Ex-NKT as an Identity

The following is a post by a former member of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT-IKBU)

I’ve been ex-NKT now for longer than I was a member of this organisation. Recently, reading about ex-Catholics, I managed to convince myself I’d really got to grips with this and NKT was no longer a major factor in my thinking – after all, the ex-Catholic women I read about had been raised Catholic, attended Convent schools and had the whole of their formative years shaped by the institution of the Catholic church and its attitudes. I, on the other hand, spent a few years in my early thirties voluntarily living in NKT centres and following their practices.

But it is not so simple. Like Catholics, we immersed ourselves in a way of life that is a total mystery to outsiders, learning to think the NKT way, to speak the language on a day to day basis (gompa, puja, Geshe-la, Kangso, Lama Chopa and so on), following the monthly and yearly calendar (8th Tara Day, 10th and 25th Offering to the Spiritual Guide, 29th Kangso, Spring Festival, Summer Festival, UK Dharma Celebration). We came to take for granted the rituals and offerings – Tsog pujas, offering Shugden the alcohol, tea, cake, milk and curd, empowerments, and so on – and learned how to explain these to new people.

When we left usually it was a sudden break off from this life and lingo, with no one to talk to about the reintegration processes we had to go through, at the same time as dealing with our mixed feelings about what happened to us during our time in NKT and the specifics that led us to depart.

Somehow, it doesn’t go away with the years, not completely. I have a different life now, different Dharma input and different company. Yet when someone on my higher education course forum posted a link to a Western Shugden Society “documentary” following our 30 page study of the Dalai Lama I quickly felt the old sense of bogging down, of dismay, of utter inability to explain these things or make them better – or even to explain how deeply it affects me just to keep repeatedly posting that as Westerners we have no basis on which to understand, to which I want to add, especially if you’ve never been a member of the Shugden cult, and then gone through leaving.

I’m learning that ex-NKT is an identity, and an enduring one. As ex-NKT perhaps we need to bear that in mind, and if necessary find ways to explain it to significant people in our lives – though they probably will not understand. I don’t have a clue what we can do when the issue comes up with people who are not so significant to us!

I certainly recommend reading about ex-Catholics: it’s an interesting perspective and I think we can learn a lot and realise that although our institution was different our processes may be similar – and equally valid.

I’m not writing this to complain about being deeply damaged or wounded by NKT, more to reassure those who have left for some time yet not completely left it behind – maybe we never do and maybe to recognise this is important in the process of living the rest of this life. I welcome your thoughts on this!

259Comments

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1

ratikala on May 10, 2012 at 10:12 pm
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dear ….long time estranged nkt member ,

yes your reflections seem familliar to me allso , I too am a long , long time estranged member and yes it stays with you , it is simply for me that I look back with less bitterness than some others , that bitterness I see as , more destructive than the system itself .
fortunately I had read and studdied heavily before meeting the nkt so it wasnt all quite as new and facinating as it is to some and on first meeting I was sepperating the enthusiasm from the true buddha dharma , but still that enthusiastic attitude of the nkt is something that permiates ones being and ones outward language .(even when at times I didnot feel in total agreement , still being around a way of thinking familiarises one with that way of thinking , it is there as a pattern )

I feel that it is possible to move on without attatchment , but still to carry an imprint of having been there , it is still in our vocabulary but we do not nececarily still use it , prehaps I never fully addopted it (I never felt that I realy fitted the group ethic)but still I see the thought process in motion even though it is not my own ! It is an nkt thought process , so simply I observe it , and let it pass by . but it is there , just as the phrase “though shalt not steal “is planted in the being of every school child of christian origin . I see the value of it but not the dogma , the value is universal just as is buddha dharma , but the dogma is the conventional reality part of the ignorance and unskillfull nature of samsarric existance .

I would not wish to over look the hurt that many have felt or to belittle anyone , nor condone any practices which have caused hurt or confusion, but simply from my own side to say that it is possible to move on , but to say allso that it is possible to move on but allso retain a positive imprint from the experience and the abbility to detatch from the negative experience it dosent happen in buddhism alone it happens everywhere , that dosent excuse it in the least , but it explains it !

how much use my reflection might be I do not know ?

but with best wishes to all .
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  EKC on May 16, 2012 at 9:37 pm
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  Thank you, ratikala. I’m the author of this piece. I suppose my thought is that it’s not at all bad to never forget, in many ways. Once bitten, twice shy … we can hopefully learn from the experience. I find a lot in common with the ex-NKT friends I’ve maintained contact with, there’s some value in the shared experience of being sucked in and then leaving, even though we went through it in different ways, and none of my ex-NKT friends ordained, some never even lived in a centre, and one seems to have come out completely unscathed by it all!
  
  Lessons to learn … that something that feels good may not be good … that when your instincts say “this is wrong” … learn to follow them, not go to someone more sucked in than you are for soothing down … that when you know a group has harmed others don’t wait until it harms you personally to leave it! And never never ever go along with something where the group justification mantra is that outsiders (including your close friends and family) cannot understand. What made us think we were so special?!
  
  It’s good to know in oneself the tendency to ignore warning signs in favour of some feelgood elements, to be on the alert, and to have others who have been through it to check things out with. Ex-NKT identity doesn’t have to be a bad thing, though there are bound to be sadnesses and a sense of betrayal as part of it. Live and learn – living is a default, but learning isn’t necessarily.
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    Fleadle on December 20, 2012 at 9:34 pm
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    Hi, I know you wrote this a while ago but it resonates with me now. I left the NKT 3 years ago, I was ordained for 4 years and involved for 10 years in all. It is probably only recently I have admitted to myself all the harm I was caused and 2 of my friends who have been very badly burned by the NKT helped me see just how bad it can get for some. The thing is you get so attached it is so difficult to let go until it has happened to you.That feeling of belonging in the NKT is very powerful. I have just lost an NKT friend of 10 years because I chose to speak out about the treatment of my friends at the hands of Geshe-la and because I was mistreated by my resident teacher. She told me via e-mail she could no longer see me, this stung though I get it, I know how deep in it we can get and how fearful it is to get out.(her whole life is NKT her husband too) It is sad to say but for everyone in the NKT until they suffer mistreatment they are unlikely to leave, because leaving is scary. II have a practise now I am happy with but I doubt I’ll ever trust a group or teacher again which saddens me. I hope I can move on in time but one thing I can say for a certainty is that thanks to travelling such a wrong road I now know what a right one feels like.
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      EKC on December 21, 2012 at 10:34 am
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      Hi Fleadle,
      I’m glad the writing continues to be useful 🙂 And yes, I know exactly where you’re coming from. I’ve just heard from an NKT friend, she wrote about Geshe-la and wanting to get to his next teachings because she’s sure they really will be his last (how long has *that* one been dragged out???) and it all causes me feelings that hark right back. I ran into an NKT monk a few weeks ago and that jolted me as well. I can only recommend talking about it and/or writing about it if you get the chance. Keep putting it out there, and if you can put out writing that might help others, or any other form of expression (eg those wonderful cartoons at xtranormalbuddhist), that helps. Others feel the same and contacting them, if possible helping them, is a good thing. Keep on keeping on! You’re in good company, in a strange kind of way!
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        fleadle on January 26, 2013 at 11:09 pm
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        Thank you EKC,I’ve only just read your reply. I have a blog site now you can read excerpts on this site, Reflections of an ex NKT practitioner. Plus links to my blog. Since doing this I’ve spoken to a few ex NKT ers and it had helped me and them. I am looking into Zen and learning to trust myself after years of being told I knew nothing. NKT was like an abusive parent and I’m learning to move on. Hearing others stories gives me strength. Thanks for your input it is food for thought.
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Sheila on May 21, 2012 at 11:43 pm
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I agree that it’s possible to maintain a positive imprint, even from a negative cult experience. I was a third-generation Seventh-Day Adventist; all of my family’s relatives on both sides, all our friends, all our colleagues, all our playmates, were Adventist. We didn’t associate with non-Adventists until well into our late teens.

My nuclear family is no longer with the church, but it took years and years to heal and recover from the separation. Three generations of Adventists just couldn’t understand our leaving, and we would receive anguished calls and letters from them. That was the hardest part–not any harm or physical imprisoning of any kind, but the heavy weight of others’ expectations.

However, Adventism has a very gentle and loving side, and it is those qualities I try to remember when thinking of my upbringing. I’ve noticed that different generations in my family feel differently–I have largely pleasant memories of Adventist life, but that’s because I was a child, free from all the adult obligations and strife. My mother, on the other hand, still experiences a lot of pain and resentment.

We, too, had our own language–and still use much of it. In a society as closed as Adventism or NKT, it’s almost impossible to make a clean break, because so much of the organization is woven into your speech, your though patterns, your physical regimen…I think it’s healthier to accept that it’s not really possible to shut all of that off, and that our way of “separating” will, by definition, not be total separation. If we lure ourselves (or others) into thinking there will be no residual effect, we set ourselves up for more pain. Our experience branded us, in a way, and we have to accept that brand, but also wholeheartedly realize that one can move happily through life, eventually, even bearing that brand. Try to put it to good use–like helping others who are trying to leave, for example. If we didn’t personally have the experience of leaving, we wouldn’t be as useful to those new “leavers.” That’s something to be grateful for.

I wish you both all the best in your healing journey, and thank you for writing up your experience so that others may begin theirs.
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Anonymous on May 22, 2012 at 5:29 am
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Levels of reality, material world and emotional world versus the world of spirit and transcendence. i think it is a real split – what do we want, the impersonal enlightenment of the archetypal Buddha, no feelings, no emotions allowed (hence the reason why so many NKT members are emotionally stunted, and I include myself in that category – we are afraid of our Selves, so we willingly give up our personality, exchanging it for who we are told we ‘ought’ to be)
but enticing nevertheless, imagine, no more suffering!
And then the nasty world of feelings we don’t know how to deal with, emotions we aren’t supposed to acknowledge.
Of course if we were Tibetan we’d have no problems here, self-image is assured if you are a Tibetan, but we westerners are trying to meld our culture with Tibetan culture, despite the assertion that ‘everything, all books and teachings are specially designed for the westerner.’
I am angry, have been for years, it doesn’t go away, and what is really sad, that I tried so hard to ‘fit in’, to do it ‘right’. It was a beautiful dream, but it isn’t life. I’m not bitter, but my faith has evaporated. I still practice in a cursory fashion, the Heart Sutra each morning out of an almost superstitious belief that it will protect me. So my faith hasn’t entirely vanished!
I have never dared to even think this before, let alone write it, maybe it will bring about some acceptance, who knows. I still have some statues, a shrine but dusty offering bowls ……
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  EKC on May 22, 2012 at 12:19 pm
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  Anonymous, I’m sorry it’s left you with so much upset and disgust. I have some of these feelings, but also remember that I gained a lot from my time in NKT, I am a better person for it. The main downside is I still haven’t really managed to reconcile myself with the Dharma, which is a positive need in my life. I practice Avalokiteshvara prayers a lot, but know I would follow through more if I backed the practice up with meditation reguarly, rather than managing it for a few days or weeks, then dropping away again.
  
  I do believe that Dharma taught and practised properly is a positive and beneficial thing. The trouble in NKT was those giving beautiful teachings were often also those directly or indirectly harming others through the organisation. I agree that this is likely to have emotional blunting and stunting effects.
  
  Do you have any ex-NKT friends? I find mine really help, though they are in different places in themselves – some still wanting to practice Dharma, only one managing any regular and fulfilling practice, and others who now abhor anything even vaguely religious and are still committed to bringing down the NKT. It’s interesting to see how others cope with it all and where it takes them. Seeing the possible range of reactions helps put one’s own in context.
  
  I like what you said that “it was a beautiful dream”. It was, and I hope that it is still possible to catch the edge of that dream by creating the causes to meet genuine teachers. It’s impossible at times not to be impatient that this hasn’t happened yet – I’ve met respected teachers but just not gelled with any of them so far.
  
  Sheila, have you thought of writing out your story to help others? I think on the whole there is nothing we can do for those still in these cults wholeheartedly, but we can help those who are feeling uneasy and those who have left but have little to measure their long term reactions against.
  
  I’m weighing up what you said about using our experience to help others trying to leave, as I have found this can be very emotionally draining when I get directly involved. By leaving these little markers here and there on the internet I hope to be a small positive influence without overwhelming myself. INFORM have appreciated some of my writing about NKT too.
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    anonymous on May 23, 2012 at 3:59 am
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    Thanks for the reply, I just wanted to assure you that I am not disgusted at all! Maybe only in the sense of being disgusted with myself at being so vulnerable, and weaker than I realized.
    And no, no ex-NKT friends.
    I know Geshe Kelsang is a genuine Guru, the Real thing. Whose sole interest in life is spreading Dharma, a very special being.
    But we live in an imperfect world, and his autocratic approach doesn’t work so well on our side of the planet. Any ‘genuine’ teacher who is Asian will hail from a similar culture. Anyone who has been to Asia will see that. Why do you think he uses Western teachers? To minimize the cultural differences. but it doesn’t work because the teachers emulate him, and pass it on to their students, and so it goes.
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  tenpel on May 22, 2012 at 12:37 pm
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  Thank you anonymous. I am very sorry to hear this.
  
  The path is not about repressing feelings or emotions, but to accept them, to learn them, to understand them. There are also practices where one just observes them, letting them peacefully come and go, learning to relax in the emotions, with the emotions. Other practices help to increase the positive emotions (like love, compassion, faith) and to decrease those emotions that harm oneself. However, it is a gradual process, that needs skills and knowledge, and everything starts from true acceptance of how we are at the moment, and that we have emotions and feelings.
  
  To say it frank – besides some of the positive effects one has in following NKT – what NKT present as Buddhas teachings or the Dharma is something very artificial which is not what one finds outside of NKT in the Buddhist traditions. I think it does just not work, it rather makes you a “Zombie”.
  
  Maybe you could find a way or support to sort out your situation?
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    anonymous on May 23, 2012 at 3:49 am
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    Thanks for writing back. I studied NKT Buddhism and Geshe Kelsangs books for many years and have found them truly inspiring. I have never received teachings from the ‘new generation’ of Kadampa Buddhists, so cannot comment, but I can assure you that if you go back to the books themselves there is a wealth of Dharma there. Again I don’t know much about the newer books (much of their content appears to be derived from excerpts of earlier books) but the older ones are quite something.
    
    You say ‘what the NKTrepresents’ – there does indeed seem to be a subculture of abuse, overworking people, lack of consideration, and unkindness. But do you believe it is an edict from the ‘top’? Or is it merely individuals who don’t know how to handle power?
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      tenpel on May 23, 2012 at 9:01 am
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      But do you believe it is an edict from the ‘top’? Or is it merely individuals who don’t know how to handle power?
      
      Its coming from the top. I remember that my NKT teacher was really overworked and then Geshe-la pushed that his books get into the bookshops and that public readings have to be organized. She couldn’t deal with the obvious lack of time and his demands. So she escaped or whitewashed the trouble by saying: “He is a Buddha he knows better what we can do and how to go beyond our limits.” When people complained directly about NKT teachers’ abusive behaviour it was Geshe-la who defended them, claiming the student who sees faults in his teacher lacks Bodhichitta or in the case of sexual abuse of Steven W. he accused the students reporting about the abuse to “destroy this pure tradition and harm millions of sentient beings …” As far as I see and witnessed he cannot tolerate a person close to him who doesn’t do what he wishes or who even dares to have a different opinion. If this happens he puts them dowm from power or position no matter how much they have worked for him or NKT. The NKT history is full of such stories. In my opinion he is an arbitrary autocrat and this creates an atmosphere of fear.
      
      If you don’t believe, even mundane people agree that to understand an organization one must look to the top.
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Sheila on May 22, 2012 at 3:02 pm
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On the off chance that the ex-NKTers here haven’t heard of it, though I imagine you have, there is a wonderful online group, “New Kadampa Survivors.” They discuss so many of the things you mention here, and some longtime ex-NKTers have found, and offered, amazing advice on finding peace again in life and in dharma for those who still seek a dharmic practice. It has 1086 members and growing, and is a really vibrant discussion community. If you google “New Kadampa Survivors” it will come up right away.
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  EKC on May 22, 2012 at 4:59 pm
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  I’m glad if there are people who benefit from the New Kadampa Survivors group, but personally I’ve been bullied off of it a few times, and find it appears to be run as a kind of old boys club, with in jokes and quite rude behaviour. It would be nice if it was a supportive forum for new NKT leavers, but in the past it certainly often hasn’t been. It may have changed, but my experience was every time over 5 years I gave it a go I wound up leaving disappointed and often badly treated along the way.
  
  Have been tempted to start my own group but worried it might go out of control the same way.
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    tenpel on May 22, 2012 at 11:26 pm
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    Thank you EKC, this is really sad. I hope that NKS members can hear your voice!
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LazyBuddhist on May 22, 2012 at 10:13 pm
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I haven’t visited for a while, but it’s interesting to come back to this post. I just posted myself a rumination on my current path. I haven’t thought about the NKT in terms of my own practice for a while. But, recently, having been dipping my toes in the Tibetan Buddhism waters, I’m seeing shadows of my NKT past. For instance, I told my Vajrayana teacher that guru devotion was simply off the table for me. I can’t do it. I’m not willing to go there again. Also, the folks that tend to attend Tibetan Buddhist teachings and retreats bear an uncomfortable resemblance in deportment to those in the NKT. But, this time around I’m much more attuned to my own inner guru and I don’t think I’m going to fall into the same trap again.
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  tenpel on May 22, 2012 at 11:33 pm
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  Nice to have have you here. I can utter understand that you told your Vajrayana teacher that guru devotion was simply off the table for you. What did he say?
  
  I left NKT in 2000, and the offspring-group of them in 2002. Only since last year I started to speak again of someone as “my teacher”, in the sense that I see this person as my spiritual teacher. It took me 10 years just to think and to say honestly: this is my teacher …
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    Carol on May 22, 2012 at 11:48 pm
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    EKC
    The survivors group is now much safer, nearly every post is moderated so that any difficulty can be recognised almost immediately. I am so sorry you had bad experiences with the group, but in the last year or so it has become a much more supportive place. I do hope you venture there again as your comments would be very welcome. There are still people leaving, suffering, pre-occupied, depressed, frightened.
    
    To all the people here; I have found friendship to be the most important relationship for healing the NKT world view. Firstly, Tenzin has been a very dear help – all his advice has been grounded and useful. He is a very kind and brave person.
    
    There are so many survivors who are brave and kind people. Thank you. The sincerity and honesty with which people here speak of their experiences whilst trying to ‘recover’ from the NKT are admirable.
    
    I think it’s so important to remember that there is no hurry at all to ‘see’ a Dharma teacher as one’s ‘teacher’. It is a profound and extraordinary relationship at it’s best. That kind of thing cannot be rushed or created through one’s own ‘faith’ (as the NKT would like you to do…) but through relationship – knowing a person, knowing a teacher.
    
    And, as well as friendship, taking it easy, and taking my time to ‘find’ a teacher (exploring a lot of different groups and practices) I found it helpful, though extremely difficult as so many emotions surfaced, to write my story…
    
    Good wishes to all
    
    Carol
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      tenpel on May 24, 2012 at 9:02 pm
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      Thank you Carol.
      I didn’t reply earlier because I didn’t aim to whitewash or to defend the New Kadampa Survivors Forum. Over the years some had trouble, some said to have been treated badly but also a lot of people reported to have gained benefit. I remember one person being expelled from NKS later wrote in an email to me, that difficulties which came up were also due to his own behaviour, and it would be unrealistic to expect too much balanced replies from people who just came out of a “cult”. So though he was expelled and spoke very baldy about NKS later he confirmed in an email it was still very helpful to him. Another challenge was in the past that devoted NKT members tried by all means to undermine the faith into the group often, making NKS an unsafe place, in the form of “forum trolls” and it was very hard for the moderators to see who is genuinely asking questions and cannot do better than to use the common “NKT propaganda speech” and who were abusing the forum for “NKT propaganda” trying again to manipulate NKS members by bending their mind to the “NKT truths”.
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    LazyBuddhist on May 22, 2012 at 11:54 pm
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    I don’t know if I will ever go back to the idea of one exclusive teacher. Different teachers can show me different facets of the dharma jewel. So, I think that there may be different teachers for different stages of my practice.
    
    My Vajrayana teacher was pretty unfazed by my declaration re: guru devotion being off the table. But then again, she is a Westerner herself and understands the Western mind, plus she seemed to grok the whole former NKT mindset.
    
    Glad to hear you once again can trust someone again with the title of “my teacher”.
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      tenpel on May 23, 2012 at 12:09 am
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      This sounds good that your Vajrayana teacher was unfazed by your declaration … good also that she understands Western mind and the former NKT mindset!
      
      I would not say that “my teacher” is my exclusive teacher. I have quite a lot of teachers they all teach me different things, they do exactly what you say they “show me different facets of the Dharma jewwel.” What I meant with “my teacher” is that there is a person who continuously cared for me without ever transgressing any boundary and that he has always shown the same face over years: kindness and being utter relaxed, open, compassionate and wise. I’ve never seen him in a bad mood, even when he was sick. I see him now as a person I can trust for the rest of my life. So what I meant with “my teacher” is that I found a person I can rely on no matter what happens. And though there are many other teachers who taught me extraordinary helpful methods, like Minygur Rinpoche, “my teacher” plays another role. He is the one I can always approach and who always aims to help me to grow.
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  anonymous on May 23, 2012 at 3:30 am
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  Yes, yes – the secret here, in my view, is not to see the NKT, or any other external force as something that has harmed you, because it is our failings and weaknesses that lead us to give up our inner conscience, ‘inner guru’. If you act like a door mat, then hey, guess what, you get treated like one!
  Neither the NKT, nor I suspect any other Buddhist organization worth its salt, is going to deliberately cause you mental and emotional harm.
  I have only myself and my ignorance to blame. I won’t fall into the same trap again, that’s for sure, but in the process I irrevocably lost something precious.
  
  Genuine Guru devotion is a truly wonderful experience, if if if, the disciple is mature enough to see it for what it is – a spiritual path. And the Guru a pure being with only your welfare at heart.
  But the danger then is that we superimpose all our desires, hopes, wishes, onto that being and try to blend with them, become like them. It isn’t a matter of apportioning blame, that is missing the point, but of ‘dispelling the clouds of ignorance’, and learning to see things for what they truly are. Taking personal responsibility for ones mistakes, and moving on.
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    tenpel on May 23, 2012 at 8:50 am
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    Well said. Thank you.
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EKC on May 23, 2012 at 8:03 am
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I tend to see Tsongkhapa as my Guru, a fine example even if no longer around to have a conversation with, and my practice as within the Tibetan Gelug on the whole but not committed to any one tradtion – though I am also happy to practice with the Kagyu at Samye Ling.

However, oddly enough, often the best spiritual advice I come across these days is not from Buddhists, and sometimes from people of no religious or spiritual persuausion at all. If you’re looking out for it you can find profound advice almost anywhere – though use your own wisdom to discriminate.

I suspect for many Westerners with Buddhist leanings we’re just here a bit too soon, Western Buddhism hasn’t found its ways yet, and trying to take on Tibetan, Indian, Japanese or whatever forms is hard for us – we simply don’t know what we can put aside, what has to be kept, what is cultural and what is necessarliy Buddhist.

I often think discussions here get far too deeply into preserving traditions, especially in Tantra and Guru devotion, and away from forging Western paths people can understand and cope with – though understand this may provoke controversy!
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  tenpel on May 23, 2012 at 10:43 pm
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  I think for most Westerners the Sutra path is by far easier to understand than the Tantra path, hence the emphasize on Tantra in the West by so many Tibetan teachers I would really like to question. That Guru devotion is one of the most difficult issue of Tantra can be also inferred from the fact that in the Ngöndro practices it comes after all the other practices. That the so called “Guru devotion”—in the sense of seeing the emptiness of the deity, guru and oneself as the same and the other forms of it—is extremely profound is a highly neglected issue too. (Tsongkhpa only emphasized the Tantric Guru relationship for the Tibetan monks of his time in the monasteries, it wasn’t meant for beginnners.) So the confusion so many Westerners seem to experience might also come due to that us were given practices we can often not relate to or make them useful for us. In that sense being more aware of the own capacities, intuition and background could be a useful solution.
  
  I think highly qualified Lamas can well distinguish between cultural Buddhism and what is essential, and in a way personally I prefer to listen to them instead of believing too much my own way of thinking. I am rather orthodox because I cannot trust my own way of thinking too much. However, this does not mean to allow others to overpower the own inner voice or wisdom but to be open to learn from the wise while at the same time reflecting carefully what is useful of what they said for the own practice. This issue of cultural Buddhism and what the essence of Buddhism is is not that easy …
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EKC on May 23, 2012 at 1:47 pm
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I disagree with an attitude that the NKT causes no harm, we brought it all on ourselves. There are many in the organisation who don’t intend harm, yet still perpetuate it, and there are the greater harms like the sudden closing of residential centres and the sexual abuses of Elliott and Wass to consider too. One thing NKT does is gradually attune its members into more and more harmful actions, so that eventually they become AD or EPC and unquestioningly do things that are harmful like evict people or bully money and unpaid work out of them.

While there’s little point resenting these harms for years and years post-NKT, it is useful to remember them and to warn others thinking of going there, as well as to support those thinking of leaving.

