologists. All of them had no clue about her decision to become a nun or her spirituality. And each of them started the therapy by questioning her decision to become a nun in the first place. As a result this nun lost all faith into therapy and felt totally abandoned, misunderstood and alone”
    
    Yes. Not just therapists, of course, people in the world in general find it hard to grasp why any of us would do that, and want to try to root out something “wrong with us” to explain the whole thing away, perhaps. Which I guess leads to part of the answer to my question: we need to keep talking to each other because with each other, on the whole, we know there is understanding of these basics, upon which we can build further dialogue and exploration. Without that foundation there’s no chance, and as the nun you mention experienced, nowhere to even begin to discover the real issues, much less go on to explore and resolve any of them.
    
    I intend to contribute further following the first few replies on this thread, but need to take some time to assimilate what has been said and see what response comes up to it all.
    
    (Sorry I don’t know how to get quotes to come up clearly separated, as other people do. There must be a secret I’m not privy to!)
    - 13
      
      tenpel on July 12, 2013 at 8:22 pm
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      Thank you, LGO.
      
      I think after leaving NKT one won’t find easily any person that has sympathy for the situation one is facing and going through. A person who takes at least time to try to understand one’s own situation or even can understand it is by far rarer.
      
      So though EX-NKT need clarity it is hard to find it, that’s why I think, one has to read certain testimonies or facts or experiences made within NKT again and again in order to get clarity. It is not so much attachment which brings one back to read those “Anti”-NKT accounts again and again but a deeper wish to get rid of confusion and to have more clarity, and a wish to get rid of distrusting oneself so deeply and to have more confidence in one’s own judgements, understanding and decisions etc.
      
      In my case, it was also extremely helpful to read the account of the former body guard of Kelsang Gyatso again and again. And even nowadays if FLeadle for instance says something about the questionable personality (the aggression) of Kelsang Gyatso, this is still very useful for me [though in the beginning I was not very open about it because I feared “too much negativity”] because it approves my perception and decisions why I had to leave NKT and inform people about it. I have still a tendency to distrust myself (which in general is not too bad but done in an extensive manner it might not be very healthy or doesn’t contribute to stability of the mind).
      
      With respect to include quotes in your comments put the quote in the following code:
      start the quote with: <blockquote> end the quote with </blockquote>
      - 14
        
        LifeGoesOn on July 13, 2013 at 11:42 am
        Reply
        
        Thanks, tenpel. I reread the former bodyguard’s account since you posted the link and I have to agree – seeing someone else’s confusion and also some of the stuff going on that most of us didn’t see directly, but was there … is helpful to have a broader view of NKT and the whole experience of being in it.
        
        I agree with others, Carol in particular, that many of us keep posting on these sites to try to help others, whether to warn them away before they get involved, help those currently in NKT but unsure, or to support those who are leaving/have left. But I also think caution is needed in thinking this is just done from generosity of spirit. There’s lots of information online now, and it’s very possible that there can be an unhealthy element to participating on these sites too much.
        
        Don’t get me wrong, what some of us are doing I really admire. Tenzin for his blogs and committed support of ex-NKT in particular, Carol for her role in helping to reform NKS, for her work with Inform and for getting reputably published recently :-), and others too. EKC’s articles still come up early on in google searches, Dave Cuts did so much (I’m not sure if he’s still active), John Swainson made major efforts with the charities commission, suchlike. (Apologies to anyone who feels they should be listed here and aren’t; I don’t read everything out there).
        
        Something that troubles me at times is the unhealthy discussion that can get going on these sites, any of the sites, but then again to stop providing discussion space because of unhealthy people and trolling would be counterproductive. I see that there needs to be continually updated information, or else the NKT’s cry that all this stuff is in the past could look more valid. Just that for me, and I sense for other ex-NKT who post, sometimes those discussions end up getting personal and painful rather than clarifying and supportive.
        
        I see also that time to time someone who has been very active online as ex-NKT decides it’s time to move on. I’ve done it myself a few times … but always ended up coming back to it. This is a rhetorical question so please don’t answer it, but I have wondered at times if LifeGoesOn needs to just get a life unrelated to NKT at all! But then I guess if it was all sorted for me and for others that would be easy enough. Of course it isn’t.
        
        15
        
        LifeGoesOn on July 13, 2013 at 12:52 pm
        Reply
        
        Just want to add Xtranormal Buddhist to the list of those who have done much online to help people avoid or get over NKT. Love the cartoons 🙂
        
        16
        
        tenpel on July 15, 2013 at 2:26 pm
        
        This is so much true! Her cartoons are a great help. BTW INFORM thinks that these types of cartoon are in general a very good way for people who have left New Religious Movements to express themselves …
        
        17
        
        tenpel on July 21, 2013 at 12:34 am
        Reply
        
        Thank you for your thoughtful comment and sharing your critical reflection!
        
        But I also think caution is needed in thinking this is just done from generosity of spirit. There’s lots of information online now, and it’s very possible that there can be an unhealthy element to participating on these sites too much.
        
        I agree.
        
        Something that troubles me at times is the unhealthy discussion that can get going on these sites, any of the sites, but then again to stop providing discussion space because of unhealthy people and trolling would be counterproductive. I see that there needs to be continually updated information, or else the NKT’s cry that all this stuff is in the past could look more valid. Just that for me, and I sense for other ex-NKT who post, sometimes those discussions end up getting personal and painful rather than clarifying and supportive.
        
        Yes. this is also very true. Personally I am very sad that we had a lot of also painful, hurting discussions. I made also many faults myself and there are many I am just not aware of. There are a lot unhealthy and painful actions which I feel very sad about.
        On the other hand. We were all extremely conditioned in a very unhealthy organisation, we developed unconsciously a lot of unhealthy patterns and behaviours and we will be a rather long time under the influence of many unhealthy habits until we get gradually aware of them and learn to see, face and work with them. Seeing this, I have a lot of tolerance with the less nice things, though I feel sad about them because they also block the healing process though their presence is rather something natural.
        
        It might be good to learn to support each other better to follow a mindful way to deal with things. On the other hand, many have oppressed their feelings, have been manipulated to ignore, not to see them etc. There is so much pressure in NKT and people allowed other to or pressurize themselves so much that people who leave NKT should have also the space to express their feelings and emotions, a space NKT never has given. However, this is only an initial step later a more balanced approach is needed BUT this needs time, time, time and some work on oneself …
        
        I see also that time to time someone who has been very active online as ex-NKT decides it’s time to move on. I’ve done it myself a few times … but always ended up coming back to it. This is a rhetorical question so please don’t answer it, but I have wondered at times if LifeGoesOn needs to just get a life unrelated to NKT at all! But then I guess if it was all sorted for me and for others that would be easy enough. Of course it isn’t.
        
        Maybe the process of healing and transition is not yet done.
        According to my experience and observation a recovery from NKT might take as long or even longer than one was in that organisation. But this depends also on one’s level of involvement and other factors. It is not that easy “to let go NKT” and there are many reasons for it why this is so.
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  tenpel on July 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm
  Reply
  
  Please TDA also note the note of LGO:
  
  Please note: I’m not looking for personal advice … but for general discussion on the issue of ex-cult members continuing to discuss the cult for years after leaving. So please no personal comments and especially no personally critical remarks – of me or anyone else. Thanks!
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The Devils Advocate on July 12, 2013 at 3:44 pm
Reply

My comments were made for general consumption and i would say the same to everyone-i wish LGO happiness, to be achieved with caution!

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