As to how much Kelsang Gyatso knows, it’s hard to say as so few of us ever met him to talk to. Personally I think a lot of harm comes from those balding late middle aged and older men who are always in and out of the offices at Manjushri centre, most of whom were part of the original priory group. I find them a scary bunch of people who clearly demonstrate they feel they are way above the average NKT practitioner – for example making a separate row of chairs for themselves at the back of the temple when the go to pujas, away from the common people.
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  tenpel on May 23, 2012 at 2:48 pm
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  I agree. (Which for me is not in contradiction to have also agrred to anonymous about the main substantial cause of the suffering, one’s own naivety.)
  
  I disagree with the defenders of Kelsang Gyatso or those who excuse him as maybe not knowing what is going on. I think he is a power person. I would like to encourage everybody to watch the BBC video An Unholy Row and to read David Kay’s great chapter of the power struggle at Manjushri Institute* and then to ask oneself: what drives a person who once was just one of two guest teachers — teaching the General Buddhism programme but not the more challenging 12-year Geshe Study Programme — at the Centre of another Lama (Lama Thubten Yeshe) to finally turn it into his own centre, rejecting to go when he was asked to go and finally being able to remove all teachers equal or higher than him and to make people utter dependent on himself, his books, his study programmes, his ordination, his centres, his teachers, his followers, and his own presentation of Buddhism … while at the same time disconnecting the own devotees from main stream Buddhism and genuine Buddhist teachers … These actions of establishing oneself as others’ exclusive teacher, included to remove all books not written by him from the great Manjushri library. I think most people underestimate his skills to manipulate others and to make things as he wishes them to go. If one goes deeper into it, for instance by reading David Kay’s great chapter of the power struggle at Manjushri Institute*, and by gaining knowledge how he removes everybody who disobeys + the methods he applies to make others dependent on him, one can find that he is a master of indirect speech which puts others down, and puts himself higher while at the same time he disconnects his followers from the main stream, and makes them dependent on himself. Of course the naivety and blind devotion and power trips of his Western followers play also a great part in it, but naivety and blind devotion exist in other centres too but in healthy communities genuine Tibetan Buddhist teachers haven’t (ab)used Westerners’ naivety and blind devotion to make the faithful ones utter dependent on themselves.
  
  * Don’t ask me how and why, but David Kay’s research »TIBETAN AND ZEN BUDDHISM IN BRITAIN Transplantation, development and adaptation« is available as a PDF: http://elibrary.ibc.ac.th/files/private/Tibetan%20and%20Zen%20Buddhism%20in%20Britain%20Transplantation,%20Development%20and%20Adaptation.pdf I found it via Google Scholar.
  - 28
    
    EKC on May 23, 2012 at 6:21 pm
    Reply
    
    I bow to your deeper knowledge, Tenzin 🙂
    
    But I don’t think the priory group is or was a bunch of innocents, they know how to manipulate and they do. Possibly with KG’s knowledge; likely, from what you say. Maybe they have learned from “the best”. And when he dies the priory group and those it trains up will be easily capable of continuing the manipulation without him.
    
    (Very surprised Kaye’s book is available online as it costs a fortune to buy; well found!)
    - 29
      
      tenpel on May 23, 2012 at 8:44 pm
      Reply
      
      Actual, maybe this is no knowledge, its my understanding based on inference of certain facts and using common sense. It could be also wrong.
      
      Do you know what happened to Jim Belither? He was the NKT secretary for years. I heard he was removed from position by Geshe-la because he didn’t follow an instruction he gave to him. It could be useful to have a list of once powerful NKT persons who have been removed from power and position by Geshe-la and why they have been removed. Such a list will indicate more clearly what I said about Geshe-las own powertrip. Of course the priory group was not innocent either 😉 by pushing the power of Geshe-la they pushed their own power and positions …
      - 30
        
        fleadle on January 26, 2013 at 11:27 pm
        Reply
        
        If you are still interested I can’t say how I know but I know for a fact Kelsang Gyatso knows it all, he is the puppet master, a very angry,manipulative person. I have it on very good authority.
        
        31
        
        tenpel on January 26, 2013 at 11:59 pm
        Reply
        
        This is what I assume, and which doesn’t contradict the knowledge and experiences I have.
        
        At the moment I am not so sure if I want to hear those stories about his manipulations and anger. It’s clear for me that he is not a person one should trust. Maybe if someone else finds these information useful to get clarity, then if being asked it would be good to give them with a good motivation.
        
        However, I would be interested to know what happened to Belither, what happened to Björn Clausen, why did they lose their position and were removed? What happened with Gen-la Losang?
        
        A list of NKT power figures with the reasons why the were removed would be excellent. It tells its own story without having to write about KG’s character.
        
        32
        
        fleadle on January 27, 2013 at 9:42 am
        
        I have found many leave NKT with the idea KG is innocent and it’s everyone else. I may self found it hard to let go of the idea he was faultless,but in reality this is unfair on all his students,he has to take responsibility for the issues in his tradition,he is responsible for his disciples care. I have no idea what happened to all these head figures I just know KG is aware of everything in NKT,he is made aware. Retiring means he can still be involved but pretend he isn’t very clever. And how many final teachings is he going to give?
        
        33
        
        tenpel on January 27, 2013 at 11:44 am
        
        I agree.
        
        34
        
        Lineageholder on January 27, 2013 at 1:48 pm
        
        I feel that I need to say something because I’m sad to read these comments – how does the expression of such negativity really help anybody? Fleadle, I know you feel hurt and angry, but can’t you see that the reason why you have any knowledge of Dharma is because of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? At least that’s got to be a good thing? I know we all have freedom of expression but even if you do feel negatively about Geshe Kelsang it’s really better to try and keep it to yourself, as poison expressed is even greater poison as it destroys other people’s faith. It also hurts you. Lama Zopa said that it’s important to maintain a relationship with a Guru, even if you have left. He said ” Causing heresy and anger and giving up the virtuous friend is much worse than killing and waging wars. This is because the object is very powerful. One’s guru is the most powerful among all powerful objects, such as buddhas.” Developing a negative view towards the Guru and expressing it creates many obstacles in this and future lives.
        
        What really saddens me about the New Kadampa Survivors is that they are just all feeding off each other’s negativity and nobody can propose an alternative view. The poison that they are generating is penetrating deep into their hearts, and there’s no cure, but they view it as some kind of beneficial group therapy. I pray that they will be able to let go and just get on with their Buddhist practice, or whatever they decide to do.
        
        I know you will accuse me of being an NKT apologist and just write my view off but I do feel genuinely sad about the suffering that you’re experiencing and for that reason there’s no sense in making it worse – just find a Buddhist tradition that suits you and do your best to practice. May all suffering quickly cease.
        
        35
        
        tenpel on January 27, 2013 at 1:59 pm
        
        just to give you a mirror:
        
        Lineageholder, I know you feel hurt and angry, but can’t you see that the reason why you have any knowledge of Dharma is because of the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism? At least that’s got to be a good thing? I know we all have freedom of expression but even if you do feel negatively about the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism it’s really better to try and keep it to yourself, as poison expressed is even greater poison as it destroys other people’s faith [– see eg your websites and blogs].
        
        It also hurts you. Lama Zopa said that it’s important to maintain a relationship with a Guru, even if [your guru has] left [Kelsang Gyatso* and Kelsang Samten received also teachings by the Dalai Lama]. He said ” Causing heresy and anger and giving up the virtuous friend is much worse than killing and waging wars. This is because the object is very powerful. One’s guru [the Dalai Lama is one of Geshe-las gurus] is the most powerful among all powerful objects, such as buddhas.” Developing a negative view towards the Guru and expressing it creates many obstacles in this and future lives.
        
        What really saddens me about the New Kadampa Tradition that they are just all feeding off each other’s negativity and nobody can propose an alternative view. The poison that they are generating is penetrating deep into their hearts, and there’s no cure, but they view it as some kind of beneficial group therapy. I pray that they will be able to let go and just get on with their Buddhist practice, or whatever they decide to do.
        
        I know you will accuse me of being an NKT detractor [“disgruntled ex-member”] and just write my view off but I do feel genuinely sad about the suffering that you’re experiencing and for that reason there’s no sense in making it worse – just find a Buddhist tradition that [changes your mind to the better] and do your best to practice. May all suffering quickly cease.
        
        * Kelsang Gyatso was also at the Kalachakra teachings of the Dalai Lama. I know it from an eye witness.
        
        36
        
        fleadle on January 27, 2013 at 10:14 pm
        
        Dear LH, I’m not angry that is your assumption, I am sad that so many people have been hurt in the NKT and no one within the organization takes responsibility. I called KG my Guru but I never met him so in fact my reliance was naive at best but that is what NKT encourages,reliance on a stranger who in reality has served himself, he doesn’t really care about his disciples,if he did he would have at least apologise for all the hurt caused in his tradition. Since speaking out I have had several ex NKT thank me because it has helped them feel less alone and others speaking out has helped me too. KG gave me books no guidance and I paid a high price. As long as I am told I am helping others who have been hurt I won’t stop speaking out, I don’t want more to be hurt by the NKT. I’ve seen people in it lose all their inner beauty,their strength,their Joy. He was never my Guru,he lied,he asked for all of me and left me drowning. I am sad so many still suffer but my anger has been replaced by a strong will to warn others. I at last feel I am doing good that’s more than I felt in the NKT.
        
        37
        
        fleadle on January 27, 2013 at 10:23 pm
        
        P.s, I have found a daily practice that gives me Joy thank you.do not worry about my suffering worry about all those still suffering in the NKT they need your prayers I have found peace away from a empire built on pain. What is worse is how it takes a lot of personnel pain and loss to see the truth of the NKT, I hope you see it before you are as badly burnt as me and many others have been. Take care I hope you find happiness.
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  anonymous on May 25, 2012 at 5:25 am
  Reply
  
  Try talking to them sometimes, they are a very humble and kind group of people. All of them have been at the receiving end of Geshe Kelsangs wrath at one time or another, but they still keep faith with their guru and just get on with their practice. Why? Because they received direct communication from their Guru, not second hand, or third hand or fourth hand.
  They come from the old days when you could go and see the Guru when you wanted.
  The ‘dangerous’ ones, to use your terminology, are the young enthusiasts, who abuse without knowing, who follow like sheep, who copy unkind behaviours. Who believe the Path is to do whatever you are told, think what you are told and work work work…….
  - 39
    
    EKC on May 27, 2012 at 8:24 am
    Reply
    
    It’s hard to strike up a conversation with them, they appear to deliberatlely look aloof and avoid contact with people not in the “in” group.
    
    But at least I know where you’re coming from – you still have some NKT sympathies, so you’re bound to clash with others here including myself.
    
    The young enthusiasts do what they’re told because NKT teaches to do that, to conform they have to be gradually intiated into abusing and to overworking themselves and others. If there was a wise leadership in NKT it would be addressing this, and the “Geshe-la says …” edicts would include being gentler on self and others, and running centres with the compassion the Dharma teaches. It’s odd from a distance how people are taught to abuse in the name of the purity of the Dharma.
    
    I lived in a centre where Neil Elliott and his wife lived for several months, and have seen directly how the NKT mighty operate. There was also a younger man there who seemed to be in training to be part of the elite – one of the very few who had met KG several times and clearly expected to do so in the future.
- 40
  
  Fleadle on December 20, 2012 at 9:59 pm
  Reply
  
  I would like to add here that Geshe-la knows most of what goes on, he personally sent a threatening letter to a friend of mine who wrote a meditation book, he never signed the letter but as my friend use to be high up in the NKT he knew that Geshe-la would have sent it just not had the guts to sign it. GKG pulls all the strings, he is a meglomaniac who is more concerned with spreading the NKT than anything else or anyone in it. And as he once said ‘I am the NKT’ so there you go.
41

EKC on May 23, 2012 at 11:53 pm
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I don’t know anything about Jim Belither other than what has filtered through to me from a friend on NKS – very little. These things make me wonder, what happens to someone who has committed so many years to KG/NKT, then been pushed aside? I wonder what happened to Stephen Wass (Samden) too. Where would a person go from that level of involvement to demonisation by NKT? They cant use survivor forums and such as they’d be demonised by ex-NKT too for their prior involvement. Must be HARD for such people.
- 42
  
  tenpel on May 24, 2012 at 10:28 am
  Reply
  
  Well said, there might be only few that ask themselves how Steven, and the others are doing. I would speculate that he suffers either quite a lot or that he might have get so used to the “mental brainwashing” so common within NKT that he has a view about himself and the events that allows him to suffer less.
  - 43
    
    ratikala on May 25, 2012 at 6:42 am
    Reply
    
    dear tenpel ,
    
    you raise an interesting point ……“mental brainwashing” so common within NKT that he has a view about himself and the events that allows him to suffer less.” …….firstly I think I left before the incedent you are discussing so I know nothing about this case in particular , but from what I observed there was a deffinate play on an aspect of the western mind .when I left , despite it being for reasons of personal silent dissagreement with the early prophaganda over the dorje shugden issue , I still did not want to think ill of geshe kelsang it was more comfortable for my mind to think he was inocent of malintent , and left thinking that it was a mistake in the thinking and actions of the western deciples and that geshe kelsang must be inocent , I have not untill now watched the vidio you posted “..an un holy row” a subject I find sickening to return to even now over fifteen years later !
    
    I am left with the felling that there is something in the western mind that wants to be a part of something benificial something basicaly quite inocent at the outset , yet in some involvement plays on subtle levels of the ego bringing about something uggly and in this case potentialy dangerous , I left feeling that this is not buddhism but cultism , a wanting to belong to somthing worth while that had been hi jacked ,
    
    I feel very sad for all involved and do not realy know which thought is worse someone to have left to the reality of dissilusion and hurt , or to have left still under an illusion of some sort ??? I can only hope that in some way each person may find some positive lesson from their involvement .
    
    the simple fact that I am still showing interest in the subject over 15 years later shows that the learning process takes time , however I wish you all well and pray that everyone envolved finds their true purpous and sence of peace .
    - 44
      
      tenpel on May 25, 2012 at 11:01 am
      Reply
      
      thank you radikala for your thoughts.
      
      it is somewhat common that people who’s group leader or group became known of wrong doings (or as being “cultish) still try to see the main figure as something positive. robert jay lifton has reported in his book “Destroying the World to Save It: Aum Shinrikyo, Apocalyptic Violence, and the New Global Terrorism” about shoko ashara that many of his students – though they knew what he did and ordered – experienced in his presence extraordinary states of mind and the couldn’t let go the idea that he must be something special. so even after years and besides the public reports about the wrong doings (ordered killing) of him, many of his students were unwilling to let go the image they had about him. and a survivor of Jonestown 1978 reported that she still considers the life she had in that community as the best part of her whole life.
      
      in a way if one wants really to awake I think one must cut through the illusions–though the ego won’t like this–on the other hand, there is also freedom to live in illusion to make life a bit more comfortable or because one lacks the strength and courage to face the facts/reality. personally I would not judge this too much. everybody must see for him/herself what is best, according to the present situation and life …
      
      A friend told me that some people who left NKT were able to meet later a high Rinpoche who was informed that some ex-NKT come to his teachings. This Rinpoche addressed the problem very skilfully, and in a compassionate manner. He explained that we must be prepared that our teachers have gone mad, mentally ill, and that there are some cases were teacher got mentally ill. He gave some examples, and the ex-NKT people knew that he referred here too to Geshe-la, but the way how he did it induced a healing process, and some of them started to weep …
- 45
  
  anonymous on May 25, 2012 at 5:16 am
  Reply
  
  Very very hard, it destroyed my life in one way, and in another, it’s Oh shit. How did I get involved in that! Sometimes I can laugh at myself, and others I’m still angry, as I said in an earlier posting. But for years it hurt. I don’t know the answer, everything you say tenpel is correct. I KNOW.
  It’s only now, years afterwards, that I can write without fear, and guilt, well, almost!! If you had asked me about this even a year ago I would have tightened up and become very very defensive.
  But, in a way there is light at the end of the tunnel. If I could live through THAT, then I am strong. It didn’t destroy me. In a way, thanks to all that suffering, I am a stronger person. Still have a long way to go. but it does feel good to finally be able to talk about it, albeit in generalities.
  Thanks everyone for listening x
  - 46
    
    tenpel on May 25, 2012 at 10:43 am
    Reply
    
    Thank you anonymous.
    I don’t know what to say … it is still so close to you and for me it is far away.
    
    From my own experience I can reassure you that indeed–if it does not break your heart, and leaves you in “a state of confusion”, as it did for some–it makes you stronger, and is finally of tremendous help. Geshe-la started as a honest spiritual seeker, but as a famous Geshe in India said: “he had gone onto a mistaken path”. It could happen with us, with me, too. Its a great teaching what we should try to be aware of and to avoid.
    
    No, it didn’t destroy you, but it is hard. Usually I say when one was 4 years in NKT one needs 4 years to recover, if one was 12 years in NKT … don’t expect too much in the healing process, it goes step by step, gradually. However, at the end of tunnel is light, much light, non-deceptive light.
    
    Wishing you all the best, tenpel
47

author on May 24, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Reply

Belither was demoted for conduct unbecoming after a second affair, first one with A centre residents wife, second a younger student-a couple of decades in between-so he obvioudly learned his lesson!
- 48
  
  anonymous on June 8, 2012 at 10:09 pm
  Reply
  
  Actually not true. We merely impose our sense of morals onto a situation and then call it ‘truth’, then talk about it as if we do know.
  He was replaced because his work was suffering. As in any organization. If an important manager begins to become less efficient – for personal or other reasons – then it’s time for them to go.
  - 49
    
    author on June 9, 2012 at 8:30 am
    Reply
    
    Ah yes, the moral relativism of the NKT-‘truth’ depends on your perceptions; there is no objective truth. Its the same reasoning that is used to support DS worship “If I see it as Buddha, I get the blessings of Buddha” Super ego reigns supreme because of the false belief that, whereas all phenomenal appearances are determined by mind, mind itself as something more than just a mental label on mere clarity and knowing. Look up ‘solipsism’, not to be confused with Madhyamika Buddhism which the NKT claim to teach
    
    One can invent all the professional reasons one wants (I believe some who were addicted to gay porn while ‘ordained’ were ‘asked to step down’ [booted out] because of ‘not conforming with Kadampa rule 3’71 etc etc) Face it, Blitherer has a history of screwing up other peoples lives with his wandering vajra and it happened again, entirely coincidentally of course (!) just around the time he got the push. if you choose to believe the official propaganda thats your bag-those on the world of free thinkers make your minds up for yourselves
  - 50
    
    author on June 9, 2012 at 2:37 pm
    Reply
    
    If a tree falls over in the forest, does it make a sound?
    
    NKT educated answer, no because nobody perceives it
    
    Actual reality, yes, it makes a sound but nobody hears
51

author on May 25, 2012 at 6:03 pm
Reply

Its a shame that wnen people go along to ANY group in the West nowadays, they are greeted by ‘Buddnists’ who are also part of a corporate entity ‘Our community’. Before they know it, they have bought into this corporate mentality, promoting their group as the one with the highest teaching or the purest lineage, or standing outside other groups meetings attacking the actions of bodhisattvas (totally non-politcally of course!)

It is because of this lack of distinguishing between dharma and community in the beginning that we find recovery so hard at the end. Perhaps the trick is to take what was Dharma and leave the business propaganda behind. Oh for the days when Westerners think of themselves as Buddhists instead of members of this community or that one-we are all just Buddhists!
52

author on May 26, 2012 at 8:28 am
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“This Rinpoche addressed the problem very skilfully, and in a compassionate manner. He explained that we must be prepared that our teachers have gone mad, mentally ill, and that there are some cases were teacher got mentally ill. He gave some examples, and the ex-NKT people knew that he referred here too to Geshe-la, but the way how he did it induced a healing process, and some of them started to weep”

This BTW, is what is said to have happened to Pabongka. There is little doubt that he was an advanced bodhisattva. However, at such a high level, if there is even the tiniest opportunity for ego to re-assert itself, it can clearly do so with a vengeance.

This is just like the story of Jesus in the wilderness, where he is on the verge of great realisation and the devil appears to him to offer him great power “If you will just bow down to me”. Clearly, where JC declined, Pabongka and KG signed on the dotted line-the rest is history
- 53
  
  anonymous on May 27, 2012 at 4:29 am
  Reply
  
  Interesting point, I’d need to really think about that, but it does ring bells with me. I’ve always believed that if a person lives in ‘splendid isolation’ they become strange and out of touch with those they are purporting to help. The more power, the more weird the behaviors.
  It could also be that he is very tired and very old, somewhere between 77 and 82 I believe, and despite saying he was going to retire, and indeed publicly retiring, he holds onto the daily running higher and tighter, and firings appear to be more random.
  It saddens me.
54

EKC on May 27, 2012 at 8:17 am
Reply

Tenpel wrote: ” I remember one person being expelled from NKS later wrote in an email to me, that difficulties which came up were also due to his own behaviour, and it would be unrealistic to expect too much balanced replies from people who just came out of a “cult”.”

Yes, I’ve had similar thoughts, though I’m not sure it makes me feel better about the group. But if, as Carol says, it has improved, then wonderful. I don’t feel at this time that it would be useful for me or others if I went back, but who knows at some point it might be. Closer moderation of the forum is certainly a good idea. It’s awful to come out of the cult then join the support group and feel like you get kicked again while already struggling.
55

EKC on May 27, 2012 at 8:33 am
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Tenpel wrote: “and a survivor of Jonestown 1978 reported that she still considers the life she had in that community as the best part of her whole life. ”

Yes, I can identify with that. It was often pleasant being under the NKT illusion, amazing exeriences were had in puja and many teachings received seemed truly inspired. And leaving is hard. I tend to think if my centre hadn’t been closed so abruptly I’d still be there, still in the dream, as someone on another thread expressed it.

I question at times whether leaving was the right thing, then I’m reminded of things like the Shugden/dolgyal controversy and the behaviour of many of the teachers and all the other major and minor abuses in NKT.

Undeniably there’s a feelgood factor that keeps people there, and makes leaving confusing.
56

Sheila on May 29, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Reply

I think it’s sad that “guru devotion” has been misunderstood to mean “self-sacrifice to a foreign man,” and that problems with a specific teacher, who happens to be foreign and who happens to have demanded an excess of self-sacrifice, are then misunderstood as evidence that guru devotion is something bad.

The Buddhist exercise of “seeing” one thing as another (seeing all beings as your mother, seeing the teacher as the Buddha) is simply a way of focusing our mind on various important points raised in the sutras and teachings. Tantra is not in opposition to sutra – in a great sense it’s just a set of exercises based on the teachings. It doesn’t mean everyone has to do the exercises, but it also doesn’t mean doing the exercises is somehow a path going in a different direction.

The point is not to falsely label an ant as your mother, nor to falsely label a teacher as “the Buddha.” In the ant case, the point is to increase your likelihood of treating the ant with compassion. If you were raised a critter-lover, you may not need such an exercise; but if you were raised to squash things without giving it a second thought, then seeing the ant as “Mom” will give you a second thought.

As far as visualizing a teacher as the Buddha, I think what’s often overlooked is that this exercise is not always to give the human a “Buddha shape,” but to give the Buddha a “human shape.” We humans are very emotional, physical beings, and are very deeply affected by being in the physical presence of someone else. If we read the Buddha’s teachings out of a sutra, it’s beautiful and powerful, no doubt; but when our teacher is reading those same teachings out of the sutra, and we imagine that it is the Buddha himself sitting there reading the teachings, it can have an effect on our mind. Generally that effect would be to deepen our emotions (and therefore memory!) as to what we are hearing–in Christian terms, we might say it “brings us closer to the Buddha.” This isn’t for the teacher’s benefit, but for ours.

If as the result of seeing a teacher as the Buddha we end up treating the teacher with great respect, or if our human love for one another deepens somehow as a result of this practice, then that’s also good side-benefit, but if you examine the tantra visualizations closely, the point is to train your mind on a specific point, and has nothing to do with the individual relationship between two human beings.

Another example that guru visualization is not about our individual relationship, nor about subservience to one, specific individual, is the fact that when you take that same teaching from visiting teachers, you also visualize him or her as the Buddha. Again, the exercise is for our own benefit, not that teacher’s (except in the sense that hopefully we are improving our chances of helping all beings).

I think that because “sutra” and “tantra” are two Sanskrit terms we tend to mistake them for two truly separate paths.

A very simple example would be that the statement “all beings have been your mother” is sutra, and the instruction, “see all beings as your mother” is tantra.

Even we feel most comfortable considering ourselves to be on a sutric path, it would be good if we dropped some of our fear of the terms “tantra” and “guru devotion,” and examined them more closely to see what they are and aren’t.
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  EKC on May 29, 2012 at 7:05 pm
  Reply
  
  I’m not sure the line is that clear betwen treating living beings as though they were your mother or seeing them as though they were. I realise that’s a bit different from what you said, just a thought.
  
  Christians have the two approaches: to ask, what would Jesus do (ie to try to be Jesus) … and to treat others as if they were Jesus. It almost seems that to do both at the same time would be confusing but in fact I suspect it’s quite beautiful.
  
  Sutra and tantra teachings have been combined by some of the more recent great teachers, but for a long time they were very separate, so I suspect both are valid approaches. We can see in NKT where the combining goes wrong, with people who have little experience in sutra taking tantric initiations too soon – so the combination approach is not without its own specific dangers. It’s almost like you can mess about a bit with sutra, but there’s no room for messing with tantra, the dangers are too close and too great.
- 58
  
  tenpel on May 29, 2012 at 8:27 pm
  Reply
  
  If one understands Tantra and Guru Devotion properly there is no fear. The point is to understand them properly so that those being capable and inclined to practice Tantra and Guru Devotion have benefit and not harm. Being harmed can happen and this harm is mainly based on misunderstandings and a lack of knowledge about these (profound) practices.
59

Sheila on May 29, 2012 at 10:39 pm
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EKC, I like where your thought leads, maybe something like:

Sutra: All beings have been your mother.

Tantra: See all beings as your mother.

Me: Believing the validity of the sutra, and having trained according to the tantra, I (try to increasingly) treat all beings as kindly as if they were my own mother.
60

author on May 30, 2012 at 7:52 am
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“Sutra: All beings have been your mother.

Tantra: See all beings as your mother”

No, tantra does not teach to regard all beings as mother, sutra yes, tantra no.
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  EKC on May 30, 2012 at 10:40 am
  Reply
  
  Maybe not directly, but Sheila’s idea follows the tantric idea of imputing something other than what we ordinarily see for a beneficial purpose. It may not be what is directly taught, but it follows the same overall idea. I can see where she’s coming from and it’s useful.
62

author on May 30, 2012 at 2:03 pm
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Im sorry, but Buddhist tantra does not teach what you both suggest, either directly or inidrectly. Lets not beat about the bush: the Buddha taught the tantras in a specific way> We are not qualified to change it because it seems ‘useful’. Otherwise we are ‘preaching false dharma’
63

author on May 30, 2012 at 2:12 pm
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Asanga (circa 300 AD) delineated 18 major vows and forty-six minor vows.These Bodhisattva vows are still used in all four major traditions of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism and among the eighteen major vows (as actions to be abandoned) the fourth is as follows:

Abandoning the Mahayana by saying that Mahayana texts are not the words of Buddha or TEACHING WHAT APPEARS TO BE DHARMA BUT IS NOT
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  tenpel on May 30, 2012 at 9:07 pm
  Reply
  
  Alex Berzin explains this as follows:
  
  (4) Discarding the Mahayana teachings and propounding made-up ones
  
  This means to reject the correct teachings about some topic concerning bodhisattvas, such as their ethical behavior, and to make up in their stead a plausible yet misleading instruction on the same subject, claim it to be authentic, and then teach it to others in order to gain their following. An example of this downfall is when teachers who are eager not to scare away prospective students condone liberal moral behavior and explain that any type of action is acceptable so long as it does not harm others. We need not be a teacher to commit this downfall. We can commit it even in casual conversation with others.
  
  http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/practice_material/vows/bodhisattva/root_bodhisattva_pledges.html
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author on May 30, 2012 at 3:34 pm
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As you yourself said immediately before your last comments “there’s no room for messing with tantra, the dangers are too close and too great.”
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  EKC on May 30, 2012 at 9:10 pm
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  No room for messing with what might be dangerous, I agree, but arguing whether a practice is sutra or tantra if you’re going to be doing it anyway is not likely to be!
  
  I think you and I will have to agree to differ on this one, as you know I’m for modernising the Dharma for the West and I know you’re for keeping everything exactly as it is.
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Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 2:08 am
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Tantric paths teach the implicit necessity of compassion and ethics – it doesn’t matter which particular visualization you use to achieve more compassionate habits. To say tantra “doesn’t teach to see beings as your mother” would be like suggesting a modern football drill is somehow not related to football, by virtue of the fact that the drill itself wasn’t composed during the era when football was invented.
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  tenpel on May 31, 2012 at 8:52 am
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  Mhm. Tantra teaches to see yourself as a deity and your environment as the mandala of the deity. One purifies ordinary appearance and grasping to it. Still the very basis of tantra is compassion and Bodhichitta, renunciation and emptiness. Tantra rather stresses to see beings as a deity than as your mother. The practice of Tantra is another reality. However, to see beings as your mother is there implicit or even explicit too.
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Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 4:28 am
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Here’s an example from Lama Zopa Rinpoche’s teachings from a Mahamudra retreat, “Recitations from the combined Jorchö and Lama Chöpa Puja.” It’s clear that the instructions to see all beings as your mother (listed in his teachings here by name, i.e. hell beings, preta beings, sura beings, animals, etc.), are an integral part of this highest yoga tantra instruction and visualization:

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=485&chid=900

Note: this is an unedited transcript.
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author on May 31, 2012 at 7:11 am
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Ah yes, like Kelsang Gyatso, Sangharakshita, Shoko Asahara, and Daisaku Ikeda, all of whom propound such ‘modernist’ sentiments.

Actually, Im all for modernising. However, I feel that we need to thoroughly understand and realise the practices that are tried and tested for centuries first. Sitting around theorising on what might work when we have little experience ourselves is the road that leads to destruction of the Dharma, not its modernisation.
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author on May 31, 2012 at 7:17 am
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“False noses, bought children, borrowed jewellery, stolen wealth and knowledge that does not come from our spiritual masters.
These exist, but are not respected by others”
Sakya Pandita
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author on May 31, 2012 at 7:58 am
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“There is no one in this world who is more skilled in the Dharma than the Conqueror.
No other has such insight, knowing everything without exception and knowing supreme thusness the way it is.
Thus one should not distort the discourses presented by the Sage himself
Since this would destroy the Sage’s mode of teaching and, furthermore, cause harm to the sacred Dharma”
Maireya-Gyu Lama
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  EKC on May 31, 2012 at 10:30 am
  Reply
  
  I think this is one of those arguments where those on either side are not going to be persuaded otherwise. I believe in a modern Western dharma for modern Western people, and that these are exciting times in Western Dharma because what we do now will have a huge effect on how Western Dharma is presented to future generations. It may well be that it separates into two “churches” – those who modernise a lot and those who prefer to take on tradtional Eastern views and little else.
  
  Seems pretty irreconcilable, but I would hope we can also set a trend for both to be able to happen side by side without animosity, to give more choice to a Western audience.
  
  Funny, I studied a little philosophy as part of my current higher education course, and there’s a similar problem between moral traditionalists who believe that something being a tradition authenticates it and nothing more is needed, and moral rationalists who want to check everything out and see if it really works or ever really did, and go on from there. This is basic to understanding philosophy, and I suspect may be basic to understanding missionary religion and religion in diaspora.
  
  There are already several quite different kinds of Dharma adapted for the countries it has been taken to, and there’s no reason why there shouldn’t be more. The difficulty is preventing or reducing sectarian battles – we already have Mahayanists in the West being taught they are superior to Therevadans, and throwing around the belittling title “Hinayanist”. It doesn’t have to be like that, we all want much the same thing in the end, just may need quite different approaches to get there.
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    tenpel on May 31, 2012 at 11:05 am
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    While I agree that there shouldn’t be sectarian battles and that the belittling of any teaching (or “vehicle”) of the Buddha (or another religion) is wrong, I think, before one wants to “modernize” Buddhism one should have certain realizations and a profound understanding – at least a direct realization of emptiness – otherwise one might throw out the baby with the bathing water. These distinctions between modernist and traditionalist are quite tempting but could easily mislead oneself and others. For instance, is it “modern” to claim that there are no rebirths and that Karma does not exist? It’s not, it is called a wrong view in Buddhism, and there is enough evidence that the Buddha has taught rebirth and karma, and that it is indeed “a wrong view”. Now, a “modern Buddhist” might be tempted to reject those teachings as “traditional” and “Asian”. This then becomes a good means to destroy the teachings of the Buddha. At another thread I replied already to the same basic idea of you: https://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/ethics-and-safety/#comment-2164
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author on May 31, 2012 at 11:06 am
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Thank you Sheila for your interpretation of LZRs teaching, though I have been unable to find any part where LZR specifically identifies the idea of seeing all beings as mother as originating in the tantras: perhaps you can provide a specific quote from the transcript where He says that the teaching of seeing all beings as mother is a teaching from the tantras? Please do.

However, while seeing all beings as mother may well be an integral part of ones motivation for tantric practice, it, in itself cannot possibly be deemed a’ tantric’ practice. Why?

Because the reason we see all beings as mother is to develop the wish to free them from samsara, wherein they suffer unbearably due to delusion and karma. On the other hand, the tantras, in particular HYT, start with the recognition of the fundamental purity of all phenomena, wherein we recognize all beings as Buddhas. In other words, they are considered to be already liberated from samsara and completely beyond delusion and karma. To consider all beings to be ordinary and subject to delusion and karma directly contradicts this fundamental teaching of HYT

Of course, we should practice tantra with the motivational recognition of beings as mother as a foundation while during meditation and post meditation maintaining the awareness of their divinity. But this is the combined practice of sutra and tantra and not tantra alone.

This is not a subtle point. It is clear from the descriptions of the two types of Mahayana practice, delineated as ‘causal’ and ‘resultant’, that, while our motive, born of our meditation on the sutras, may well be to free all mother sentient beings from samsara, the tantras per se do not teach that we should hold such a view when engaged in meditation on the tantras. The assertion that tantra specifically teaches us to see all beings as mother is is therefore wrong. Such a teaching is found in the sutras and is referred to in the tantras as a sutra practice that should form the basis of our initial motivation.
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  Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 7:36 pm
  Reply
  
  But tantra is not, and was never meant to be, a replacement for sutras; rather, a way of practicing towards goals that are presented in the sutras.
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  Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 7:42 pm
  Reply
  
  Also, tantra itself is a methodology, or a way of practicing, and not limited to mean “tantric texts.”
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  Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 7:45 pm
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  Sorry for the triple-header; my point in giving the example “seeing all beings as our mother” was the verb, “seeing.” Meaning that a sutra may state that it’s beneficial to think of all beings as our mother, and then a tantric practice based on that sutric statement would have us actually go through an exercise visualizing all beings as our mother. The point was that tantric visualization is a way to put sutric advice into practice.
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  Sheila on June 1, 2012 at 2:37 am
  Reply
  
  ” In other words, they are considered to be already liberated from samsara and completely beyond delusion and karma. To consider all beings to be ordinary and subject to delusion and karma directly contradicts this fundamental teaching of HYT”
  
  By that analysis, there would be no point in anyone practising HYT whatsoever, if all beings are already liberated. But tantric practice is in fact encouraged, which means that even by tantric standards, there remain some individuals in need of liberation, including ourselves. If we ourselves are unliberated, it’s reasonable to assume other beings remain unliberated and are in need of our compassion, prayers, and practices.
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    author on June 2, 2012 at 3:42 pm
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    Such a response demonstrates an inability to differentiate between motive and method and strikes me as nothing more than self justificatory sophistry
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EKC on May 31, 2012 at 12:30 pm
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Tenzin, your analogy of risking throwing the baby out with the bath water is a good one, thank you.

I don’t know how we get the correct balance, but I do know that for myself and some others trying to absolutely follow Tibetan traditions doesn’t work, it means there are parts of what our Tibetan teachers tell us that makes us uneasy.

So I guess modern times are times of experimentation in Western Buddhism that have to happen, to find out which parts are the baby and which parts are the bath water – and if other religions are anything to go by, lots of people will have lots of different ideas about that.

Arguing the points is difficult because a traditionalist goes back to texts that say basically, stick with tradition, whereas someone who believes changes are necessary won’t be convinced by that. Myself, I fear that at some level some Tibetan teachers are afraid of losing control of the Dharma, or that if new ways are found it will invalidate the traditional ways they have given their lives to. Others believe that if it is in the texts it must be correct.

Experimentation will sometimes not work, but I believe it has to be done. author listed a number of experimental Western Buddhist leaders whose ideas haven’t yet led to anything widely acceptable, and that’s all part of the process. The other side of that is some previously very pure Tibetan Lamas have corrupted badly coming West – another support that East and West may need different approaches.

I understand this is very very hard for people who have a deep respect for the Tibetan ways, and who fear that people will get hurt by not following them. I fear people also get hurt by trying to follow them, when it doesn’t work out.

On the other thread I think you or someone else posted about a Lama who said Western Dharma would take 400 years to come together, and the Dalai Lama has been quoted as saying, wait 200 years. The thing is a new shape will not happen unless people try new things. The old ways will still be there for those who want them, also valid.
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  tenpel on June 3, 2012 at 10:58 pm
  Reply
  
  ——
  a corrected comment (there were too many spelling and grammar errors…)
  ——
  
  Dear EKC,
  thank you for your reply. (I decided now to read it and to reply not next week but today since I replied also quickly to Carol, and I felt it is unfair to reply to your older comment only next week.)
  
  I think in general, it is very easy in a way. The Buddha said we should examine and only accept what we find to be correct and useful. From pov of Dharma: of major importance is to work on the own mind to make it calmer, more tamed, settled, relaxed … in that sense it makes a lot of sense to “experiment” with the teachings to get a taste of them. So if then a certain teaching works for you, excellent, mind training (lojong) tells then stick to it, work with it. So the idea of “experimentation in Western Buddhism” I would bend to “experimentation with the Dharma”. It doesn’t matter if the outcome is Western Buddhism, the outcome of the experiments should be to have a more balanced, kinder, calmer mind. If tantra doesn’t work for some or guru devotion doesn’t work: no problem, one just doesn’t practice it. Maybe it works better later. What I would find risky is then to establish a “Dharma” where one claims that Guru devotion or tantra is nonsense and senseless, Westerners shouldn’t practice it. This would be wrong, why? Because it works for certain individuals and if understood and practised correctly it are both great means!
  
  For instance while tantra is (seen) as authentic, I wouldn’t throw it out. However, parts of rituals could be thought of to be changed. How about tormas? The Indian siddhas didn’t make tormas like the tibetans do, its a Tibetan invention, or a Tibetan way of doing things. However, when I want to change that I think I should have also a good reason …
  
  The point is to change things best is to understand them beforehand, and for this a lot of study and meditational experience is required. I think the categories of “traditionalist” and “modernist” cover up the fact, that the so called modernist might just lack proper knowledge and might be lazy to digg deeply into the subject matters, so out of a lack of knowledge and lazyness they throw out things which might be very useful. The NKT think they have “modernized” the ordination and argued with me that I would be a legalist or traditionalist because I said that it was wrong what they did, and I gave also reasons and scriptural reference why it is wrong how they argue … Their “modern” approach lacks understanding, their approach to “Western ordination” is superficial, partially misleading, lacks profundity, and they miss the point about ordination. (I discussed this with them here on the blog.) Besides the arguments or reasons also reality has proven that many NKT ordained have quite a lot of problems due to this “modern approach” because they lack the knowledge and rituals to uphold the ordination properly (!) But you can only understand this if you really studied at least some basics about ordination, if you have experience in being an ordained within NKT and outside of NKT, and what the Buddha said about it. At one point I had to stop to discuss with them because it is foolish to discuss with a person who is proud of his 4th class mathematics knowledge and who objects the higher mathematics stuff because he has no knowledge, no idea, no appreciation for higher mathematics, and also no experience of its value, + this child is carried away by childish pride. What to do?
  
  As an example of a modern approach to Buddhism I linked you J.Garfield below. See what he does: he argues with good reasons and he has enough knowledge about Buddhism and philosophy in general.
  
  Your write:
  “Arguing the points is difficult because a traditionalist goes back to texts that say basically, stick with tradition, whereas someone who believes changes are necessary won’t be convinced by that.”
  
  No the Buddhist approach is to rely on authentic scriptures, reasons (and common sense). Who stubbornly clings to words might be called a stubborn Buddhist. If you want to change something it were good to have reasons for that, which means you can see that for quite sure/likely the outcome will be good and not of harm. Good reasons should be the basis for actions, including changes. If you are convinced and if you have good reasoning that a certain action is good, just do it. It doesn’t matter if a teacher “fears control over Dharma” maybe he does, maybe not, what is important is what is beneficial for your own mind training! Adopt what is beneficial, leave aside what is not at the moment (maybe it is useful later, so don’t throw it away either—as long as it is Dharma).
  
  Personally I feel and think that the Tibetan society have by far produced more spiritual advanced beings than any other society. I was able to meet so many extraordinary beings, I cannot see this so much among Westerners (not to such an extend) what gives me a natural respect of how they do things. That there is also corruption does not undermine the general impressing presence of so many extra ordinary teachers. So I prefer to learn from them, but this doesn’t mean that I have to copy their culture or so or to become a stupid sheep running after them, I have to make up my own mind, and my own experiences. I don’t worry about Western Buddhism or modernizing things, I worry to work on my mind and to see what methods (and teachers) help me here. Experimenting with the Dharma in my mind. This is were the focus should go, I think.
  
  “I understand this is very very hard for people who have a deep respect for the Tibetan ways, and who fear that people will get hurt by not following them. I fear people also get hurt by trying to follow them, when it doesn’t work out.”
  
  I don’t see it that way. I look what helps my mind and I am happy if others have methods to work on their mind. For me there is no fear that people should follow Tibetan lamas. People should follow what really helps them.
  
  “On the other thread I think you or someone else posted about a Lama who said Western Dharma would take 400 years to come together, and the Dalai Lama has been quoted as saying, wait 200 years. The thing is a new shape will not happen unless people try new things. The old ways will still be there for those who want them, also valid.”
  
  I think this is a theoretical distinction. People have to try what helps them to tame their mind. And if they stick to the methods that help them this will be good for themselves and for others. Its not about old or new ways, I think, its about tasting Buddhas teachings (or other methods / religions) to see what is useful for the mind, and what works in the long run.
  - 83
    
    tenpel on June 3, 2012 at 11:38 pm
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    to give an brief example how the “Modern” approach of NKT’s ordination way is misleading and harming people:
    
    Because the Vinaya is not taught in NKT (Kelsang Gyatso argues mainly that would be “only” “Hinayana”, while they would follow the “Mahayana” and that they had a Mahayana ordination deriving from the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and Geshe Potowa – which is incorrect in many ways), NKT ordainees do not know that the Buddha gave permission to cease ordination by giving back the vows. For this one must explain to a person (“of sound mind”) who understands what one is saying and the meaning of what is said, that one ceases the ordination and wishes to give back the vows. If done so, one has still the merit of having kept the ordination for such and such a long time. Though there is still a fault in this because one promised to keep the ordination until the end of life, it is by far better than to break the vows, which brings even more complications because unlike Bodhisattva or Tantric vows which one looses in case of a root downfall completely, the other unbroken ordination vows of an ordained person are still intact! So if one doesn’t give them back after a root downfall one can commit even more root downfalls. An ordained person with a root downfall is therefore called “a rich person with a debt” because (though he / she is not a proper monk / nun any more) the other vows are still in the mind stream. Without proper knowledge (which does not exist in NKT and their “modern” approach) the ordained following NKT can be really harmed.
    
    On top of this Kelsang Gyatso has refused in the past different times to accept that people want to give back the robes, he said he does not like this or so. This “I don’t like this” attitude is in contradiction to what the Buddha gave explicit permission, and pushes people to keep the ordination though they might be at risk to break it. If people give back the robes in NKT, they are banned for one year from their NKT centre—them is prohibited to come to their centre. This also gives the impression to have done a major crime by giving back the robes, but the Buddha gave permission to do it. So due to a lack of knowledge, experience, and study there is insecurity and fear, arbitrary rules and harm for the ordained. You can call this “modern”, I call it “wrong”. Why? Because this “modernism” harms the ordained.
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      fleadle on January 27, 2013 at 10:41 pm
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      There is so little guidance in NKT for ordained people and no real preparation,no wonder so many disrobe. I had more guidance when I got confirmed at 13 than I did for ordination and then when you hand back your robes you get punished, left alone for a year, my friends were told to leave me alone just when you need the most support. I got very depressed, I wanted to die,the guilt was awful. I was so happy when I was told it is made up ORdination in NKT, I was mentally unstable when I got ordained it happens too fast, why? Because lots of ordained people look good. It’s all for image,that’s all KG cares about his image.
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author on May 31, 2012 at 12:42 pm
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I believe the decision to incorporate Dorje Shugden practice into the Gelug tradition was result of modernist tendencies, as is the recent decision by the NKT to teach the idea of Buddhism for world peace (great money spinner, that one!)

As Maitreya Buddha said

“One should not distort the discourses presented by the Sage himself
Since this would destroy the Sage’s mode of teaching and, furthermore, cause harm to the sacred Dharma”

Those who would argue with the Buddha on this point are either Buddhas or fools!
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  ratikala on May 31, 2012 at 9:46 pm
  Reply
  
  one thing that I learnt from my experience with the nkt (and later with other buddhist schools) is that there is a ballance to be accheived .
  It has been interesting returning to the conversation and hearing a discussion about dharma for the west , I think I am with the …”risk of throwing out the baby with the bath water” analogy .
  excuse my being blunt , but if buddha taught that we should regard dharma as medicine and that we should regard him (or a true teacher quallified in dharma) as physician , ……..?
  then who are we to beleive that we can self medicate ! that we can re write the dharma to suit our selves ???
  This is where the nkt went wrong , beliving that it could re write the dharma , re organise the medication , what was originaly a study program which took ordained monks many years to accomplish , we foolishly thought we could fast track , the nkt dangled the carrot and knowing no better we belived , because we wanted to beleive , I was concidering ordination but being a little older than some and allready having some grounding , I knew that it wasnt so simple and I was cautious of the romantic ideals and a little worried about the lack of experienced guidance , and it was when the dorje shugden issue broke out that finaly I had to leave as I didnt want to get into that debate .
  after I left I tried to find another tibetan school to join , but where ever I went I kept meeting very nicely intentioned westerners who had taken up the tibetan path for all manner of reasons , but none that I recognised as the true reason , I went to a lot of different schools and came away thinking that it was me that prehaps I was crazy , that the impression that I had gained from reading tibetan works was just a figment of my imagination , or was it that the well intentioned westerner had allready thrown the baby out with the bath water many years ago , yes I could see traces of the attitude I had read and the teachings were the same but the essence was missing and something else was taking its place , a new bread of buddhist ….? … this prehaps is imperminance ?….but who are we the un enlightened , to be re shaping the system for the practice of dharma ?… we the ignorant , mooving the goal posts !
  what I thought then I think now , that we should approach the dharma as a precious jewel , but allso as the flame of knowledge that should treated with care and reverence least it should be extinguished , it is for us to rise above our western conditioning , to detatch ourselves from it , to be in it but not of it ! …it is us that should be adapting our selves to realise the dharma , not us that should be adapting the dharma to fit around our minds and our conditioning .
  
  I canot help but see a lot of attatchment to the high ideals of tibetan buddhism , to the practice the mudras , the chanting , to the being a ‘tibetan buddhist’, and not enough simple keeping of precepts or humble practice .
  
  I have a deep gratitude for the tibetan teachings as I have benifited greatly from their existance in the west , but I preffer to stick to original texts or faithfull translations and whilst it is true that nothing remains static , there is a ballance to be accheived between making it accessable and keeping its purity .
  
  as it has allready been mentioned many highly trained lamas have fallen , have succomed to dellusion . if those more highly trained than ourselves can be overcome and can concoct and pervert the dharma what then of our selves ?
  
  In veiw of this I am in favour of faithfull preservation of the dharma and beleive that we should practice simply and gain firm footing in the basic teachings before we try to be over ambitions .
  
  I think we would benifit greatly from a lengthly study of the noble eight fold path , as lengthly as one whole life time ! .. then, yes , the west may change sufficiently as to understand the dharma and in future gennerations buddhism may truely establish it self here.
  
  but I think we ned to be vigilant that that flame does not go out ! it is only by truely understanding dharma and truely valuing it that it will remain . .. and it is through humility and simplicity that it remains alive .
  
  I hope you understand my sentiments and forgive my out pouring of what may seem to be personal opinion
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    author on June 1, 2012 at 10:15 am
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    If you look at the publicty for their upcoming ‘Modern Buddhism’ event in Manchester (which, entirely coincidentally, takes place on the same day the Dalai Lama is teaching there) the great Yogini (or is it yogin?) Dekyong, talks extensively about Buddhism for World Peace. Since the NKT claim to be the offspirng of Tzong Khapa,I wonder if they will be able to point to which if his writings he teaches such a doctrine??? Its amazing how people can claim to be traditional and teach world peace, or modern and worship a 17th century spirit, or even the true followers of TzongKhapa and teach world peace and DS worship, neither of which featured in TzongKhapa’s spiritual curriculum
  - 88
    
    fleadle on January 27, 2013 at 10:50 pm
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    We can not simply get rid of our western tendencies, they shape us, Tibetan Buddhism has to change in the west simply because we are not Tibetan. Buddha said it is not enough to just read his teachings and take it as true it needs to be tested,maybe we need to follow his example rather than just his words.
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author on May 31, 2012 at 2:24 pm
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“I do know that for myself and some others trying to absolutely follow Tibetan traditions doesn’t work, it means there are parts of what our Tibetan teachers tell us that makes us uneasy.
So I guess modern times are times of experimentation in Western Buddhism that have to happen”

This assumes that there are some parts of the Dharma which are faulty, rather than the faults lying in ourselves and that the way to ‘fix’ this is to change the Dharma. Thars a huge slippery slope, in particular the suggestion that we should change the Dharma to fit ourselves, rather than change oursleves to fit the Dharma. Your arguments are the preface to most New Religious Movements approaches’

We dont need to experiment, we need to realise, then experiment. As sentie
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  ratikala on June 2, 2012 at 8:21 pm
  Reply
  
  dear author ,
  
  ” modern times are times of experimrntation in western buddhism which have to happen”
  
  and your answer is …..”this assumes that some parts of the dharma are faulty “I agree that it is the western mind which is at fault , …. which is no criticism but simply an observation of the natural order of things .
  
  what we need is to purify the veichle , simplify and leave ourselves open to the understanding of the dharma . the dharma can never be changed , only forgotten or dissregarded . any altered version of the dharma is no longer the dharma , as altered truth is no longer the truth .
  
  I think what we are talking about is the path , the tibetan system for acheiving which of course is relative ,
  but the dharma is universal and un changing ,
  
  just a thought no intention to criticise .
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    author on June 3, 2012 at 9:32 am
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    No offence taken-youre right! I am a firm believer in practicing whatever path we have inherited until we realise it, then reforming it where necessary to fit Western psychological mores. The point is we should realise it first before reshaping it.
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EKC on May 31, 2012 at 2:27 pm
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The DS controversy is interesting. How many Westerners really believe these practices damage the Dalai Lama’s lifespan and how many believe this is simply a Tibetan superstitious argument gone West, and/or that the issue is being pushed by hidden Chinese influences? Will it matter at all after the current Dalai Lama dies, especially if the line of Dalai Lamas ends with him? To Westerners perhaps what matters most is the protests that have been very uncomfortable for Buddhists in general and for people going to the Dalai Lama’s events.

I don’t think Buddha would expect modern Western practitioners to be doing more or less exactly what Indian practitioners were doing 2500 years ago. The Buddha, like Jesus, was something of a revolutionary, and I think he’d support progress. Your pov may differ.

Anyway, as I say we can get nowhere with this as we start at fundamentally different points. I am going to stop trying to convince you, and would appreciate the same in return 🙂 Let us live and let live.
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author on May 31, 2012 at 5:21 pm
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nt beings, we are unqualified to determine what liberates and what is appropriate since we are not liberated ourselves: would you take driving lessons off someone who had no driving licence? No, first get enlightened THEN determine what works and what doesnt.

You suggest ‘experimentation’ This was Sangharakshita’s justification for sexual abuse. On the other hand, I have never heard any genuine master suggest experimentation. First follow and realise the path, then teach others how to do it. We are children in the Dharma, not experts-that takes lifetimes.

And you neednt worry about Tibetan teachers being afraid of ‘losing control’ of the Dharma (NKT speak if ever I heard it!) They already did! Its in our hands now and we therefore have a great responsibility. Brainstorming a few ideas of what might work when we have so few realised westerners and are overwhelmingly inexperienced would be the biggest mistake we could make at this early , early stage
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  Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 11:03 pm
  Reply
  
  “we are unqualified to determine what liberates and what is appropriate since we are not liberated ourselves”
  
  I would pose that as people trying to understand what liberates us, we have something to add to the discussion. Many times a teacher will ask the class, “Is that the right word?” i.e. he/she, as a Tibetan, recognizes that translation is a two-way street, and it’s our job as students to help with this translation process as Tibetan teachings are introduced to the West.
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Sheila on May 31, 2012 at 9:21 pm
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Not all student activity is “dangerous experimentation,” though – daring to apply a teaching to ones own situation, even if that specific situation isn’t mentioned in a sutra, may be simply applying the teachings to our lives, which is in fact what we’re supposed to do.

Translating a Tibetan prayer into English, and singing it in English rather than Tibetan, might be considered “experimentation,” but if the translation is accurate, I doubt this sort of experimentation would be discouraged, but rather encouraged. I’ve heard some sanghas doing just that.

There is great room for creativity within the Dharma, and as long as we’re mindful of upholding the purpose of any particular practice, I don’t think we should be afraid of exercising this creativity. I do agree that we should ask our teacher about our ideas and receive guidance on adaptations whenever possible.

I would have to respectfully disagree, overall, that we shouldn’t “theorize,” for I believe Buddhism encourages investigation and exploration; if we haven’t theorized, and come to reasoned conclusions, then our acceptance of this eastern Dharma would be based on blind faith rather than logic, and the latter is what is encouraged. I agree we shouldn’t just frivolously reshape the Dharma without careful investigation and without seeking advice from our teachers.
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author on June 1, 2012 at 8:52 am
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Your asertion that a Tibetan may ask questions on English language, is qutie correct: we speak english and they do not, after all. However, this does not ‘translate’ when it comes to Dharma and the path to enlightenment-The Buddha would not ask our advice on that as he knows that is his own language and one that we do not speak

You suggest”There is great room for creativity within the Dharma”. I am not quite sure what this euphemism means but I do know that my own teacher has said that innovation is anathema in Dharma. Perhpas you are refering to thangka painting. However, even there, there are strict guidelines to be followed and conformed to. Whenn HH was asked if we should paint Buddhas with Western features he advised against, stating it was more appropriate to maintain their oriental features (as in ‘Eastern’, not ‘Chinese’)

You “respectfully disagree, overall, that we shouldn’t “theorize,” I dont recal suggesting that we should not theorize, indeed, theorising may serve as a great aid in analytical mediation. The problem arises however when we, as ordinary, deluded beings ‘theorize’ what leads to liberation and enlightement, then convey our ideas to others as ‘Dharma’> How can we possibly know the best ways to achieve liberation and enlightenment until we have insight into these states? Again, specualtion about how the path works and practice are two distinct phenomena. Theorizing is generally considered discursive thought (Namthog) whereas practice of meditation leads to liberation. I know which path I follow and I know whose word I trust. Inflated ideas of the value of our own opinons are the demon of pride, particularly ridiculous when we know so little. Lets llisten to the Buddhas, follow their teaching and realise the truth, before we start theorizing
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  EKC on June 2, 2012 at 8:09 am
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  Hm, but isn’t asserting that following tradition is always best a very strong (perhaps inflated) opinion as well? We *all* need to look at such things.
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    author on June 2, 2012 at 9:47 am
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    My opinion is in accord with the great masters so I have no shame in holding it. on the other hand, those who have done much to damage the Dharma in the past (Kelsang Gyatso et al, for example) have prefaced their destructive activities with a claim of the need for modernisation.
    
    No one is arguing against reform; the problem is re-invention. Tzong Kha Pa himself was a great reformer. However, he invented nothing new. All of the practices of the Gelug are either taken directly from the preceding traditions (as in all of its tantras) or are a rewriting of concepts that were very clearly locatable within the Buddhist tradition (as in the Lam RIm works, which are authentic emulations of the Kadam approach)-No inventions
    
    Again, if we look at how Tzong Kha Pa came to his synthesis, he first studied tirelessly for many years with masters of all the traditions, then purified and accumulated merit without faltering until he had achieved realisation. Having done that, he saw no need to re-invent anything,d espite the Dharma he inherited already being 1500 years old..
    
    So whose ‘opinion’ should we listen to? A few westerners still wet behind the ears with a few minutes of genuine Dharma practice to their name, or the great masters of the past, who have years, nideed lifetimes of practicing Dharma until it had become onenness with their minds, and had fully relaised the signifcnace of its meaning. Who you gonna call?
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author on June 1, 2012 at 9:38 pm
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OOOOOOOOOOOOH TSAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
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EKC on June 2, 2012 at 1:58 pm
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author: “So whose ‘opinion’ should we listen to? A few westerners still wet behind the ears with a few minutes of genuine Dharma practice to their name, or the great masters of the past, […]”

Both, I’d say. How can the great masters of the past do anything about what is bothering – and sometimes damaging – people trying to practice today? And because some have got it wrong that by no means says all will, it takes time – we’ve already heard 200 or 400 years – to start getting it right most of the time. Examples from other missionary religions – and Buddhism in other countries – tell much the same story, and none has yet found a way to not go through that time of trial and error.

Making out that Westerners have no right to a say or opinion about their own ways of practising makes no sense to me, especially when I have seen the damage from more mainstream Buddhism, not just NRMs and cults.

I said in another thread, we need to consult people of all levels. I’d add to that, all the time. Our current Western society is much more individuality orientated than traditional Eastern ways, and that has to be addressed.

Also, we need to be very careful about the vailidity of our sources from the past. There are questions humanities students learn to ask, like how long after someone said something was it written down, and very importantly, who was the intended audience? Also who wrote it down, and did *they* have a different agenda? We know already that there are different dharma teachings for different people with different delusions, and that some are even the opposite of each other, and that what a master tells one student may be totally different to what s/he tells another. It might be reasonable to say that the advice given to a particular set of students at a particular time and place simply wasn’t meant to be used elsewhere and elsewhen. Also, how much was said and didn’t get written down? Maybe some of that contradicted what was written down.

These specific times are so fast moving, information overload orientated, non-religious in a lot of places, and so forth, and therefore very very different from any previous times. And this place, this society, still labours under difficulties like misplaced guilt and self esteem issues (which I’ve metioned elsewhere too).

You use denigrating terms to try to say Western practitioners shouldn’t be listened to; it would be equally possible but equally unecessarily offensive to use denigrating terms about past sources, should one wish to descend to that level. But it would maybe be a useful exercise to think how someone who wanted to could justify logically not taking everything as read.

Consider too that waiting until someone has realisations until taking their voice as valid only allows inclusion of those that can use traditional ways, when clearly there is a need to find out what would help those who can’t also.

However again we are in the state where we will not be able to agree, so again I suggest respectfully that we just leave it, to keep – or regain – the peace.
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tenpel on June 2, 2012 at 5:17 pm
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Hi there, I lack time to read the recent posts, so I didn’t reply. I hope everything is fine and nobody is attacked … Have a nice weekend.
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author on June 2, 2012 at 6:12 pm
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EKC, with regard to academic analysis, ever heard the saying “Dont try and teach your granny how to suck eggs”? You appeal to contemporary sensibilities to support your arguments; I appeal to scriptural citation and the direct perception of realised beings-again, who you gonna call?

You stand shoulder to shoulder with the ‘reformers’ of contemporary Buddhism (K Gyatso, Sangharakshita, Ikeda) I stand, respectfully and with my head bowed, alongside the Buddhas-again, who you gonna call?

“How can the great masters of the past do anything about what is bothering – and sometimes damaging – people trying to practice today”

Forgive me but I cant quite see how desire, hatred and ignorance today are in any way different to those at the time of the Buddha-they wanted the best chariot, nowadays people crave the newest Mercedes-Object+different Subject+the same

I do not denigrate Westernersr I denigrate inexperience masquerading as the voice of understanding; I suggest that when the Dharma is less than half a century old in the West, and most of the ‘experts’ who commentate have been practicing for only a decade or two and for a couple of hours a day (if they are real yogis!), they do not yet have any right to correct the Buddha or say what does and does not liberate. OK-they can perhaps give advice such as dont expect people to get up at 3:30 in the morning to do their prayers, but when it comes to understanding the workings of the human ego, they are still in nappies and should have the humility and self understanding to be able to say “I’m not ready to tell others what or how to practice yet” rather than sitting around chatting about what they do or do not find comfortable in their Dharma practice.

Leave engineering to engineers, science to scientists, and the path to freedom to the liberated. Would you fly in a plane built by children? Or mix volatile chemicals on the advice of a 1st grade chemistry student? Of course not; they are obviously not qualifed. So how can beginners on a path describe the journey and its end, or how to traverse difficulties they havent even encountered?
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  EKC on June 2, 2012 at 9:17 pm
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  I can see no further use for this discussion, you respect only your own sources, my broader view upsets you. I therefore bow out of continuing this before it gets nastier than necessary.
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    author on June 3, 2012 at 9:29 am
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    My ‘own sources’ are enlightened masters with deep insight into the nature of reality. The ‘sources’ you refer to (I am not aware of you producing any citations for your opinions, only your interpretations of the opinions of contemporary academia) are totally inexperienced in the path, “wet behind the ears” (from only recent birth” as they say.
    
    While I fully agree that we should rely upon the advice of those who are knowledgeable when we discuss these issues. none of the ‘modernist’ opinions you offer are based on direct perception or the advice of those who genuinely know the path for example; they are all personal supposition.
    
    On the other hand, my ‘traditionalist’ position is supported by the words of generations of experienced and knowledgeable practitioners who have fully realised the significance of the path and is supported by their direct perception, their testimony and valid cognition and reasoning. Do you honestly consider your knowledge, experience or opinions to be as valid as those of these enlightened beings? I believe it was Sakya Pandita who said that ‘Those who would argue with the wise are themselves fools’; if you want to put in a complaint about such criticism, address it to the supreme head of the Sakya tradition or send it to the pure lands 😉
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    tenpel on June 3, 2012 at 8:58 pm
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    Dear EKC & all, I am sorry that the discussion seems to have gone astray again … I wasn’t able to follow or to read the comments, I just approved new comments without reading them, except one short one by Bela. So if any thing went wrong or destructive, I do apologize, for not being able to take time to read the comments and to intervene if needed. Its my fault. At the moment I have a lot of other things to do, and I didn’t expect such an extensive discussion.
    
    There is still one reply of yours I have to answer. I am going to reply that comment next week, when I find more time. With respect to modernizing Buddhism it might be useful to read this public talk by J. Garfield, which I uploaded today: http://www.info-buddhism.com/Three_Turnings_of_The_Wheel_of_Dharma_Jay_Garfield.html there is another public talk (transcript) about Buddhism in the West by him on the site which might be useful too.
    
    All the best. Tomorrow is Saka Dawa, a special day. Lets make a pause in posting or only to state virtuous things. Tenpel.
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Sheila on June 2, 2012 at 6:56 pm
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Here is a piece by Geshe Lhundup Sopa which mentions the point that Vajrayana is considered to be practiced in addition to, not in lieu of, many of the common Mahayana paths:

http://bit.ly/KlKee6
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author on June 2, 2012 at 9:29 pm
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Again Sheila? Exactly where did I suggest that Vajrayana is practiced “in lieu of, many of the common Mahayana paths”? (Answer: nowhere) I suggested, in accord with the advice of qualified masters, that, depending on individual propensities and having cultivated the necessary preliminaries, some practiced sutra and tantra simultaneously, while some, having cultivated the sutra path, then focus on tantra without reverting to sutra philosophy as a basis for their view

In the text which forms the very basis of the practice of the New Translation schools of the Tibetan traditions,Je Atisha’s Lamp for the Path, (Lam Dron), Atisha emphasises that the proper basis for tantric practice is the cultivation of the two accumulations and the practice of the Three Higher Trainings
While these practices are seen as an essential prerequisite, nowhere in Atisha’s text does it suggest that practicing in succession or in unison is superior, only that one needs the proper basis of the sutra path before one receives initiation.

If one cultivates these two stages in succession, rather than simultaneously, this is not practicing one ,’in lieu’ of the other: if one builds the foundations of a house and then the walls and roof, are these walls and roof ‘in lieu’ of the foundations? Of course not.

If one looks at the advice of Pabongka, of whom the Dalai Lama and Geshe Sopa are the direct spiritual descendants, he states that, whereas previously the stages of the path were practiced in succession, since time has become shorter, it is now appropriate to practice the different stages of the path throughout each day, starting the day with basics such as death awareness, purifying, accumulating merit dduring the day, and meditating on the two tantirc stages in the evening.

This was advice Pabongka gave to his disciples, though his approach was certainly not by any means universal in Tibet. Implicitly however, it indicates the validity of BOTH approaches (He clearly states that formerly tantric practice followed sutra practice). I happen to have been instructed by my well qualified masters to hold to one of these. Clearly, you hold to the other. Do you honestly think Buddhism is a ‘one size fits all’ type religion? Or do you think it plausible that teachers who have access to various teaching methods created to address the varying needs and propensities might instruct their students on an individual basis?

Would you prescribe the same medicine for a thousand different ailments? Please, in future,if you are going to accuse people of making ridiculous statements, cite the source
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  anonymous on June 3, 2012 at 6:02 pm
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  Ouch, this is a Buddhist blog, no? The sign of a true Buddhist lies in their behaviour………… I am not impressed.
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    author on June 4, 2012 at 10:06 am
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    This smacks of the Western view of what Buddhism is, all touchy feely and ‘nice’. Did the Buddha teach that we should reformulate our ego to accord with some contemporary stereotype or did he express the need to be truly who and what we are I wonder?In short, did he say we should take off one mask and replace it with our newfound, Western Buddhist one (all quietly spoken, stroking little childrens heads and giving succour to the aged and infirm [Thank you Jesus]) or did he suggest that we become what we truly are?
    
    I am often taken aback by the arrogant tendency amongst Westerners to impute their Western mores onto Buddhist practice, although why I do not know; the practice is rife. One need only look at any NKT video of the groups seniors to see inexperienced Westerners attemting to mirror the behaviour of their seniors, in voice and even hand gesture.
    
    My conclusion, having spent nearly 40 years in the faith, is that Buddha taught numerous ways of behaving, each of them suitable tot hose he taught them for.Examine the behaviour of the great Buddhist figures of the past; Ra Lotsawa (who murdered non-believers) Marpa (who ordered the death of his enemies and beat his disciples) Tilopa (who drove his disciple to the edge of madness and caused them to nearly die). Dont you think these people, and the thousands of other examples it is possible to read about in the life stories of the traditions, might at least in part have been trying to show us something about the need to transcend narrow stereotypes?Isnt it possible that they might have been saying to us, ‘Its not how you think it is’. Or, are these people not ‘true Buddhists’ as you put it? Of course, they might not appear to be truly conforming to your ego-created Buddhist stereotypes. But those are two different things.
    
    I believe this type of thinking is amanifestation of the same mntality thinks that Tibet was awonderful pureland, shrouded in the mists of romanticism. Where yogis floated on clouds and everybody loved each other (thank you Woodstock) The reality however, seems to be that Tibetans were slightly more human-eye gouging to settle ‘inconsistencies’ was not unknown for example.
    
    Again, we seem to interpet Dharma in a way that makes it easy for our egos to pigeon hole it, and what easier way than assuming that it is juust like Christianity, all bleeding heart and hugs, with a bit of emtiness thrown in instead of God.
    
    Examine the different paths however, and one finds methods that come back right in the face of such narrow minded concepts. Teachings that say dont try to change anything, teachings that suggest we allow delusions to arise and see them as pure rather than suppress them, teachings that tell us we are already perfect and dont need to change what we are just to see our true nature.Indeed, such teachings are considered faster and superior to the approach some people consider to be Buddhism here in LaLaLand
    
    Having lived among Tibetans for longer than most people here have been practicing, I can assure you, there are many ways of being and these different ways of being manifest as the many different characters one encounters along the path. Tibet was not a land filled with people all behaving in exactly the same fashion, all being nice to each other and falling over themselves to conform to somebody elses stereotype.In short, the Buddha did not teach that we should take off masks only to replace them with another; rather he taught to just drop our mask and be what we truly are!
    
    PS Carol, exactly what is wrong with asking for scritural citation to support ones view? Did the great scholars of the path not use this as a basis for establishing the validity of their argument?
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    tenpel on June 4, 2012 at 6:31 pm
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    This smacks of the Western view of what Buddhism is, all touchy feely and ‘nice’. Did the Buddha teach that we should reformulate our ego to accord with some contemporary stereotype or did he express the need to be truly who and what we are I wonder?In short, did he say we should take off one mask and replace it with our newfound, Western Buddhist one (all quietly spoken, stroking little childrens heads and giving succour to the aged and infirm [Thank you Jesus]) or did he suggest that we become what we truly are?
    
    I don’t think, author, that your reply is very helpful.
    
    My opinion and understanding is:
    
    People want to be treated kind, and this is perfectly ok. Its good for us too to be kind. Behind every name or poster is a human being with feelings and a story. As the Bodhisattva vows state:
    
    (quote from A. Berzin)
    
    “Not going along with the preferences of others
    
    So long as what others wish us to do or what they like is not harmful to them or to others, it is a fault not to agree. Everyone does things differently or has individual tastes. If we do not honor this, because of spite, laziness, or indifference, we start petty arguments about things like where to eat, or we are insensitive to their preferences and arouse their discomfort or resentment when ordering the menu.”
    
    —
    
    To help others we must go in accordance with their way of thinking and prefernces, all these “you are like this and that, you aren’t like this and that, you haven’t understood this and that etc.” is not helpful, I think. Or is it? How many times did you receive a word of gratitude for your “corrections”?
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Carol on June 3, 2012 at 9:44 pm
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I find it difficult to see that a useful and compassionate discussion on the issue of being ‘ex-NKT’ has abruptly ended in a quite forceful demand for ‘sources’. Surely this is a forum to discuss these issues gently and manifest the kindness of Dharma here too. We really need kindness. And to not find myself needing ‘sources’ I could venture to say that this is very evident in the teachings of all Buddhist schools…From what I have read from ‘traditional’ sutras, the Buddha used many different methods of teaching so surely all points of view could be presented on here with that kindness. It is Tenzin’s site and he has always given that example of kindness but without lacking accuracy.
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Carol on June 3, 2012 at 9:46 pm
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Surely we can continue a conversation about the difficulties for NKT survivors – and this would start with the problems of identifying ‘Masters’ or ‘Mistresses’ of meditation. I have just returned from hearing Khandro Rinpoche teaching in Wales and, as has often happened to me, I am overwhelmed with the difference in quality, in truth, in integrity and in sheer good humour with anything in the NKT. As an ‘ex’ (with 12 years in the NKT) I inevitably compare and the comparison is shocking….Anyone else suffer that kind of ‘ex-NKT’ ‘grief’ at so much we didn’t have…? But then perhaps I am assuming that people have been able to meet superb teachers and that may not be the case…as ratikala says…
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  tenpel on June 3, 2012 at 9:53 pm
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  I know these ‘shocks’ “with the difference in quality, in truth, in integrity and in sheer good humour with anything in the NKT.” My body often trembled, I couldn’t get the two things together … Often it happened when I was following HH the Dalai Lama teachings. The ‘shock’ was to have this experience of NKT and then to meet authentic, upright teachers. I had these ‘shock experiences’ for some years. Khandro Rinpoche is also one of these really really great teachers! She is really extra ordinary.
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    Carol on June 3, 2012 at 9:58 pm
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    And these ‘real’ teachers ‘really’ do change your life – you aren’t the same after hearing them! I also feel I have strayed a long way from the Dharma in the struggle to remove the NKT from the deeper levels of my mind…
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    author on June 4, 2012 at 1:02 pm
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    It was in fact Tenzin that suggested we use scriptural citation to support our perspective. And, while I am sure Khandro Rinpoche is amazing, there is great danger in seeing the teacher as some sort of charismatic saviour-its a huge mistake in the NKT and a huge mistake in the world of Dharma too ;). The shocks are ‘nyam’ (experiences brought about by the movement of airs in the nervous system) and the advice of the masters is not to cling to them or they become obstacles
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      tenpel on June 4, 2012 at 6:53 pm
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      as long as one is seeing her really existing qualities, there is no danger. to see her qualities is the basis of faith and that is the basis of aspiration, and that is the basis of effort and this leads to the fulfillment of one’s wishes.
      
      —-
      just as a side thought, author:
      It appears to me that what you are doing, and I assume this happened in other comments of you as well here on the blog, is, that you rather look from the negative side and what I or Carol wanted to say is not much related to what you replied. So then there is an impulse to either ignore what you said or to correct you, which then leads to another “correction” by you, and this seems to me to be a bit the pattern of some of the discussions.
      
      —-
      
      Thank you for the explanation of the ‘nyam’ its true that they say this and stress not to cling to this. I had not clung to those experiences, its just a report about how I experienced the clash of these “two opposing realities”. I rather would see it as a mental struggle to bring two obvious opposing realities together which seem to be utter different. The same happens when one clings to permanence (which we all do in one way or the other) and then suddenly one is experiencing strong violence like a class mate takes his gun and is shooting on other class mates. The imagined reality in mind about reality does not correspond to what one is experiencing, both realities seem to be utter contradictory and one cannot bring both together. This tension leads to a ‘shock’, a struggle what of these two opposing realities is the reality. Its like being between a strong plus and minus pole of electricity.
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    tenpel on June 4, 2012 at 6:18 pm
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    And these ‘real’ teachers ‘really’ do change your life – you aren’t the same after hearing them!
    
    Their realizations and way of teachings can really have a great impact on the mind, and inspire one’s practices deeply … that’s true.
    
    —-
    
    With respect to NKT ordination–though I don’t have these ‘shocks’ any more–today it came again to my mind how utter different the NKT world is. To give again an example just of an ordained life:
    
    We had today Saga Dawa celebration see these images and captures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cup-o-cino/sets/72157630045034446/
    
    What are some of the differences to NKT?
    1) there are many great teachers present (in NKT you have only Geshe-la and almost no access to him)
    2) you are invited as monks or nuns as honourable guests to all Dharma events (in NKT you have always to pay, and its even hard to get a reduction if you don’t have money) on top of it people are happy to sponsor you a meal.
    3) I can live and study as a monk who is not affiliated with FPMT for free here (in NKT I had to pay for everything: accommodation, study, empowerments, festivals, they asked always for money and it was never enough – when I lived as a non-Buddhist lay person in the midst of Berlin I had to pay for a complete flat only 173 DM, but when I moved to the NKT centre I had to pay for a small room 500 DM. When I said this is quite a lot (especially for a student) the reply was: I have to check if it is really worth to me to become a student of the Dharma)
    From us it is expected to work 5 hours a week for the centre here. This is not very much! (In NKT you had to work around the clock and it was never enough …)
    4) Instead of asking monks or nuns for money outside of NKT they are happy to offer events and what ever is possible for free and if they can they offer on top of it donations to the monks and nuns. When we were following the teachings of HH Dalai Lama in Paris, not only were the teachings for free, they gave every ordained person a donation of 60€. (Its not about money, but the attitude what I want to stress here.)
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  EKC on June 11, 2012 at 6:20 pm
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  Thank you Carol for bringing things back on track. I was beginning to feel very attacked, and I haven’t checked here for over a week as a consequence, to let things die down. It is worth reflecting though, why these discussions always seem to end up going into esoteric parts of Buddhism and arguments therein, when they start so far from that. In writing this piece I wanted to appeal to ex-NKT people, to offer some hopefully supportive and useful thoughts, and I’m saddened that the way this discussion has gone will be a lasting legacy under the piece I wrote with all good intentions.
  
  A friend has recommended Khandro Rinpoche but I’ve not had a chance to check it out yet. I’m personally trying a very different direction soon – looking into the Quakers. The same friend is supportive of this and pointed out that one of the good points of Quakerism for Westerners is that it is native to our kinds of cultures, so lacking much of the esoteric “weirdness” of trying to assimilate teachings and practices from very different cultures and, as Tenzin says, trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  
  Anyone else going to see the Dalai Lama while he’s in the UK? I’ll be at the public talk on the afternoon of Sunday 17th June.
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    Carol on June 11, 2012 at 10:30 pm
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    The Quakers seem quite tranquil in general. In Brighton they are quite elderly and I have a friend who is one but is interested in the Buddhist teachings on patience; they don’t have anything equivalent. I went rather ‘Catholic’ when I was first out, just because Christianity felt ‘safer’ just in terms of my personal experience, having lived nearly 20 years in Mexico where the churches were always open even though they were packed with gold. I always knew I would ‘return’ to Buddhism; the teachings are so profound and life-changing but any sangha I go to has to be person-centred and authentic. (Don’t make me define that author…!) I check everyone out with Inform (a few years back they posted me a link to support groups for women abused by Sogyal in France…). We need to feel comfortable on one level, where spirituality is concerned, methinks, otherwise something in us cannot relax sufficiently for the mind to open.
    
    I’ll be at the Dalai Lama’s talk on the 17th. Would love to meet up…now that my old friends won’t be shouting outside.. 😉
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Author on June 4, 2012 at 5:57 pm
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Again ‘real teachers’ cant change your life-‘real’ application of their teachings is what does the trick. Once the love affair is over, there is only you and the Dharma
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author on June 4, 2012 at 8:36 pm
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As for receiving thanks for corrections, Im not too worried since thats one of my traits that never did make me popular, However, popularity is a minor consideration, particularly when compared to matters of truth vs fiction. Hence my tendency to say, not what fits with the view of others (especially when that view totally contradicts what I know to be true;’ the dharma needs modernising’, ‘dharma is about being nice and not upsetting people’, or ‘such and such a teacher exudes sunlight’) but what is true. I recall a discussion at Trungpa;s centre when they were contemplating starting a film company: should they make films people WANTED to see or films people NEEDED to see. I know what I think. But dont worry, as they say, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And since I am the heat here, maybe I’ll cool down for a while. just so everyone can feel nice and cosy…….and complacent 😉
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  tenpel on June 4, 2012 at 9:34 pm
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  The point I want to make is, if one doesn’t communicate a concern so that the other person can learn something from it, then what is the use of the engagement? Even if it were basically correct what one said? If one communicates in a way that people have a learning effect, if the feel richer than previously, which means they pick up certain things, then the engagement might have some value. Of course, also Thubten Choedroen says, that the dharma / truth must undermine the ego and this is not necessarily pleasant. But the key I would posit is: there must be a learning effect then it was worth, if not …
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  tenpel on June 4, 2012 at 9:37 pm
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  And there is another point. people who have left abusive systems or experienced abuse, they need kindness, kindness, kindness, and a type of support that uplifts their mind. Its not about being cosy. Its about what is helpful at what time and what is not helpful at a certain time.
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    anonymous on June 8, 2012 at 10:26 pm
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    Not just kindness, but it is surely appropriate in this blog.
    I always believed that the purpose of following the Buddhist path was to increase our compassion, love, to learn to behave with dignity and appropriateness. To learn to watch the mind, and to avoid negative actions of body, speech and mind.
    Of course it remains aspiration in my case for sure, even after 30 years, but nevertheless how can we call ourself a practicing Buddhist if we don’t at least try? To meditate on a regular basis, say prayers, and use that experience to face the day with a relative sense of equanimity.
    Or is that all wrong? Is it nowadays about in-depth academic discussions, and saying whatever we like, no matter what the recipient might need?
    It takes two to tango, and personally I prefer to look at where I went wrong rather than to externalize the blame onto some nebulous entity. After all, these organizations are made up of people, just like us!
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author on June 4, 2012 at 10:00 pm
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Four ways gathering disciples-but i dont want disciples-Im nice really! Love to everyone-dont take me or it seriously-lifes too short On the other hand, lets always try to speak the truth and not stand on niceties-thats how communication is in a family
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  tenpel on June 4, 2012 at 10:16 pm
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  honest and kind; and frank if needed.
  i also don’t want disciples 😉
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Author on June 5, 2012 at 8:03 am
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I guess thats what I mean- ! have kids, some teenage. In our home, it can get pretty brutal: some harsh truths have to be faced on a regular basis. And we’re not nice to each other; we tell it like it us, even if it hurts.
In Dharna centres, its easy to avoid the sharp edges-If you want to avoid someone, if your non-resident, you just dont go anf resident, you just close your door or dont speak to them (and the delusion festers inside!) You certainly have to try your hardest to be what others expect you to be-all holy and peaceful

This difference is carrying over in our experience of the web. Dharma sites might appear to be more like Dharma centtes but the reality of the internet is that it affords us the opportunity to be honest about what we think and not stand on former formalities.
Of course, this is no reason to be downright rude (like me!) What I am saying is it is a new world to us, one that none of us lived in in our childhood or youth. So finding our levels takes time. In that way, I am still learning. of course, we should be well meaning and respecfful during our interactions via the web. But heaven forbid that it should become a place where we cant say what we think. Especially if we see mistkaes being made and have the opportunity to correct them.
I think its also important to remember how our image of others is primarily a projected one and, due to the nature of the communication via the web, we tend to hold to one image of another poster rather than assuming fluidity-If I post one critical post, ny hostility is assumed and then each subsequent post is assumed to be an attack and is met with criticism-its a downward spiral.
Just a thought
- 128
  
  tenpel on June 5, 2012 at 8:39 pm
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  WHat to say … I prefer Geshe Langri Tangpa as an inspiration.
- 129
  
  Carol on June 5, 2012 at 8:55 pm
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  Dear ‘author’.
  
  I was trying to say that I hoped I would not need ‘sources’ to speak up for the need for compassion!!!
  
  😉
  
  I would also note that teachers like Khandro Rinpoche (and I do not think there are many of them!) are not people I ‘copy’ in behaviours, etc (how sad that you think this is the way I am inspired). I regard her as a teacher, and as such, yes, it is her teachings that, putting them into practice, creates the change. But she is a source of inspiration TO practice. In other words, she reflects the practice in her being, in her analysis, her manner, her interaction. It is stunning to have a question from a previous teaching and to be able to leave the question written by hand, on her table and have her read it and answer it immediately. No ‘assistants’ checking everything out, etc… Direct, refreshing Dharma. And with that strength of inspiration you CAN go away and practice, having developed more confidence both in oneself and in the practice through that teaching. I feel that is the whole point of it all.
  
  I also feel we need to be more careful online as it is easier to come across as unkind with mere words and no supportive relationships to assuage the intensity. I don’t feel that the truth is necessarily a cause of conflict. Talking, talking, talking, yes…but I feel that these online discussions have a function that is not just about ‘truth’ and who holds the most definitive ‘truth’ i.e, experience, study, age, etc but about sharing our experiences. I think many people reading your replies would then avoid Dharma/Buddhist centres. You may reply, ‘so what?’, ‘people should know that the path is difficult’ but if the path is seen as so difficult and the people one meets so definitive in their opinions then most people on a chat group would be put off for a long time.
  
  Yes, this path is long and tough (not the 3 years, 3 months and 3 days the NKT promised it would take!!!!! ) so therefore don’t we need to make bonds of friendship that will last through at least part of that long haul?
  We are all quite fragile, methinks…
- 130
  
  ratikala on June 5, 2012 at 9:02 pm
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  dear author ,
  
  I am understanding everyones veiw point here , but what you say is allso true .
  
  “I think its also important to remember how our image of others is primarily a projected one and, due to the nature of the communication via the web, we tend to hold to one image of another poster rather than assuming fluidity-If I post one critical post, ny hostility is assumed and then each subsequent post is assumed to be an attack and is met with criticism-its a downward spiral.
  Just a thought
  
  Author”
  
  it is natural for a human being to make such assumptions , so yes, we should listen in a calm and objective manner and try not to assume too much .
  
  I think It is allso true to say that we are all at different stages in our practice and it is a common mistake which I think comes from a western upbringing to think that we can treat one emotion with another emotion ,
  we think we can calm down an angry person by being loving and gentle ? it is a nice thought but in practice it dosent allways work…on the otherhand one might resort to treating anger with indignation ….that seldom words either …
  
  I think as tenpel says the whole purpouse of this site is to offer support to eachother , tenpel suggests kindness ,…. I think this is true but kindness comes in many forms , tolerance , concideration , forbearance , rationality , reason and non atatchment .
  
  concidering we are all discussing our fellings after our association with the nkt , it is not irrational to assume that at any point any one of us may feel some negative emotions so we should all be sencitive to this possibility .
  
  this thread did start by talking about ourselves as being ex nkt …..ex nkt as an identity ?
  
  the question raised here is who is imputing that identity ? …… is it us ? are we attatching to an identity ?
  
  are we saying that it was a part of our buddhist education so it will allways be a part of my thinking ?
  
  or are we saying that even though we might be ex nkt we canot quite leave it behind ?
  
  for some it has been easier than for others , and yes , rational or not some are still feeling hurt or confused in some way or another .
  
  allthough there are times when I feel a little cheated , especialy when I read back some comments and it brings certain gripes back to mind , there is allso a great deal to be thankfull for , I learnt a lot , not necicarily what the nkt thought it was teaching , but what I learnt from the experience (A lot about human nature including my own) , it was tough learning , but still if I can turn the possible dissapointment into a lesson , if I can recognise those dissgrunteled feelings and transform them in to the path , then I can maintain an objective and ballanced veiw .
  
  I found that I developed a big sence of humor , I can laugh at my mind and where it has the tendancy to go , so I can hear what you are saying without reading anything into it …..we all go through emotions .. and I laughed at what you said about living with kids ….”we tell it like it is”………and you said in a dharma center one could avoid others , just shut the door ….”(and the delusion festers inside!)”……briliant ! .. then you say …”You certainly have to try your hardest to be what others expect you to be-all holy and peaceful”… ah ha .. this was our mistake ! ……wanting to appear perfect ……ok, no pretences here ! real dharma friends have got more couragre , if any one is feeling angry get it out , before as you say it festers inside … better to get it out because if it does fester inside we come out more dluded than when we went in ……then we accidentaly show our frustration in our dealings with others ….. not good ! It is much better to just say yes I am angry , it is irational but I am angry , if a hug helps then great here have a hug , or a good moan … even a rant …or a screaming fit …..which ever you chose look at it this way one can only hug for so long , moan for so long or scream for so long …..before every one says ok lets have some tea !
  
  but the best favour we can do each other is not to take each others emotions personaly otherwise the ignorance never stops … thats your “downward spiral”
  
  true compassion is tolerant ,…. tollerant with others and tolerant with oneself ! … sometimes I think forget the high ideals …. becoming a bodhisattva ….. just become tolerant … just as much benifit to mankind !………
  
  my thoughts for your thoughts
- 131
  
  Sheila on June 6, 2012 at 2:55 pm
  Reply
  
  Very much agree with your observation that finding levels online takes time, and that it’s vital to be able to say what we mean. I’ve found that in the abuse threads, much of my attempt to say what I mean is (or can be) misconstrued as “uncaring,” when in fact I’m trying to be caring to both sides.
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John Swainson on June 5, 2012 at 4:05 pm
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‘However, popularity is a minor consideration, particularly when compared to matters of truth vs fiction. Hence my tendency to say, not what fits with the view of others, especially when that view totally contradicts what I know to be true’.

Author June 4, 2012 at 8:36 pm

You have the truth?

Master….

Ah, Grasshopper..
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author on June 6, 2012 at 8:34 am
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Come on John-are you saying its possible to know the truth? Do you know the truth about whether the NKT abuses its charitable status?I think you would answer yes, and I would agree. As we get older and more experienced we all learn to discern the truth from falsity-thats not arrogance-Its true!
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author on June 6, 2012 at 9:32 am
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Rati-you have clearly understood the truth-Ah so! Can anyone remember the story about the two mice struggling over the jewel on the meditators shrine-It was the first time he laughed in a LONG time.(Was it Langri Tangpa?) The moral of the story was to have a sense of humor, but what i learned from it is that you can practice for years and gain high levels of realisation and still come across as a right miserable old ba****rd! Zong Rinpoche eg struck me as one of the grumpiest old men I ever met-but he was supposed to be Budhha! So lets not judge on appearances and lets not assume that Buddhahood is all sweetness and light and afternoon tea with cucumber on the lawn-sometimes its like a hockey match!
- 135
  
  Sheila on June 6, 2012 at 1:57 pm
  Reply
  
  I’m pretty sure the distinction is made by proportion of cucumber to hockey puck.
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John Swainson on June 6, 2012 at 12:13 pm
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Hi Author

I presume you meant to say, ‘are you saying its not possible to know the truth?’
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Sheila on June 6, 2012 at 2:20 pm
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author: “So whose ‘opinion’ should we listen to? A few westerners still wet behind the ears with a few minutes of genuine Dharma practice to their name, or the great masters of the past…”

Anyone remember a fond childhood moment when you dug through a dirt mound (or snow mound) toward your friend, at the same time as they dug toward you?

I believe that is a good physical model for the concept of “teaching.” There is the teacher’s action, the student’s, and the question of which direction you both are moving. This means that questions from even the most ignorant beginning student are utterly valid and useful–particularly to that student, at that moment, but also possibly to other students (and even to great masters) listening.

In a class with multiple students, then, and often multiple teachers (sangha members sitting in, etc.) you get in irreplaceably powerful, synergistic learning experience. It is far, far beyond the simple plopping of facts from one human’s brain to another’s.

I absolutely revere many teachers, and revere also the knowledge, of any depths, of fellow students. But it has never been my experience, in class, that any new students is made to feel even the slightest embarrassment for any question. My sense at every moment is that the teacher believes, strongly, that any question, however simple, may be “the” question of the day. He looks around at our faces as he’s answering these sometimes hilarious, and rather shocking questions by drop-in visitors to the class; it seems clearly to me he believes there are genuinely deeper answers to every seemingly-simple question. I love this aspect to Buddhism – the feeling that at any moment, something seemingly simple can actually be very profound. I would write it off as a “Geshe Tenzin” thing, but felt I saw the same phenomenon in Geshe Sopa when he was teaching. There’s just this huge, huge respect for “life as it happens,” as opposed to trying to predetermine how a class will go and limit the questions to “important” ones.

Isn’t that one of the most fundamental psychophysical principles of Buddhist science, that every particle or very moment is technically impregnated with energy and meaning? It doesn’t mean there isn’t such a thing as deep, intricate, complicated philosophy, but rather that deep, intricate, complicated philosophy is literally everywhere, including in a “simple” question.

I say this as someone who struggles daily with the instructions to be kind: I think brushing off kindness as an expendable quality, coming in second or third to wisdom, misses one of Buddhism’s most cherished, central points–and not just the ethical point, but the wisdom point.
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John Swainson on June 6, 2012 at 6:43 pm
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Unless we can agree on a definition of truth there is nothing more to be said. A complex issue.
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Author on June 6, 2012 at 8:36 pm
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Dear Sheila
Id like to answer to your lengthy mail but lifes too short and I would probably fall asleep anyway! I will stick with my teachers instructions on how to practice as he is recognised as capable of knowing me fully by his teachers before him (bur thanks for the advice!) However, as someone who doesnt know you, id suggest less time on the computer and more on the cushion ” Buddhist science”? Is that like prehistoric nuclear physics? And as far as “struggling” goes, remember Trungpa’s words “There is no need to struggle for freedom, the absence of struggle is in itself freedom” The problem with trying to become someone else is it fortifies the ego rather than undermines it., Even trying to be nice
John How about two definitions,one absolute the other relative. Absolute truth, that which appears to mind when investigated, and relative, that which appears to mind when not investigated (I believe the Sakyas go further, breaking relative down into that which appears to a valid cognizer and that which appears to a deluded consciousness

You owe me a pint
- 140
  
  Sheila on June 6, 2012 at 9:06 pm
  Reply
  
  Considering that Buddhist science defines space, time and matter differently than western science (only on the surface; not once you get deeper and closer to theory), yes, Buddhist science.
  
  It would be more accurate to say a traditional western approach to science versus a traditional Buddhist approach to science, given that both groups believe in the same possible end: a provable theory.
- 141
  
  EKC on June 11, 2012 at 6:29 pm
  Reply
  
  Interestingly the Dalai Lama considers himself somewhat scientific and he has said that Buddhism and science are often means to the same end. Citation: Destructive Emotions: A Scienific Dialogue with the Dalai Lama. Can’t remember the editor, but if you google the title you’ll find it.
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author on June 7, 2012 at 9:23 am
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OK lets sort this out. Which scripture mentions this “Buddhist science”? Which great master was renowned as a “scientist”? Of course, one could point to the philosophical tenets of the lower schools (particle theory etc) but they are philosophical ideas.You can certainly fit them into a category of ‘science’ if you wish but Buddhist science per se does not exist. It is a Western (and unfortunately, contemporary Buddhist) categorization that exists in the mind of current commentators; nowhere is such an idea found in the scriptures.Calling something “Buddhist science” [which makes a complete mockery of the phrase “Buddhism AND science) is merely an attempt to pigeon hole an enduring philosophical tradition that dwarfs the ever changing field of intellectual ideas referred to as Western science. In short, the phrase is a misnomer. When science comes up with how to escape suffering and rebirth, give me a ring
- 143
  
  Sheila on June 7, 2012 at 3:04 pm
  Reply
  
  rig pa’i gnas lnga, “The Five Sciences”
  
  1) nang gi rig pa spiritual philosophy. 2) gtan tshigs kyi rig pa dialectics / logic, 3) sgra’i rig pa grammar, 4) gso ba’i rig pa medicine, 5) bzo gnas kyi rig pa mechanical arts and crafts; [TRS 63-4] expl [RY]
  
  In a more overarching sense, there is:
  
  nang pa’i rig gnas, the “inner science of Buddhism.”
  
  Science as a concept in Buddhism is not limited to the physical sciences, as we are more accustomed to doing, but includes spiritual sciences.
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Sheila on June 7, 2012 at 3:14 pm
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Interestingly, in going back further, Buddhism itself was considered a separate science:

“The classical sciences of ancient India (Skt. vidyā) include the five major sciences: art, medicine, logic, grammar, and Buddhism, as well as the five minor sciences: astrology/divination, poetics, prosody, synonymics, and drama.”

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Classical_Sciences
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Sheila on June 7, 2012 at 3:34 pm
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Utterly fascinating couple of pieces on this topic; first, from Vesna Wallace:

“From early times, Indian Buddhists have recognized the relevance of rational and empirical methods in their studies of the natural world and human thought and relations…in Buddhist science there are working hypotheses that are tested by means of experience and that are capable, in principle, of being refuted experientially.” (http://bit.ly/MiOJET)

The next is Loizzo’s “Kālacakra and the Nālandā Tradition: Science, Religion, and Objectivity in Buddhism and the West:”

Click to access Kalachakra.pdf

Loizzo has a fascinating proposal near the end, p. 359, showing the possibilities of a comprehensive social science approach which would include both western and eastern components, for example:

Western Behavioral: family therapy
Western Analytical: interpersonal therapy
Indo-Tibetan Buddhist: giving and taking (tonglen)
Indian Vedist: Bhakti/Seva yoga
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Author on June 7, 2012 at 10:01 pm
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Interestingly, none of the ‘sciences’ you mention are sciences (apart from medicine, which is considered a science in the West) and the commentators you cite Loizzo and Wallace are Western-also the translation you choose (from the Rigpa wiki-written by Westerners) is self affirming-I believe the actual translation of rig pa’i gnas lnga is the 5 branches of knowledge NOT science-get your Chandra Das out and check. Also, while youre there, find the Tibetan word for ‘science’ would you?

Good try Sheila; Maybe get up a little earlier tomorrow! ‘Spiritual science;=oxymoron
- 147
  
  Sheila on June 8, 2012 at 2:40 am
  Reply
  
  It’s the Rangjung Yeshe Dharma Dictionary which defines the science terms I mentioned; entries are generally cited as used in scriptures, other texts, etc.
  
  A big contributor to the dictionary is Gyurme Dorje, Gyurme Dorje who holds a PhD in Tibetan Literature and an MA in Sanskrit with Oriental Studies; he worked a lot on the Encyclopaedic Tibetan-English Dictionary.
  
  There are about 215 entries for “science,” defined often as “rig pa” but also “gnas” and so on. The list itself is fascinating and a great glimpse into the range of disciplines that are considered scientific:
  
  http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=science&go=Go
  
  The RY dictionary itself is a gem – one of the few places online (the only one, practically speaking) where one can search an English term, as opposed to Tibetan.
  
  Certainly “rig pa” does indeed have a wider scope of meaning, not limited to, but definitely including, science.
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Sheila on June 8, 2012 at 2:41 am
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Sorry – wrote “Gyurme Dorje” twice (well, now thrice 😉
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Sheila on June 8, 2012 at 3:17 am
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In The commentary on Mipham’s Sherab Raltri entitled: The Blazing Lights of the Sun and Moon, by Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche, the following paragraph is found:

“Thus there will be the creative arts and crafts [202] and so forth, medicine, grammar, pramana, the study of Buddhism the 5 major sciences dealing with worldly objects. There are also rhetoric, drama and dance, astrology, composition, and poetics, the lesser five sciences. [203] There are these ten sciences of knowables.”

Notes:

202. rig pa’i bzo gnas. ES lists {rig [pa’i] gnas [chen] lnga: the 5 [major] sciences [branches of traditional Buddhist learning] (1) {nang gi rig pa} = spiritual/ buddhist philosophy, 2) {gtan tshigs kyi rig pa} = dialectics/ logic, [here tshad ma, which is equivalent] 3) {sgra’i rig pa} = grammar, 4) {gso ba’i rig pa} = medicine, 5) {bzo gnas kyi rig pa} = mechanical arts and crafts]].

203. rig gnas chung ba lnga: the 5 minor sciences [[= *{rig pa’i gnas lnga} snyan ngag dang, mngon brjod, sdeb sbyor, zlos gar, skar rtsis te lnga’o]].

I don’t know who the translator is…trying to find out.
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Author on June 8, 2012 at 8:57 am
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The thing about Western scence, apart from the fact that unlike the enduring principles of the Dharma it seems to change its mind on its absolute principless every five minutes, is it is entirely limited in terms of where its greatest proponents are willing to venture, since they are limited to a materialist concept of the nature of reality.The whole universe according to Western science has a materiall cause. First it was elements, then atoms, then protons, then quarks and so on and so on, constantly searching for a fundamental material cause for things. That the material universe could be a product of karma and mind is an iinpossibility in their minds-for a scientist, it has to be physical (maybe PLUS mind, but nevertheless, fundamentally physically caused) Since this contradicts the Buddhas view the two are ultimately incompatable, like thinking a Christian can take refuge in the Three Jewels when one of the fundamental precepts of refuge is not to take refuge in worldly (ie creator) gods. I suspect some here are both Christian and Buddhist and the desire to show the existence of Buddhist ‘science’ is merely a manifestation of that fundamemtal contradiction in their view. Do you have a string Christian background Sheila?
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Author on June 8, 2012 at 8:58 am
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PS Not that it is possible to be both Christian and Buddhist
- 152
  
  EKC on June 11, 2012 at 6:35 pm
  Reply
  
  Interesting, if you go to Amazon, put Buddhism and Christianity in the search box, you’ll get several titles of books by people who consider themselves Christian Buddhists (or vice versa). Also several Buddhist-Christian dialogues examining both similarities and differences and how each approach can facilitate the other. Several, more scholarly, books explore Buddhist and Christian views on things such as emptiness. It would seem the two have much to offer each other, and the Dalai Lama has said that in a Christian country it may be more beneficial to practice Christianity than Buddhism.
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Author on June 8, 2012 at 9:00 am
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““The classical sciences of ancient India (Skt. vidyā)” Vidya+ ‘knowledge’, not ‘science’
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Author on June 8, 2012 at 10:02 am
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http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/VerhoevenBuddhismScience.htm

Sorry for the multiple posts

In 1989, Venerable Walpola Rahula, a Theravadin monk from Sri Lanka, also warned that daily life is being permeated by science. He cautioned, “We have almost become slaves of science and technology; soon we shall be worshipping it.” His comments come well into the final decades of the twentieth century, when many people had in effect turned science into a religious surrogate. The Venerable monk observed, “Early symptoms are that they tend to seek support from science to prove the validity of our religions.” Walpola Rahula elaborated on this point:

We justify them [i.e. religions] and make them modern, up-to-date, respectable, and accessible. Although this is somewhat well intentioned, it is ill-advised. While there are some similarities and parallel truths, such as the nature of the atom, the relativity of time and space, or the quantum view of the interdependent, interrelated whole, all these things were developed by insight and purified by meditation.

Rahula’s critique goes to the heart of the matter: the capitulation of religion to scientific positivism; the yielding of almost all competing schemes of values to the scientific juggernaut. Huston Smith, the eminent scholar on the worlds religions, recently said that the weakness of modern religions in the West stems from their successful accommodation to culture. The contribution that Buddhism and other religions can make to the spiritual crisis facing modern society, therefore, may not lie in their compatibility with science, but in their ability to offer something that science cannot.

More importantly, as Rahula argues, Dharma, or abiding spiritual truths, were discovered without the help of any external instrument. Rahula concluded, “It is fruitless, meaningless to seek support from science to prove religious truth. It is incongruous and preposterous to depend on changing scientific concepts to prove and support perennial religious truths.”
- 155
  
  fleadle on January 28, 2013 at 9:13 am
  Reply
  
  I know a scientist who developed faith in Dharma because of how close science had come to BUddha’s understanding on emptiness, yet Buddha understood 2500 years before science and he understands the application unlike scientific world. Comparing the two is not such a stretch. If you don’t loosen your grip on scriptural authority your end up as closed to others wisdom as some NKT teachers and that would be tragic. We all have the potential for great wisdom, if we feel only Buddha had the ability to impart wisdom we do yourself and other’s a great disservice.
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John Swainson on June 8, 2012 at 3:50 pm
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Dear Author

You might have to say a bit more to earn a pint. I am a Yorkshireman…
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Sheila on June 8, 2012 at 5:06 pm
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My instinct is to widen “science” in the direction of the Eastern definitions, rather than force the Eastern traditions into the narrowing, modern Western definition. The Western definition used to be far broader: “science,” c.1300, “knowledge (of something) acquired by study,” also “a particular branch of knowledge,” from O.Fr. science, from L. scientia “knowledge.”

There is often greater disagreement between two Western scientists on a particular theory than there is between one of them and an Eastern investigator, so it doesn’t trouble me to suggest that our use of “science” here include multiple definitions.

I believe, though, that good science, even by a very modern, traditionally Western definition, allows for far more flexibility and possibility than its practitioners grant it.
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Sheila on June 8, 2012 at 5:56 pm
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A great example of the difficulty in confining science to what the public generally (and often mistakenly) feels is “hard science,” “real science,” etc., is summed up in the following opening statement in the piece, “Cartography between Science, Art and Politics” (Eyal Weizman Speaking at Goldsmiths)”

“Maps are not the same thing as territory. At best they are only a representation of reality on the ground. Maps merely reveal what map-makers or their superiors want to show.”

Pure science should weed out the “want” part, but often the desires of the scientist overcome purity.

“Hard science” for example tells us that Avastin is more effective on stage four lung cancer than Herceptin, because studies have been funded which reach that conclusion; neither of those studies mentions green tea, which may be a more important factor in cancer prevention or reduction than either of the other drugs. It’s not that green tea can’t be scientifically proven effective, but simply that there aren’t as many people studying green tea.

The medical community’s conclusion then is that Avastin is the way to go, based on “science,” when in fact that is based only on limited studies which take almost nothing else into account. That all-important “scientific fact” is appropriate in the field of “Avastin vs. Herceptin,” but not nearly as appropriate in the field of “lung cancer.”

That’s the consistent error we make in grasping for “science” – we fail to take into account the genuine field, however narrow, to which it applies.
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author on June 8, 2012 at 10:06 pm
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Sorry Sheila,bit too much non-Buddhist mumbo jumbo n there for me. It may well be the wish of Westerners to rationalise and categorize the Dharma but, speaking in my capacity as the self appointed representative of Tibetans in this situation THANKS BUT NO THANKS-WE DONT NEED YOUR HELP Lets face it, you were still dragging women around by their hair when the Buddha worked out the truth-without the aid of the science of ‘civilization’.We were around before science got going and we’ll probably be around after youve blown yourselves up with it!

PS What was the Tibetan for science?
- 160
  
  Sheila on June 9, 2012 at 8:32 pm
  Reply
  
  Author, my point was that Western science would do well to (re)turn toward the broader definition of “science.” It’s not that Eastern and Western were that different, but that the Western working definition has narrowed over time. Some of that is accidental–test tubes make for better graphics than a philosophical point, and we’re a very media-graphic oriented society.
  
  Tibetan has translated the Sanskrit term for science in multiple ways, to include the terms already mentioned, “rig pa” and “gnas,” and often “rig gnas.” A more exhaustive list is here:
  
  http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=science&go=Go
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John Swainson on June 9, 2012 at 10:01 am
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Hi Author

‘How about two definitions, one absolute the other relative. Absolute truth, that which appears to mind when investigated, and relative, that which appears to mind when not investigated’.

To which of the above do you lay claim when saying…

‘Hence my tendency to say, not what fits with the view of others, especially when that view totally contradicts what I know to be true’?
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Sheila on June 9, 2012 at 8:42 pm
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I should at that “rig” is often used in modern contexts, for example “social science” is generally give as “spyi tshogs tshan rig.”
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author on June 9, 2012 at 11:13 pm
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John-I dunno-have you been trawling through the drivel I write looking for contradictions?There are none. Oh yes there are. Oh no, there arent.
Sheila, your absolutely right, contemporary translations use rig for science-but rig is knowledge or awareness in Tibetan-have you found the Tibetan word for science yet-you know, science,
gnas is abiding (zhi gnas) so you and you r contemporary referents are translating ‘abiding in knowledge/awareness’ as science. They arent the same. Those who abide in awareness (rig gnas pa) are yogis, not scientists
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author on June 9, 2012 at 11:22 pm
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PS Sheila-this discussion is wasting valuable time-I dont care about translations, just get tired of Westerners going on about how important it is that we see the parallels between science and Buddhism and about how we need to mix the two to ‘improve’ that which was already perfect. As far as language goes, I couldnt give a flying………….But try and damage my precious faith with the science of the juvenile and psychotic merchants of death of Western ‘civilization’ and I come out finding!Science may wish to assimilate Dharma but Dharma sure as hell dont need goldurned science

Peace out-if you leave me alone!
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  Sheila on June 10, 2012 at 4:19 pm
  Reply
  
  It’s the various school districts (Tibetan, Chinese and Indian) who’ve chosen “rig” as a science term, so considering the paucity of agreement between those societies on other things, I think it’s safe to say “rig” is widely accepted as having at least some connotation of science 😉
  
  It would be interesting to see which modern Tibetan textbook first used it, though – always one of the big challenges of translating a traditional culture & language.
  
  I think it’s a fascinating topic, but understand if you don’t wish to discuss further…just wanted to point out it wasn’t Westerners choosing “rig” as a science term.
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Sheila on June 10, 2012 at 4:22 pm
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And big thanks to Tenpel (and other readers!) for tolerating this diversion.
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Author on June 10, 2012 at 4:49 pm
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“just wanted to point out it wasn’t Westerners choosing “rig” as a science term” In other words then, its non-english speakers, attemptng to find a suitable translation to fit the Western phrase, ‘science’ So there’s no Tibetan phrase which translaites it and those who are attemting to fit Eastern religious thought into Western scientific and linguistic boundaries have chosen to use the term ‘knowledge/awareness’ to translate science. They’re wrong
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  Sheila on June 10, 2012 at 7:51 pm
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  The chief problem is not agreeing on which of the many Tibetan terms to use; the chief problem is agreeing, in the first place, on which definition of the English term we’re using. There are over 200 entries in the Rangung Yeshe dictionary which translate the English term “science,” and these translations are taken from multiple historical texts, as translated by multiple Tibetan, Chinese, Indian and Western translators. Safe to say, there seems to be consensus that it is possible to translate between these languages effectively; in the end any definition is ultimately a matter of consensus. You are absolutely free to have yours – that is the nature of language!
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Sheila on June 10, 2012 at 7:53 pm
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I remember being quite disappointed when an Aramaic scholar quietly pointed out several years ago that the old Aramaic adage, “It’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven,” was actually “It’s easier for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle…” 🙂

I hold fast to the camel image, out of sheer nostalgia.
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author on June 10, 2012 at 9:06 pm
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Having suffered severe constipation after a recent injury/medication, either seems appropriate.
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John Swainson on June 11, 2012 at 7:21 am
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Hi Author

Didn’t look for contradictions as your approach has been consistent throughout. I asked a question based on two definitions of truth which you provided.

Hope your system has sorted itself out and that you have found, using another ‘appropriate’ biblical reference, ‘the peace’…….’ that passeth all understanding’.
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author on June 11, 2012 at 2:33 pm
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Well, I ve found the peace that passed something
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Sheila on June 11, 2012 at 3:02 pm
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Ouch, author, hope you are feeling better! That is a miserable place to be. Mentioning this only because I haven’t heard anyone else bring it up, but drinking different hot liquids (have a cuppa joe, then a cuppa tea) for some reason works well for me. Don’t know if your medication forbids caffeine. Sure hope you can get some relief.

I was reading through the OP again, and would add that for ex-NKT-ers reading other ex-[religion] experiences, it might be good to ad ex-Mormon accounts, because of the similar way Mormon society controls its members.

I think when one is becoming “ex” something, one absolutely needs to talk to people of ones own faith/sect who have left, but once you get past the insecurity of leaving your particular religion, it can be really nourishing to realize this is a wider human experience not limited to one sect.

There are many, many resources for this, including: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exmormon/

That group specifically avoids doctrinal discussions; hard to find an Adventist one that avoids those, lol. We are all about the doctrine, it seems.
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author on June 11, 2012 at 4:00 pm
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Agreed-but the Dharma can be enough in itself-deep immersion in that doesnt just help us see through one self-image but all of them Im not being cynical, I just think the Dharma is the perfect remedy, the universal panacea=Why concentrate on dealing with one mask when we can drop them all simultaneously??
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  EKC on June 11, 2012 at 7:54 pm
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  Perhaps because not everyone can? Maybe even most people can’t?
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EKC on June 11, 2012 at 6:42 pm
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Reading a book on 4000 years of history of science at the mo, and it seems at the beginning the pursuit of science was inseparable from the pursuit of religion, all were looking for truth and most were using a mixture of what we would now call science, religion and traditional assumptions. It would therefore appear that what we currently separate out as pure science may well just be a current trend and these definitions will change over and over as societies evolve.

If you need the book name for citations let me know, I’m lying down with my laptop over me and don’t want to get up to look for the book right now.
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EKC on June 11, 2012 at 9:02 pm
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Thinking on the original theme, “Ex-NKT as an identity”, a few thoughts.

First off, I’m surprised it has taken so long for someone to raise the notion that Buddhists are trying to do away with identities.

And I have two thoughts on that, related to why I wrote the essay, and then made it public.

The first is that not all who have left NKT remain Buddhist. And a problem with all ex-NKT internet spaces for them is that are dominated by a lot of Buddhist talk and assumptions that Dharma is what all ex-NKT want. I don’t think that’s true – there are many ex-NKT who leave Dharma/Buddhism altogether and many others who are attracted back to the Dharma but cannot use it due to the ex-NKT residual effects. There really needs to be space where ex-NKT can be just people, not failing Buddhists, and where issues can be dealt with with no suggestion whatsoever that these people ought to be using the Dharma to solve them. I can see this can make things a lot worse, and there’s a case for even saying many ex-NKT should resolve their issues first, then come back to Dharma if they want to, as otherwise it’s all too intermixed and unsolvable. This opens a whole can of worms I’d love to see discussed, about what one can rely on while one cannot rely on the Dharma, and much more.

The second thought is that for those who do remain (or become) Buddhist surely it’s not healthy to try to cast off identities before resolving them. It’s the whole issue around using ideas of emptiness before one really can, and that things still need to be dealt with in the everyday world by the everyday person who presents there.

It’s interesting that some Buddhist groups – the FPMT comes to mind especially – have a reputation for taking on ex-NKT, yet do little to specifically address ex-NKT issues. There seems to be a pride in picking up NKT’s discarded, but actually little to justfy that pride as we’re then left to sink or swim.

Anyway, just ideas I’m throwing around before bed; respectful compassionate replies only, please!
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  LazyBuddhist on June 12, 2012 at 4:06 am
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  In my experience leaving the NKT, the one thing I realized, even after I felt betrayed by my teacher and guru, was that I still had faith in the three jewels. It was a wonderful realization that I truly had refuge – not in my teacher, not in Geshe Kelsang, and certainly not the NKT as an organization – but in those things that would not let me down. I was also fortunate in that one of the first teachers that I sat with after my departure was one who encouraged us to let go of our identities as Buddhists. He could be quite ruthless and quite funny about how we accumulate all these things – accouterments, empowerments, rituals, etc – and think those make us “spiritual”. Yet, he was also very kind when I spoke to him of my NKT past. He advised that I remember Geshe-la with gratitude for introducing to me to the dharma and for helping me (no matter how painful) be where I am today, but that I needed to make a spiritual U-turn. And while I wasn’t exactly sure what he meant (his Tibetan accent was quite thick), I felt absolved and validated in some weird way.
  
  Shortly thereafter I sent an email to a local FPMT class regarding an upcoming class series on Vajrayogini. They responded I was welcome to come to the class, but I had to officially renounce Geshe-la and take refuge vows with their teacher. And while my relationship with Geshe-la and the NKT was over, I was completely turned off by their reply. I didn’t want to be involved in that battle whatsoever.
  
  As I stated many many posts above, I’m primarily practicing in the Theravadan tradition. Whenever I reveal my NKT past, I cringe a bit, fearing judgement or rejection. So, it was refreshing when my current teacher hadn’t even heard of the NKT. He said he’s known many many people (himself included) who come to the Theravada after a bad experience with a Tibetan tradition. For me, it’s been a very healing place and while my studies in the NKT have certainly helped with my dharma understanding, the practice and the relationship with the teacher is very different, so rarely do I run into those scary shadows of the NKT.
  - 179
    
    tenpel on June 12, 2012 at 4:17 am
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    Thank you for sharing this.
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    EKC on June 12, 2012 at 9:28 am
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    LazyBuddhist: “He advised that I remember Geshe-la with gratitude for introducing to me to the dharma and for helping me (no matter how painful) be where I am today”
    
    I’ve seen/heard that advice given a lot but I have to say I just can’t do it, and for me the more I’m advised to the more of a barrier to accessing the Dharma it becomes. Am I the only one?
    - 181
      
      tenpel on June 12, 2012 at 10:00 am
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      No. You’re not alone in this EKC.
      
      The ability to look back with gratitude depends on many things. One of the factors is how deeply one was involved and how much one has been harmed. If one has been really harmed on a deeper level, this needs quite a lot of time for recovery, and this recovery starts, maybe after some years to feel the anger, because one has been betrayed. So there is a gradual healing process which can take years. And I think it is important to respect this. A healing process can not be forced. It needs time, acceptance, patience and love and compassion for oneself. The healing process is also often blocked very much for Ex-NKT because there is an attitude one learns on the way with NKT that is to suppress or neglact/reject negative feelings up to the point where one thinks so badly about negative emotions, like anger, that one fears them and the energy is bound to an internal struggle with those feelings, and on the other hand one might fear to acknowledge that they are just there. A post NKT time can be very very hard.
      
      The following links might help a bit:
      http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/giambalvo_carol_postcult_problems.htm
      http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/singer_margaret_postcult.htm
      
      I remember a person writing that after 7 years of having disconnected from NKT he is still in a state of confusion …
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John Swainson on June 12, 2012 at 11:57 am
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Hi EKC

Remember Geshla with gratitude!
As you know I spent a lot of time working for the good of the organisation. When I first met the NKT it was a revelation. Here was a method of dealing with life I could accept. Subsequent experience led me to see the discrepency between what was happening in the Gompa and outside. I have no doubt that for those who wish to follow the Buddhist ‘path’ there will be satisafaction but not for me. Much of what is taught about daily living is useful but I cannot work with the whole package.

There was indecision when it came to where next after the closure of LDC. Do I give it a rest or go to another group? The FPMT saw me at their doors for a while but there was too much similarity with NKT as far as ritual was concerned.

So what I am left with is an aversion to that which was a large part of my life. You cannot forget what you know. You can deal with it but you don’t forget.

Gratitude? No.

Gratitude for overseeing the development of an organisation about which there is so much controversy? No.

It has been said many times by his followers that all the problems have been created by those around him and his only wish is for the happiness of all. It is as if people cannot let go of the wish to believe in his purity and blame the weaknesses of others.

If he is in charge then why does he not act to remedy the situations as they arise?
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author on June 12, 2012 at 10:51 pm
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Having met, and respected KG early on (1979), I was shocked and upset when he did what he did at the Priory. it seems to me that he was a good man, with good intentions but, due to knowing nothing about history and the other sects, he gradually became crazy. IMO it is a clear case of demonic possession, just as happened with Pabongka,w ho was a great lama in his early life but changed and became deviant in the latter part due to DS worship

If there is one piece of advice I would remind people of its Shantideva’s instruction on becoming like a piece of wood. it doesnt resolve things but it gives spac, which is a good place to start!
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author on June 13, 2012 at 5:35 am
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You can then add an ‘e’ to it and see truth itself!
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EKC on June 13, 2012 at 2:53 pm
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Just checking if this will go through to the site; I’ve answered Tenzin’s comment three times now and each time I click send and it vanishes. Must be just me as other comments have got through in between.
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EKC on June 13, 2012 at 2:59 pm
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Looks like it’s working, I’ll try answering slightly differently and see if not duplicating the links Tenzin posted helps.

Tenzin, thank you for the links to the post-cult site. I found the first one especially useful. I wish there were more groups available and more post-cult counsellors. The forums tend to end up being a morass of everyone’s issues with little in the way of solutions or how to reconcile with yourself, and people getting frustrated with each other for failing to be helped by the same things.

I liked the comment that in such a group at least no one looks at you like you’ve got two heads. It’s so impossible for anyone who’s not been there to understand. The bit about the embarassment factor is helpful too – the inability to explain why you joined and why you did what you did while a member.

I’ve bookmarked the link for further perusal.
- 187
  
  tenpel on June 13, 2012 at 9:09 pm
  Reply
  
  Yes EKC, its true, only those gone through it may understand …
  
  (I assume the comment didn’t pass because WordPress has a spam plugin and that doesn’t accept more than one link or so – except inserted by the blog owner. I will check if I can switch off this restriction.)
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  Sheila on June 13, 2012 at 11:27 pm
  Reply
  
  One thing that helps me with thinking of why we were in cults is to realize that we were trapped in them for good reasons–meaning, because we have good, trusting natures, and think the best of people, and therefore believed what we were hearing. It is often the case that the person saying those things also believes what they’re saying, so they also are not necessarily doing it with ill-intention.
  
  It’s *okay* to trust in human beings’ good nature–in fact, it’s ideal. Sometimes trust is betrayed, but we don’t need to think of ourselves as “dumb” for having believed it. I say that as someone who now looks back in utter bewilderment as to what I used to believe!
  
  Step far, far away from your situation and look at it from there: think of all the thousands and thousands of people who have gotten sucked in to this or that environment (not just cults, but obsessed sports groups, social groups, politics, etc.) and realize this is pretty much human nature, getting sucked into one thing or another, and occasionally becoming too wrapped up in it. I know it’s harder with religion, because it’s at the very root of our selves for spiritually-minded people.
  
  If you believe in karma, or fate, or higher purpose, it also really helps to think, “Maybe there’s a reason I went through that,” even if that simply means you choose to use your unfortunate experience to help others.
  
  And when all else fails, remember that this will absolutely pass; at the moment you first leave, it seems hopeless and overwhelming and utterly depressing and frightening, but I guarantee you that ten years from now, you will feel better about it. It’s like a bad breakup–utterly impossible to think you can ever get over it, but you can.
  
  If you can find a group of people to meet with, like physically meet with in the same room, that is SO healing. Nothing on earth helped me more than talking to other ex-Adventists.
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    tenpel on June 13, 2012 at 11:54 pm
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    Thank you Sheila.
    Yes, one needs a basic confidence or faith in others, to function well (in Wikipedia the principle is called “assume good faith”) and it is true, persons who betray others in spiritual matters are often quite convinced of the rightness of their actions and they are much convinced that what they are doing is not only very good but excellent. It is this pre-faith into others which is exploited by beguilers and it is that which makes one vulnerable of becoming a pray for wrong spiritual teachers.
    
    Personally I still would call this pre-faith a type of naivety which might have its function but the naivety which made us a pray to be misled by others is the determining factor in us which must be overcome, I think, otherwise its just a matter of time to be in the hands of the next abusive or misleading teacher.
    
    I also agree, that a group of people who have similar experience is extremely healing. I had this good luck and lived with them even in a community.
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      EKC on June 14, 2012 at 12:05 pm
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      Yes, and that’s why it can be so hard to trust again having left a cult. I have to admit that the other Buddhist groups I’ve checked out I’ve gone into almost assuming there must be something dodgy going on, I just have to find it. Rather different to the open minded enquiring way I first approached NKT.
      
      I have another question I’m wondering about, mainly for ex-NKT, but likely relevant to ex-members of other cults too. When I read through the list of things that make a group into a cult, and the abuses that take place in cults, I tend to focus far more on what didn’t happen in NKT and then doubt myself as to whether it can really be called a cult or not. On one level I know that’s kind of crazy, the group does damage and fits enough of the criteria, but maybe it’s almost a way of blaming myself rather than the group, a remnant of group brainwashing, and also the difficulty with NKT that it’s so like mainstream Dharma that it’s hard to validate the Dharma while not vaildating the NKT, if that makes sense? Anyone else find this? Part of me, perhaps, still wants to believe the NKT dream we’ve discussed on this thread.
      - 191
        
        tenpel on June 14, 2012 at 12:20 pm
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        exactly, we have a problem to put trust again in others. we are damaged, and often, we also project our NKT experience onto other groups. i found also in the beginning FPMT very similar to NKT but only gradually I realised there are some similarities but the basic setting is distinct different and very healthy compared to NKT.
        
        i remember that i had to do analysis about the faults of NKT again and again to convince myself that it was correct to go. there was a deep rooted doubt that it might have been a mistake. the doubt was removed by a Nyingma lama who gave a direct teaching about teachers which are to be abandoned. the nkt has a culture that undermines the own intuition and self-confidence, that blames oneself for the faults one is seeing (arguing they come only from the own impure mind) and many other means which undermine one’s critical and intelligence faculty. Yes, I think the struggle is a “remnant of this brainwashing” (though, brainwashing as well as cult is a very controversial term, however, if one takes this term just as a name for undermined discriminative capacity due to being overwhelmed with concepts and beliefs that undermines one’s discrimination, I think the use is ok for a forum discussion.)
        
        Yes, like also most of the devotees of Shoko Asahara want still to believe in his supposed sainthood, most ex-NKT will try to uphold such a belief also in KG or NKT. Its a part of the heritage, the views and dynamics one has learned within NKT. That’s why a mental de-programming, which means to question everything one has learned there and a readiness and courage to start anew might be crucial for a new beginning. Alex Berzin used the term (in another context) “to reboot”. I like this, after NKT, I think, one has to reboot, and one must understand and learn from the past to avoid the same traps. The NKT Dharma is not really mainstream, the more one studies and learns outside of NKT the more one will see this. Carol and I found this really shocking, the differences there are …
      - 192
        
        Sheila on June 14, 2012 at 4:42 pm
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        One reason it’s so hard to leave cults, and to decide whether it’s fair to label them cults, is because they almost always do contain good things as well as bad. Adventists, for example, are some of the absolutely most gentle people I know, and I miss that environment now that I’m “out in the world.”
        
        When wondering whether to blame yourself, you can perhaps look at the really large number of other people who have left, and the high percentage of those people who have felt they were harmed by aspects of NKT. The numbers are quite high (for Adventism, too); right off the bat, that is pretty solid evidence that far too much harm takes place within the NKT environment–even thought there are good things, too. Safety and happiness in any religions/social group (and I supposed life itself) is really about “relative harm” as opposed to “harm.” If you as an ex-NKT-er felt you experienced a lot of harm, compared to say, your friends in the Nyingma tradition, it’s worth considering that NKT may have a problem.
      - 193
        
        ratikala on June 14, 2012 at 6:43 pm
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        dear ekc ,
        
        you say ” hard to valididate the dharma without valididating the nkt, if that makes any sence ?”
        
        oh yes I understand exactly what you mean , out of love for the dharma one wants to respect and love any kind teacher who expounds that precious dharma , I remember reading early on before meeting the nkt that one should regard as a teacher anyone who has taught you even a single line of dharma !, and the nkt teaches that such oppertunitys are hard to find and that we should seize the oppertunity to practice and develop bhodhichita….so we have the tendancy to trust and having no comparison to hold the nkt against , it is hard for us to make sound judgement .
        
        for years I felt very un easy about the fact that I misstrusted a teacher who out of kindness had devoted his life to the propogation of the buddha dharma .
        
        I made excuses to my self even after leaving that geshe la was ignorant of the possibly negative side of what appeared to be a bunch of blissed out devotees .and I forgave the bad behavior of some members of the comunity , because I felt that they had been sucked in to something which made them feel good about themselves (which is only natural) but not what I felt was the right way to be practicing dharma .
        
        I felt very guilty for feeling so critical and in ways ashamed of myself for my lack of gratitude .
        
        I returned to solitary study of very simple basic buddhism reading the eight fold path over and over again trying so see where I had gone wrong . working alone was the best thing I could have done as I simply decided that in this degenerate age I needed to work much harder on the basic foundations of my practice , and decided to turn what I had experienced into a part of my path . I looked clearly at human nature and felt that what I had experienced was what happens when you allow people to go in at a level way above their heads , it is natural for any beginner to want to start with the fancy practice go straight in at an advanced level , and to think that they can become a buddha for the benifit of all !. It is a high ideal and very attraactive , much more attractive than perfecting ones a b c , but by practicing my a b c and developing compassion for others I could accept their intentions as good , but be under no illusion as to the dangerous mind set that they had fostered …..but even still I felt that I may be deluding myself in thinking that I saw things clearly when so many others could not ???
        
        however I feel that what happened with their rejection of the dalai lama in the early days of the dorje shugden dispute did me a huge favor in that I had no choice but to distance myself , however it is still a sadness as with any loss , one greaves for the bubble which burst ! …. now there is a lesson in non attatchment !
        
        but still sometimes I feel confused , …. when I do I simply return to the eight fold path … ah , simplicity , …bliss !
        
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        EKC on June 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm
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        Thanks, Ratikala. One of the things I’ve never really done is go right back to the basics of Buddhism like that, tended to feel (in typical post-NKT way I guess) that I must at least be doing Lamrim or there’s no point in bothering. It’s a good idea for direction in the “where do I go from here” sense. To combine the simplicity, directness and real world action of Quaker practice with the four noble truths and the eightfold path might well be the way to go.
        
        As you say, simplicity:bliss. So easy to miss that completely by laying on complexity after complexity.
        
        195
        
        ratikala on June 17, 2012 at 8:36 am
        
        dear EKC
        
        one thing I felt after leaving the nkt behind and subsequently trying to find other tibetan traditions to practice with , was that it is a problem prehaps prevelant in the west is that the ego will attatch to the idea of a high practice , and will skip the preliminarys , ….its not your fault to be thinking ..” I must at least be doing Lamrim or there’s no point in bothering “….that is the way it is enthusiasticaly taught , but without the foundation of right thought , …. it can all go wrong … as we have seen it do !
        
        better that we learn to understand ourselves and have a good grounding before we think to go further ,
        it makes fo better ballanced human beings who can make slow but steady and solid progress .
        
        best wishes
        
        196
        
        author on June 19, 2012 at 5:27 pm
        
        Rati
        Right thought is an aspect of the Theravada practice of the 8fold path. Lam Rim is of the Tibetan Mahayana tradition and already encompasses the practices equivalent to those contained the 8fold path within the teachings designed for inferior and mediocre practitioners according to Atisha’s classification. To suggest that we base Lam Rim on the 8fold path is therefore to suggest we engage in the same level of practice twice. Please try not to confuse the practices of the Theravada and the Mahayana-although equivalent in terms of outcome, they should not be confused as being of the same path, or as one preceding or validating the other. Your comment would seem to demonstrate an only partial knowledge concerning the nature of these two traditions
        
        197
        
        ratikala on June 19, 2012 at 10:05 pm
        
        dear author
        
        when buddha taught it there was neither theravada nor mahayana ,
        
        in my humble opinion one can derive more benifit from simple practice than thinking that one can run before one can walk . the eight fold path is such a core peice of the buddhas teachings I canot think that anyone would not joyfully embrace it .
        
        this attitude of elitism has done the mahayana tradition a great diss service , and i do not want to go in to the lesser vheicle , greater vheicle arguement as there are good buddhists and poor buddhists in both traditions .
        
        I am saddened by your responce and have no further comment to make except please do not shorten my name, it is my initiated name so please show some respect .
        
        many thanks .
        
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        author on June 20, 2012 at 7:31 am
        
        The purpose of right thought is to generate the intention to abandon negative thoughts and action and cultivate positive ones. Meditation on karma and the sufferings of samsara, as prescribed in the Lam Rim, produces the same. Both trainings are equally the Buddhas teaching This is not elitism. Your response is irrational, your demand for respect speaks reems
        
        199
        
        EKC on June 20, 2012 at 7:51 am
        
        It would seem odd to suggest there is a contradiction between practising the LamRim and the Eightfold Path.
        
        I would think it is more about what some traditions emphasise over others – and that whole bewildering thing that whenever one goes to a Tibetan Buddhist teaching one is told, this is the basis of the path, this is most important, this you must practise.
        
        I don’t want to argue over it either, these are just some thoughts to add to the mix.
        
        Personally I found LamRim hard because much of it is beyond my level, which gets discouraging, so something simple and foundational makes sense to me. One step at a time, and focus on that.
        
        200
        
        Carol on June 20, 2012 at 8:15 pm
        
        Author,
        
        In all these discussions you seem to prioritise a need to show your knowledge, which appears to be academic and thorough, though I am sure there will still valid views which are not the same as yours. But showing your knowledge and frequently telling others that they do not possess what you possess seems unkind and difficult for others. Here we are trying to find a path through very complicated and horrible experiences within Dharma. Your admonitions do not help us. For me, they remind me of the ‘superior attitude’ that many of the ‘senior’ NKT ordained would have. If we are too ignorant of Buddhist history, study and complexity, then we merit patience, in reems, from you. We are, after all, exNKTers and the NKT taught nothing of comparative Buddhism or history, etc.
        
        One of the most helpful things I have been doing since leaving the NKT is reading the history, sociology and comparative studies of Buddhism to give me some perspective but not many people can do this and certainly this cannot be done in a hurry. There is an overwhelming quantity of information and it feels upsetting to realise we have missed out on so much. The NKT explained this by saying we had to ‘practise’ not study….
        
        I have found the Dalai Lama’s works to be very helpful in that context. Perhaps you could be like the Dalai Lama with us – very gentle – and assume we are ‘missing links’ and offer us, for example, internet sites or books that can give a perspective with the good humour we need. This is not an academic discussion group.
        
        201
        
        author on June 20, 2012 at 8:46 pm
        
        Thank you Carol for your very personal advice/teaching. However, I will continue to correct factual inaccuracies as I see fit since. if we do not, we are assisting in the destruction of the Dharma
        
        . I am afraid I am not a practitioner of the methods you prescribe (As you will have heard HH recently, he only developed the compassionate attitude in his later years, so I am in good company) and am a great believer in being what one is instead of trying to be somebody one is not not-actually that sits quite well in the traditions I follow and with the advice of the masters, though it may not conform to the misconceived ideas of what constitutes Dharma according to younger Western neophytes
        
        I do not recall telling others that I possess what they do not (please cite where) and if that is what NKT superiors happen to do, so be it., though I must say II find the attempt to associate me with these negative archetypes a rather simplistic and puerile tactic of divisiveness
        
        You may not consider this an academic discussion group. Others may. I would suggest it is not a group therapy session or a ‘get it off your chest’ space either, but that would be arrogant of me since I am not the blogs owner. One thing can appear as many things to the eyes of different perceivers
        
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        tenpel on June 20, 2012 at 9:14 pm
        
        Dear author and Carol,
        thank you both for your posts. I take Carol’s reminder and request to be patient and kind seriously. I don’t know how often this has been requested. For me a good discussion atmosphere on the blog is of primary importance, of second importance is to give reliable information in the comment sections. Help is based on a good warm-hearted relationship where people can feel save. Good teachers from whom one can learn the most are not necessarily those who have the best knowledge but those who are able to relate in a good way with others. If people can relate good to a person who has the potential to help, them can be helped. To give you an example from personal experience:
        
        I had a pupil I cared for, helping him with school and on a psychological level. I went there up to four-five times a week. Later some problems arose, and I asked my chief, a well educated brilliant psychologist for advice. He listened. He listened for 20 minutes about the problems I described. Then he said: “I understood you. But I can not feel the boy. Where is the boy? You only speak about your problems. You have lost contact with the boy. Get in touch with the boy.” That was it. So I had to restart the relationship, then everything worked excellent. I had to excuse, to correct myself. After some time the boy asked me to help him to prepare for a chemistry exam, a subject I don’t know well at all. I refused and said I will send another teacher who can teach this subject, he insisted that I do it. So I did it rather bad than good. Yet he got mark 2 with his chemistry exam–which was usually not his level. Why? A good and kind relation is the fuel for learning. If there is a patient, kind attitude which feels with the other person one can help if not it will be questionable if there is a learning process.
        
        Another example: a girl, also school/some sort of psychological help. Things went wrong … When I asked her what the persons make different with whom she can relate well and from whom she accepts help and support she said: “They understand me, and accept me as I am.” What a great lesson.
        
        So since people are posting here who are damaged by NKT and other controversial groups, a compassionate attitude should be present or it were better not to post. People don’t need “top-down” explanations, but listening, understanding and a supportive, encouraging attitude which sees the good, wise things in what they are saying.
        
        This is my opinion and view.
        I do honestly apologize to all commenters who feel attacked by approved posts because I lacked time to go through them before approval.
        I have no idea how to deal with this because I just don’t have so much time … Please EKC, Ratikala, Drolma, Riger Lily and others, if you have suggestions. Please let me know.
        
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        ratikala on June 20, 2012 at 9:33 pm
        
        dear carol ,
        
        do not worry about what you might presume to be your own ignorance or what you might have missed in your time with the nkt ,
        
        just enjoy the freedom you now have to read and practice at your own pace , I have been reading for the past twentyfive years or more !!! a lot as you have been reading history comparative studies of buddhism and indian vedic traditions, but the most important thing is to take every thing at your own pace some times I feel studied out so I rest and enjoy my practice , then when I feel I have digested the last lot of information , I start reading again . after all what is right for one person is not nececarily right for another and you must allways be the judge of that , and let no one elses opinion put you under any presure .
        
        If you still enjoy to read tibetan buddhism , and if it is still available try to find a small book called “Tsongkapa” , “The principle teachings of buddhism” It was one of the first books I read long before nkt days and I allways felt that this book made more of a profound impression on me than any other book , its ref no is , isbn 0-918753-09-0 , It was then and still is now pure nectar . without the indoctrination .
        and I enjoy the dalai lama imensely for his warmth and simplicity , thus proving that buddhism is much more about the gentle heart than the aquisition of knowledge .
        
        best wishes ,
        ratikala
        ,
        
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        tenpel on June 20, 2012 at 8:35 pm
        
        Thank you ratikala for your thoughts.
        
        I agree with what you are saying. Actual Lamrim is not a beginner’s practice at all.
        It is a system that sums the essence of many scriptures and which is very effective but it requires a lot of study, investigation and analysis, and it is not easy!
        
        I find the approach most kague teachers stress better for Westerners: learn to settle your mind by starting with shamatha (enhancing concentration) and especially the non-meditation or open space (like Mingyur Rinpoche is teaching it) … because most westerners think already too much. most are used to overly analyse things and I think it is better to start practice by learning to relax, learning to let go. many people seem to be tight up by the lamrim teachings, feeling rather pushed, stressed etc. instead of liberating the mind they create more thought, stress and concerns … more over I find the Lamrim approach of Gampopa better for Westerners too: he starts with Buddha nature and not with the Guru (to put the guru first was an invention of Je Tsongkhapa who wrote his lamrim text for monastics who all were deeply rooted in tantric practice).
        
        so right view comes first as you say. and since practice means to work on the own mind, and teachings are given to work on the own mind, everythings starts, as you say, by better understanding ourselves. the teachings (and lamrim too) should be an aid for this. that gampopa puts Buddha nature as the first lamrim topic corresponds with what you are saying: we have to learn to understand ourselves …
        
        best wishes
        
        PS: I was not able to read the recent comments because I am involved in other topics (CIA, Harrer, Dalai Lama press coverages) …
        
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        ratikala on June 20, 2012 at 10:41 pm
        
        dear tenpel ,
        
        thankyou , dont worry its not a problem , hopefully things will,l right them selves we are simply trying to learn to talk and listen ,
        
        one interesting thing for me is that leaving the nkt meant moving away from organised buddhism , I no longer use overly buddhist speach , and I think it takes some time for some western buddhists to understand what I am saying as I have spent more time with indians in the past fifteen years , but the practice has never left me , I simply see things through a very different perspective , nothing I learnt has been wasted and the longer I practice the more I value simplicity….and allthough my time at the nkt was now very long ago there are some things that have stayed with me so I very much understand the nececity of this post and the need for each others support .
        
        is it possible to ask an off post question , I would value an opinion .
        
        many thanks
        
        ratikala
        
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        tenpel on June 20, 2012 at 11:24 pm
        
        dear ratikala,
        thank you. yes we are trying to learn and to listen. I understand what you mean with no longer using “overly buddhist speech” …
        
        it would be good if from now on we can come back to have a supportive approach here on the blog and I would like to invite everybody to help with this, to be a part of this. I will keep comments unapproved if they appear to be not so helpful and I might also ask persons to alter a comment before it goes online. This will need more effort and time from my side and it might lead to a delay in approving posts.
        
        Yes, there is a real need for supporting each other, and I am just happy if this can happen and people will more ease and a reduction of burden, and I am very sad if it does not go into this direction.
        
        You can ask me an off post question: tenzin at gmx dot org
        Thank you for your contributions.
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John Swainson on June 14, 2012 at 4:46 pm
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The following is about another arena where things may go awry but may be approprate.

‘Hansie Cronje – what a sad end to a life thoroughly messed up. With the promise of the rainbow nation, anointed by Mandela, you were a tough competitor and fearless leader. Not hugely blessed with natural talent like a Botham or Richards, yet someone who worked hard, rose though the ranks, was incredibly fit (the ‘beep test’ King) and made the most of what they had, Steve Waugh-like.
Behind the facade though was a ruthless manipulator. A charming persona disguised someone with little moral compass yet with strong persuasion and power over others, used to ruthless effect. According to the facts of the case, as a tough captain, Cronje’s web sucked in players under his charge to fix matches. Once caught in the bookies’ net with easy money earned, greed took over until a chance phone call was tapped between him and an Indian bookie.
It later came out that Cronje was (according to his team Doctor) a classic “psychopath” – not in the blood-curdling axe-chopping sense of the Hollywood movie, but in the “charming, no remorse, no conscience” sense of real life. A massive manipulator of people, he was up to all sorts for years, on the take, and possibly only a tiny proportion of what he was up to came out. In a recent poll of all time favourite South Africans though, he still came out in 11th place (Francois Pienaar, the world cup winning rugby captain of impeccable standing came 50th).’

I interrupt here regarding a recent conversation with Francois Pienaar.

Francois Pienaar was asked whether he would have succumbed to the pressures from the match fixing bookmakers. His reply was that he could not say. Once within the clutches of these people, who may be putting intolerable pressure on you, there is no saying what you would do. He again referred to a moral compass which could shift according to the pressure exerted.

Back to the original article.

‘Psychopaths are highly persuasive, and if he’d lived he may have been afforded a complete rehabilitation. There are still people who believe it was all a stitch up, that he could not have done these things, and his death was a cover up. Even in death, they can have power over people.
While most people buckle in their wake or turn a blind eye (it’s easier to do so I guess), they breed a toxicity in workplaces that can crowd out innovation, truth, fun and success. Studies show that they are all about us, representing 3-6% of the population. Don’t think you can convert them from the dark side, their behaviours were set in stone by the time they were 7. If you see charm, manipulation and no remorse/conscience you may be dealing with a psychopath. Tread carefully, for either they win and you lose, or you both lose. They need to go. For if they don’t leave, your good people will leave when they realize the person is not being dealt with (or worse, is supported).
Cronje was built up, lauded and given powers way beyond a normal sports captain. The obsessive end result brought his world, and South African cricket, crashing down’.

Charlie Gunningham.com
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  tenpel on June 14, 2012 at 8:39 pm
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  well analysed. thank you for this john!
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  EKC on June 14, 2012 at 9:22 pm
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  I’m not sure the NKT is run by psychopaths, having met one of those charming types and been left with an impression that simply makes my blood run cold when I think of him.
  
  Then again, not many of us meet the real leaders, so it’s hard to know.
  
  I tend to suspect they became corrupted through misapplied practice and power rather than that they were bad to begin with, but it would be hard to point to definite evidence of that.
  
  Interesting thoughts though, thanks John.
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    tenpel on June 14, 2012 at 9:37 pm
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    Stephen Hassan is claiming that the personality of the leader of a “cult” is transferred to the followers, they become gradually like him. I think there is truth in this. Also the Buddha is approving this when he says that one becomes like the person one is devoted to.
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    tenpel on June 14, 2012 at 9:43 pm
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    I tend to suspect they became corrupted through misapplied practice and power rather than that they were bad to begin with, but it would be hard to point to definite evidence of that.
    
    Yes, I think this is the case in most cases.
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EKC on June 15, 2012 at 9:23 am
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Just reading back through posts of the last few days, Tenzin wrote: “I remember a person writing that after 7 years of having disconnected from NKT he is still in a state of confusion …”

Which is the kind of thing I need to remember when thinking NKT may not be that bad. It sure is that bad if we’re still struggling years after leaving! Four years for me, and counting …

I talked with a few ex-NKT at a FPMT retreat earlier this year. One guy giving the “gratitude to KG” line but at least two others still remembering how bad NKT was and at some level still suffering from having been a member, though they did seem to have good practices within FPMT.

I wish Lamas and Geshes of other traditions would be more careful with the gratitude angle. The Samye Ling Lamas propogate it as well, and you’re left feeling that if you cannot “get over yourself” on the issue then it’s your own fault and a failing.

Though worse is the angle that since it’s your own karma playing out you’re not entitled to any bad feelings towards NKT at all – or at least, if you were a good Buddhist you wouldn’t have any.

Sorry of this sounds like a whinge – it didn’t start that way but may have drifted in that direction. The issues are real, the phrasing my not be ideal.
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  tenpel on June 15, 2012 at 11:25 am
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  I was four years in NKT and I needed four years for recovery, these four years were an incredible hard struggle, but I was finally able to manage it.
  Ususally I say it takes as long as you were follower of NKT to recover, however this is only to give a rough idea, it depends on the level one was involved as well how one is working on oneself after one has disconnected and the amount of support one is receiving. There are people who left NKT and had nervous breakdowns years after their disconnection. This issue shouldn’t be underestimated. Though it were good to finally develop an attitude of gratitude to develop gratitude would be a goal in the future after one has gone through a recovery process. People wouldn’t say to Tibetans who suffered from Chinese “treatment” to think about the kindness of the Chinese but to get over it and to transform the experience or the remembrance of it into something useful. Though people didn’t undergo physical torture in NKT there is something like a mental torture. To ask a person having experienced a type of torture to feel gratitude is not wise, I think. One must look where the person is standing at the moment. Since most cannot understand the mental suffering one undergoes in this relationship with NKT and a disconnection process, they give these “be grateful advices” but these often to not meet the situation and mindset of the person hence they are misplaced. I think the first step is acceptance, to accept what happened, to accept that one allowed others to be misled, betrayed, that one was a part of a manipulative system, to accept the own disappointment, anger and suffering. If there is acceptance there is peace. This peace creates space to understand, and understanding creates the condition to let go. To let go supports to look back later on the learning process and then one can feel gratitude for what one has finally learned and was able to manage to transform and that the NKT served as a basis for this. However, the process can also be different than described here briefly, but the point is it is not wise to ask a person who has been raped and whose experience is still overwhelming to feel gratitude towards the perpetrator. Healing and integration of bad experience is rather a gradual process and each step for healing needs different support or involves a different attitude. – However, these are just some quick thoughts to differentiate this subject a bit.
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  Fleadle on January 29, 2013 at 1:22 pm
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  It is always easy for those still in the NKT to talk so reasonably about those who have left, they don’t feel the hurt we do. Also in the NKT we are trained not to feel or go with our emotions, so everyone sounds so bloody reasonable but also very patronising, it use to drive me mad. I remember myself being like that to others and it makes me cringe. A friend of mine who lost someone very close was told by one NKT person that she had attachment and that’s why she mourned. Although this is correct it is a cold heartless way to help someone grieving. We stop relating to others in the NKT, we stop being human that’s why I try not to get too bothered by what NKT people say to me on blogs because I know I use to be just like that.
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EKC on June 20, 2012 at 1:38 pm
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author wrote: “Your response is irrational, your demand for respect speaks reems”

Actually people shouldn’t have to ask for respect, we should all be respectful of each other as a default.

Regards names, even with ordinary names one of the first things I was taught as student nurse a couple of decades ago was to ask people what they wanted to be called and respect that from then on. How much more so with names that have meanings such as those given by a Lama or other teacher.
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  tenpel on June 20, 2012 at 8:45 pm
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  Thank you EKC.
  
  I am not able to follow the discussion or to moderate comments. In case I approved comments which are disrespectful I do apologize as the person in charge for the blog. I don’t know how to find a proper balance with this blog and my time. This blog shouldn’t play a too big part in my life nor do I want to block new comments until I read them. Maybe you all could help me with keeping up a save, kind and tolerant atmosphere? You could also contact me offline if things go wrong.
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  ratikala on June 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm
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  dear ETC ,
  
  thank you yes my name is precious to me for its meaning , and yes we should be as you say respectfull as a default , after all we are here to share a little encoragement and good association ….. well that is what I had assumed ?
  
  I think this situation calls for a little of carols requested ‘good humour’ …it is too easy for us to get caught up in apperances and assumptions and it would seem that our freind author got a little anoyed at me for saying please ?
  
  dear author ,
  
  please, laugh with us and see the crazyness of this situation life is too short and too precious to be wasted ,
  I could easily take offence at many things you say like ……”Your comment would seem to demonstrate an only partial knowledge concerning the nature of these two traditions” …..but instead of being anoyed , as a freind I am saying … try being a little less hot headed and try actualy reading what I am saying with an open and non judgemental mind … and chear up !
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EKC on June 20, 2012 at 9:20 pm
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author: >> One thing can appear as many things to the eyes of different perceivers<<

Absolutely, and can you see how often your comments her are appearing to some of us as destructive, divisive and hurtful?

I understand from what you have said previously that your home life is quite rowdy, but many do not choose to live this way, and prefer and need more consideration and respect to be able to get someone's points, especially if the person is constantly challenging us.

I do not feel considered or respected with regards to some of your posts, and as you know others are feeling similarly.

If you are really here to help and not harm then what would help us would be for you to be gentler, kinder and more open to other views.
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  anonymous on June 20, 2012 at 9:58 pm
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  Thank you, I stopped writing here because it appears to be a discussion group for academic views, and nothing to do with ex-NKT. Might i suggest, author, that you start another, or join another blog more suited to your comments? You are totally in your head (not necessarily a bad thing, I hasten to add) but this space is for people who have had their hearts broken, and really it doesn’t help to enter into discussions about the relative merits of this or that practice.
  You, author, do sound like someone who ‘knows better’ and really I don’t want to hear/read that any more. sorry if this sounds abrupt, but for the first time in years I found a space to share some of my issues. Please be so kind as to let those of us who are still hurting, continue to explore our feelings in a safe space.
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    EKC on June 21, 2012 at 8:28 am
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    anomymous wrote: “Might i suggest, author, that you start another, or join another blog more suited to your comments? ”
    
    Yes, I thought about that too. If someone is coming strictly from their interpretation of one particular tradition it is more relevant if they discuss that with people doing the same, not somewhere where people will be coming from all different directions. In a big way there is no absolute right and wrong way for ex-NKT to practice and indeed part of our process has to be trying other things to see if we can find something that works for us. And being open minded about ourself and others is helpful all round.
    
    Myself, I’m more and more seeing I can’t do Tibetan traditions at all, but that doesn’t mean I lose the Dharma, it means finding approaches to the Dharma that do not have bad associations.
    
    I have happily booked on a non-religious meditation course at Samye Ling in a few weeks and I very much look forward to seeing and trying some alternative approaches to meditation. I’ve also been looking at Quaker courses (when I can afford!) and there is all sorts, some Buddhist and one that particularly interests me on Sikhism. Dharma is in fact everywhere if we are skillful about what we bring into our practices, I think.
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      anonymous on June 21, 2012 at 3:30 pm
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      I’d like to hear more from people who are looking in different directions, right now anything that smacks of Buddhism leaves a bad taste in my mouth, a black feeling in my mind. But a spiritual path is so important. I am searching for mine, but am not sure where to look. As you say I don’t think I can ‘do’ Tibetan traditions, at least not right now, I was too close and saw everything.
      What Quaker courses are there ‘out there?’ What about contemplative Christianity, does anyone know about that tradition?
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        EKC on June 22, 2012 at 7:45 am
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        Contemplative Christianity appears to exist mostly in monasteries and convents, with no specific churches in most localities. Probably the best way in would be to contact a monastery or convent that takes visitors, and go from there. You could go to an ordinary church but might find it unfulfilling.
        
        There’s a book about Christian mystics by Ursula King that makes interesting reading.
        
        In this day and age a websearch would be the first thing to do.
        
        I don’t know what country you’re in, but if the UK, for Quaker centres do a search for Woodbrooke, that’s in Birmingham, and it does residential courses and retreats. You can request a brochure. Also they do bursaries to allow low income people onto courses they can’t afford. There’s another Quaker centre in Ulverston (ha!) that does a few courses; these are listed in the Woodbrooke brochure Both are near enough to railway stations to walk to.
        
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        EKC on June 22, 2012 at 8:49 am
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        An excellent book on the Christian contemplative tradition is “From the Bottom of the Pond” by Simon Small.
        
        I was wowed when I first read it a few years ago, have kept meaning to reread it since but there are always new books to get through first!
        
        Even the title is food for thought.
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author on June 21, 2012 at 7:51 am
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Luckily for all, I dont have time to post here any more However, just to remind you, this present spat arose because I simply corrected a fundamental mistake in Ratikalas understanding (suggesting the 8fold path was prior to Lam Rim) and because Ratikala didnt like the sound of Rati (aversion to sound-according to the Dharma, a basic problem for beginners to cope with)
Since then, I have been told by all here how and who to be/.Some of you might recall living in centres and the problem of everybody telling others how to be instead of looking at themselves-Obviously that doesnt just happen in centres. I also recall an alliance on NKS between two posters here, an alliance that led to a very unhealthy atmosphere.I wonder if the two ever lived together
It srrikes me as funny that those who claim they think others are bullying, are often the bullies themselves-a quick glance back at the group mentality and how it has evolved here will demonstrate that the ‘victims’ often give as good as they get, especially when they outnumber their ‘enemy’ .
Anyway, it is obvious that people dont like having their preconceptions challenged (think about it) si I will bow out and, in my typically unBuddhist way, accept defeat and offer the victory to others but, as my parting words I would like to offer this piece of advice in return for all that I have received here
Buddhism should make you feel uncomfortable, it should make you struggle and face your own hypocrisy. if it doesnt do that and you are using it to feel comfortable and cant handle the slightest confrontation, it probably isnt working
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  tenpel on June 21, 2012 at 10:44 am
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  Dear author.
  As I said, I didn’t follow the discussion.
  But I can see that there are some sort of attacks like: ‘you are like this’, ‘you have this sort of problem’. (I wonder if I stepped also in this trap …) We have already come to terms to stop this. I think it is best to leave the place now for those who want to discuss their transition from NKT or Sogyal in an open and rather save environment which means there should be space to say what one thinks and that others rather listen. As I said you once in NKS it appears to me that you don’t understand the complications and challenges of a transition process of a person once affiliated with NKT … in such a sensitive state, a sensitive approach is needed.
  
  Leaving this topic now behind, I wonder what is the problem to say that the 8fold path comes prior to Lam Rim? It is not necessarily wrong to say like this. The 8fold path starts with Right View which refers mainly to the 4NT, Karma, nature of Samsara. Lamrim, as it is known to ex-NKT and Gelugs, starts with Reliance on the Guru, to see him as a Buddha, which is a tantric means for advanced students. If based on such investigations someone says that the 8fold Noble Path comes prior to Lamrim, it is perfectly acceptable. If one sees that the 8FNP is condensed in the 3Hiher Trainings and they are included in Lamrim, one can oppose such a view. However, I wouldn’t go so far to insist on a “fundamental mistake”.
  
  After the tightness of NKT I think it is of utmost importance for ex-members to have space and to be encouraged to “play around” with different spiritual approaches and traditions, in order to sort out things, to sort out the past, to sort out the own inner wishes and needs, and to see the wide variety of spirituality. My Kague teacher realized this, and he gave me a lot of space and encouragement. Even when I had the wish to go back to the university (as a monk) he prayed for the success of this. It took me years to sort out myself. What was most helpful was compassion (rarely experienced!), understanding, encouragement and that someone saw the qualities in what I was doing. And of course the company of people having the same problems and wise teachers, who knew how to help me …
  
  Thank you for everything. We keep in touch offline.
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author on June 21, 2012 at 9:36 am
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And finally, one cannot be a Vaishnavite and a Buddhist at the same time! To take refuge in worldly gods is a direct contradiction of the fundamentals of Buddhist refuge. You cannot be a theist and a non theist simultaneously, oh holy one!
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  EKC on June 21, 2012 at 1:25 pm
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  It all depends on how much one grasps at one’s own views and can’t stand either for them to be challenged, or for others to live different ways of life well.
  
  I mentioned earlier on the thread that there are people around who call themselves Buddhist Christians, and the Quakers, basically Christian, accept all religions within their fold. There is an increasing trend towards interfaith interactions and respect and understanding between those of all religions. Gandhi said we must be the peace we wish to see in the world.
  
  After something very closed like NKT it is a welcome relief and relaxing to be able to accept all ways, not feel the tense need to close most others out, and insist they can’t understand (while tacitly saying we’re the elite who do understand). I look back and laugh gently at my superiority then.
  
  The Dalai Lama advocates practising the religion of your country, and his advice is good enough for me 🙂
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    EKC on June 21, 2012 at 9:36 pm
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    One last thought on this and I’m off to bed.
    
    It does appear contradictory to say you can be a theist and a non-theist. But … there are intermediate positions. The Sikhs have one. They would say they are theists, they believe in a God, but their God does not intervene in the affairs of men. There is no point praying to this God for worldly gain. This God is not a man in the sky. Their real point is to merge their mind with God, which they do by continually repeating the Name.
    
    Which isn’t so different from all the non-duality traditions, including Buddhism and Advaita, where there’s an aim to get behind what seems apparent and somehow hold the mind there and/or merge with it, whether you would call that the ground of being, the godhead or emptiness. In practice, and I’ve tried a few, the experience is the same.
    
    And practices of day to day kindness, love and compassion both aid this kind of practice and arise naturally from it.
    
    There may well be a level where whether you believe there is or isn’t a God doesn’t matter if it’s leading to peaceful minds and a merging or experience of what is beyond day to day appearance. It could be much the same as whether you believe in the Tibetan Buddhist pantheon or see them as symbols that can help your practice if you don’t take them too literally.
    
    Hum, I’m well off topic so do feel free to ignore, these are just thoughts emerging from a few years of reading about and trying different things and putting it all together in an ever changing way.
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    ratikala on June 21, 2012 at 10:26 pm
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    dear EKC
    
    you say “after something very closed “… “it is a welcome releif” … this is exactly how I felt , after the nkt and their efforts to stremeline everyone in to nkt mode of opperation , then visiting other tibetan schools in hope of finding a new home , and being told you will have to forget every thing you have learnt , and being treated as some kind of leper , … is it any wonder that a person goes to another tradition .
    
    it is only at that point that one realises the common ground between faiths , and one discovers allso many other rewarding aspects of faith in general , I found myself amongst people who kept the same precepts and held a concept of dharma which was as close to buddhism as one could ever wish for , some aspects of practice are different , but there are also differences in the practice between different schools of buddhism .
    
    there is so much in comon between religions that it is more productive to focus on the common ground and to leave out the differences , It is for this reason that I beleive inter faith discussion can be so rewarding .
    and it is true that it is the grasping or attatchment to ones own , or ones cultural veiw , that causes the majority of problems . and the necesity to debate ones own veiw as if it were a provable thing is something that eventualy subsides once one realises the futility of such actions .
    
    something very nice the dalai lama once said “If it is something you find usefull , then by all means addopt it” . “if not it is no problem simply leave it out” , the most beautifull thing about the way he teaches is that he leaves it to you to decide , it is your choice , no one is forcing anything , except that his secret weapon against ignorance is that he knows that as soon as you calmly and rationaly examine the dharma you will find it to be true and you will automaticaly want to addopt it , such is the confidence of a realised being ,
    
    how then can I ever abandon the buddha dharma , how can I abandon something I realise to be well founded ? so I practice it now amongst a different set of people , but when those people have no problem with my background and have only respect for lord buddha , what problem should I have with that ?
    
    and is there realy any difference between hindu deity yoga and buddhist deity yoga after all where did both buddhism and tantra come from ?
    
    this raises the question as to why we are scared of anything different why do we as humans have to assert our veiw as the only veiw , our way as the only way , this is dangerous stuff ! .. cant we look at it openmindedly and simply ask how does this work ? .. we dont have to addopt it , but understanding it without fear can only be a good thing .it can also strengthen our own practice without diluting it .
    
    something also very comfortable for me is being amongst truely humble people , yes there are the superior amongst all religions but those are the spiritualy imature . there is also a deep phylosophical understanding and a lot of tollerance , which is a great releif .
    
    all I can say is that I didnt come here for debate but simply to reflect and share some thoughts .
    
    best wishes , ratikala
    - 230
      
      EKC on June 22, 2012 at 7:48 am
      Reply
      
      ratikala, your thoughts are appreciated, as is your calm and wisdom 🙂
231

Sheila on June 21, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Reply

I think it’s sad to think of Lamrim as standing in opposition somehow to other study methods – Lamrim wouldn’t be Lamrim, if it didn’t uphold the Buddhist tenets. I think we can get distracted by the fact Lamrim is popular in Tibetan Buddhism, and we then think of it is somehow “stained” by tantra (or at least, that’s the impression I get, reading this thread). (I’m also baffled overall as to how tantra is seen as some kind of creepy thing, when it is simply a collection of ways to work with the mind, but I guess that’s a larger topic).

I am curious, though, what basic points about Lamrim make it even possible to come to the conclusion it is somehow “anti” 8 fold path; it could be others have been in a situation where this seems true, but I’ve never experienced this. We study Lamrim every week, and every week one of the main branches of practice which is emphasized is ethics, ethics, ethics – the inseparability of ethics and wisdom.

For a fresh look at the whole thing, I can’t recommend highly enough Yangsi Rinpoche’s “Practicing the Path: A Commentary on the Lamrim Chenmo,” for anyone interested in a concise summary-of-the-summary, for lack of a better word! 🙂
- 232
  
  EKC on June 21, 2012 at 8:29 pm
  Reply
  
  I don’t see Lamrim as in any way stained, just as quite an advanced set of practices. Same for tantra, though tantra has added dangers in the wrong hands.
233

Sheila on June 21, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Reply

But any Buddhist path will be emphasizing the basic tenets of Buddhism, whether you see it as the four seals, the eightfold path, etc. It wouldn’t be genuine Buddhism if the basic tenets were not honored. There are a multitude of paths for a multitude of people – it might be uncomfortable to discover that this or that path is not for you, after all, but one can then try to find another path, and hopefully not feel the need to criticize other paths that work for others. Christianity so often teaches “my way or no way” (as do cults), and I think it’s very hard to leave that mindset behind and allow for the possibility that there can be many, many utterly genuine paths.
- 234
  
  EKC on June 21, 2012 at 9:14 pm
  Reply
  
  Your points are interesting and I see a few avenues that would need to be explored before probably concluding that no one person or tradition has the right to define for everyone else what is needed to add Buddhist to your religious identity, or to take it as your sole religious identity.
  
  First off, different Buddhist traditions vary on the basics of what has to be in place for someone to call themselves Buddhist, for example some say simple the triple refuge is enough. Others might say you have to accept things like rebirth and karma. Your preference is the person must accept “the four seals, the eightfold path, etc” (leaving me with a question of what exactly is etc?).
  
  Further there will surely be people effectively born Buddhist, Buddhism is part of their core identity, but who may not have these beliefs or practices.
  
  I’m quite liberal on who uses what label – to me it seems if a person benefits from adding some Dharma to their life they may choose to add Buddhist to their identity if it suits. It certainly can help fend off having to give long, inappropriate explanations to just say, “I’m a Buddhist Christian”, or my current one which is “I’m sort of Buddhist”.
  
  It seems to me many of the lines are arbitrary, in particular the line between Buddhism and Hinduism, as Buddhism could not have arisen without its Hindu origins, and Hindus generally see Buddhism as part of a vast array of Hindu traditions.
  
  In the West there are still a lot of people who would admit a Christian identity even if they don’t go to church or pray, it just feels like it’s a part of who they are. Perhaps that’s how I feel about Buddhism – it just feels a part of who I am. OK I met Dharma in a cult, but I am not the same person I was before. Even in a Buddhist cult there can be changes that are profound and significant and lastingly beneficial. So I do not feel that Buddhist has stopped being a valid descriptor.
  
  I do understand how some people with specific views of exactly what are the very basics of being a Buddhist might feel that should be challenged. I just don’t feel that anyone owns the copyright or trademark on the term.
  - 235
    
    ratikala on June 22, 2012 at 8:17 am
    Reply
    
    dear sheila , I find what you say perfectly true
    “OK I met Dharma in a cult, but I am not the same person I was before. Even in a Buddhist cult there can be changes that are profound and significant and lastingly beneficial.”
    
    and to think that any one is any less a buddhist because one has left the group of persons practicing it , would be quite wrong .
    
    It is the dharma itself that has the profound efect , and it is that change that we should hold on to and be thankfull for that change , even parts of the practice learnt there , our sadhana much of which is still valid , it is simply the negative aspects that we need to leave behind .
    
    it is simply that we lack the prefix of being a nkt buddhst , and unless we are addopted by any other groupwe simply become buddhist .
    
    I think what many suffer is a form of identity crisis , when in truth is there realy any need for this external identity after all we all know where our hearts lay , it is just a question of how one defines it which is acceptable to others ???
    
    it is a question of basic goodness and one that I might return to later ?
    
    best wishes
    
    ratikala
    - 236
      
      EKC on June 22, 2012 at 11:41 am
      Reply
      
      That’s my post you’re answering, not Sheila’s! No worries.
      
      Yes, that’s a good take about external identity – in a way we should only need it as a useful way to explain to others should they ask, rather than as a way of labelling who or what we are.
      - 237
        
        ratikala on June 23, 2012 at 10:27 pm
        Reply
        
        dear EKC
        
        beg your pardon , and thankyou !
        
        yes , this Idea of identity is something that continues to amaze me ,
        
        on one hand I can agree with belonging to one tradition and sticking with that method of teaching providing one is fortunate enough to find a tradition that is solid and free from contradiction , and that preferably one should perfect that one set of teachings in this lifetime without the distraction of interests in other paths .
        
        in which case there is a factual identity , a student of —school , therefore a —buddhist
        
        but in the case that is so prevelant these days where we are let down by a system in which we placed faith , where we suffer the dissapointment of not being able to follow through to a conclusion , never having the oppertunity to fully qualify , so we are in a kind of limbo we dont realy qualify for the title so become a lone buddhist, still having supreme faith in the dharma but not identifying with a particular school.
        personaly I have gone through periods of feeling phoney or fake because I dont any longer belong to a particular school , but then when I read some buddhist text and my heart is full of joy and contentment then I sence my belonging , and no title or lack of title can seperate me from that understanding .
        what I was calling ‘basic goodness’, exists in buddhism it exists in christianity and I am sure in all religions , it was in that way that I took to vaisnava practice , in vaisnava dharma I saw buddha dharma , I saw the same basic goodness so now which title do I use ? right upto my initiation many of my new sangha called me their buddhist freind , initiation seemed to change their thinking as I was now family , but still my thinking is very buddhist . keeping vaisnava precepts is no different so I dont have to give up my love of buddhism , I still have very buddhist sencitivities , I canot un realise basic goodness , so what am I ? an nkt refugee who took shelter in a safe place but still I bring my realisation with me ,
        and any other ex nkt member still takes that basic goodness away with them maybe taking shelter in other traditions or in christianity , and unless I renounce buddhism I am both , …and shouldnt I be proud to say so ?
        
        the only reason I dont is when it would cause confusion , then say nothing let them assume what they will ,
        
        but in truth I am buddhist and I am vaisnava that is my make up , so what use are these identities apart from to satisfy some external need to categorise ?
        
        a talk the dalai lama gave many years back , which talk I now forget , said … “two eyes , ears , nose , … something mooving , … Oh another human being” , “just like me , another human being !”
        
        and likewise we need to recognise basic goodness it is present in many places , I think that the problem lay in the lack of confidence , which happens after a shock to the system , but it comes back in many guises , it was there in many within the nkt and it has come away with us too , as it was allways ours to cultivate .
        It is not the philosopical system of a particular shcool , .. it is the heart of the human being !
        
        Ha Ha, hope that makes some sence ? so what is this identity ? who is grasping at ? or who is simply giving a fact ?
        
        best wishes
        ratikala
238

Sheila on June 21, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Reply

I’m struck by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche’s presentation of the four seals:

“Actually, if all these four seals are found in a path or a philosophy, it doesn’t matter whether you call it Buddhist or not. You can call it what you like; the words “Buddhist” or “Buddhism” are not important. The point is that if this path contains these four seals, it can be considered the path of the Buddha.”

The four seals are just impermanence, suffering, emptiness, and liberation/nirvana…the most basic philosophic concepts contained (as far as I know) in all schools, sects, and lineages of Buddhism.
- 239
  
  EKC on June 22, 2012 at 8:02 am
  Reply
  
  I see. Impermance, emptiness and liberation/nirvana are irrefutably related, and suffering is the impetus to act. I guess my query would be, do all these have to be directly taken on board for a path to be Buddhist? I think they are implicit in a number of paths, perhaps in some way in pretty much all human spirituality, though they may go unspoken or there may be a different angle such as many theists aiming for some sort of heaven rather than the direct idea of nirvana, or again theists talking of surrender to God rather than emptiness, which relates as a giving up of the self – and without impermanence, or the ability and necessity of change, none of any of it could happen.
  
  Am I making ant sense? Lol.
240

Sheila on June 21, 2012 at 11:25 pm
Reply

Of course how we deal with those four things (as well as others) is where we get all colorful and different 😉 But I think maybe that’s the point. So many, many times it seems that after taking “emptiness” in two “different” directions, we end up coming back together, having formed a more three-dimensional view which benefited from (actually, depended on) the “divergence.”

I agree that it is very, very hard, as an ex-Christian and ex-cultist, to become comfortable with the concept of “many paths are genuine.” Certainly, much of Christianity does not allow for this, and the “God has only one way” message is burned deep into my brain. Even when I think I’m being expansive, I’m generally being narrower than I should. I don’t know – maybe this struggle has a purpose, too.
- 241
  
  ratikala on June 24, 2012 at 8:24 am
  Reply
  
  dear sheila,
  
  yes certainly the struggle has a purpose ,
  
  something very nice Ekc said a little while back …….”Dharma is in fact everywhere if we are skillful about what we bring into our practices, I think.” …….. when one sees this way one is seeing the truth or the realisation of truth where ever it occurs , and it occurs in all religious systems , as does ignorance and missunderstanding .
  I see it as forgiving the inevitable human ignorance and sifting for the true dharma jewels, to me the struggle was the forgiving .
  It seems some how dissrespectfull to call another ignorant , but by realiseing ignorance as the natural human condition we lovingly forgive the restraints placed upon us by the fearfull, this truth is in it self so expansive that by many it canot be fully grasped therefore a narow veiw is cultivated and stepping beyond that veiw is discouraged , this is human fear . if one can recognise that fear in oneself then one can forgive it in others and one can desolve some of the boundarys which we allow to be placed opon our selves .
  
  so this struggle is very usefull for a while we struggle , and eventualy the struggle becomes unbearable so there is a possibility to do two things , give up the struggle and accept the common veiw (in the case of a cult , it is the cult veiw , the indoctrinated veiw) …or we give up the struggle and go beyond …what can happen ? … all that can happen is that we can descover that truth for ourselves we can descover that there does not need to be an ‘ism’ to deliver the truth , but of course if we can find a school of thought with which we can share that search then we are blessed !
  
  but stil if we carry on , another kind of blessing comes .
  
  best wishes
  
  ratikala
242

EKC on June 26, 2012 at 7:57 pm
Reply

I’m suddenly getting these pages with a colour scheme, Tenzin do you know any way to override it? My laptop is set with a specific coloured background and I cannot read at all on this yellow!
- 243
  
  tenpel on June 27, 2012 at 10:28 am
  Reply
  
  I changed to another layout. I don’t know if it has to do with this. At the moment I have no computer access. I am in Milano. Hh Dalai lama teaching. I hope it’s not Diego the new theme I set up.
  - 244
    
    Carol on June 27, 2012 at 1:07 pm
    Reply
    
    Oddly – at the top of the page it is dark blue, then changes to yellow right at the bottom. I get the emails sent to my inbox and there it is possible to read them. Then you could write your reply and just come to this site to post it. Would that help EKC? In general this new format is much easier to read. Tenzin will not be able to change it for a few days; until the Dalai Lama’s teachings are finished
    http://dalailama.com/milan-english
  - 245
    
    EKC on June 27, 2012 at 7:31 pm
    Reply
    
    Unfortunately I suspect that’s the issue. My computer settings could override whatever set up you had before, but they can’t override this scheme.
    
    I hope the teachings are going well 🙂
246

EKC on June 28, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Reply

It’s fine now! If anyone did anything, thank you.

The issue is I have scotopic sensitivity ie my brain sees colour too bright, and also migraine, and they make a vicious circle each making the other worse, so I use a dark blue-grey screen background to vastly reduce brightness. It can override most things but clearly not all!
- 247
  
  tenpel on June 29, 2012 at 5:24 pm
  Reply
  
  I fixed it via mobile phone … happy to hear that it functions again.
248

john swainson on January 27, 2013 at 1:53 pm
Reply

http://np.linkedin.com/pub/jayadish-shakya/23/905/486
This link will tell you about Lucy James, Nick Gillespie and Bjorn Clausen’s current lives.
- 249
  
  Carol McQuire on January 27, 2013 at 6:56 pm
  Reply
  
  http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lucy-james/3a/a93/165
250

john swainson on January 27, 2013 at 1:59 pm
Reply

Tenzin….did you mean this one?
http://www.nkt-irc-kailash.org/en/our-resident-teacher
- 251
  
  tenpel on January 27, 2013 at 2:30 pm
  Reply
  
  John, thank you for the links. Yes, I meant him. He was once very central in Manjushri Centre, one of the view “Gen-las”, but he fell out of favor with KG. Then he was sent to an Asian country – far away from UK.
  
  All of them are still connected to NKT.
  - 252
    
    Carol McQuire on January 27, 2013 at 6:43 pm
    Reply
    
    http://www.kadampa.ch/en/our-resident-teacher
    
    Losang is in Switzerland as National Spiritual Director for Switzerland, Italy and Austria….
253

john swainson on January 27, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Reply

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/james-belither/58/781/559
254

john swainson on January 27, 2013 at 2:21 pm
Reply

Dear Lineageholder.
Your statement.
‘I feel that I need to say something because I’m sad to read these comments – how does the expression of such negativity really help anybody? Fleadle, I know you feel hurt and angry, but can’t you see that the reason why you have any knowledge of Dharma is because of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? At least that’s got to be a good thing? I know we all have freedom of expression but even if you do feel negatively about Geshe Kelsang it’s really better to try and keep it to yourself, as poison expressed is even greater poison as it destroys other people’s faith.’

I feel the above is as helpful as telling the victims of Jimmy Saville’s abusive actions that at least they found out a lot about the popular music industry or how to be a hospital porter.

——–
note by blogowner
this is a reply to the following comment by ‘lineage holder’
- 255
  
  EKC on January 27, 2013 at 10:20 pm
  Reply
  
  Lineageholder wrote: I feel that I need to say something because I’m sad to read these comments – how does the expression of such negativity really help anybody? Fleadle, I know you feel hurt and angry, but can’t you see that the reason why you have any knowledge of Dharma is because of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? At least that’s got to be a good thing?
  
  ***
  As a result of how things panned out for me in NKT I am not able to practise Dharma or trust any Buddhist tradition or even other religion. What’s good about that? (And let’s not get into the “it’s your own karma playing out” thing. Please.) Six years after leaving NKT I’ve begun to get to grips with it from a secular perspective via some brave counselling from folk not trained to deal with ex-cult stuff but with enough nouse to work out what’s helpful. Yet even as recently as last night I was talking about what happened to Namgyal and how it was all brought back to me via an Open University DVD segment on NKT a couple of years ago. I have no gratitude to KG at all, and don’t plan to have any. (I do, however, have gratitude to some of my well meaning if heavily misled NKT teachers who were as misguided as I was at the time, but at least genuine about it and fairly ignorant of the kinds of things anyone researching NKT online soon comes to know.)
  
  And by the way I’m not a member of the survivors group. When I talk about my experience in NKT it’s what happened to me and those close to me, not a general collective griping session. Think about it, all the survivors have walked the walk, not just talked the talk (though if course we did that too).
  
  I’m afraid there’s no point in trying to justify KG or NKT generally here; we’ve been there, seen it, and left or been forced to leave, and we know what we know – and also what we thought we knew when we were NKT.
  
  Sorry if this post is in the wrong place – I couldn’t find your original so copied and pasted via email.
  
  ——–
  note by blogowner
  this is a reply to the following comment by ‘lineage holder’
  - 256
    
    tenpel on January 27, 2013 at 10:46 pm
    Reply
    
    Thank you EKC and fleadle for your honest, and heart moving replies.
    
    [for me the damage is so far away its only a remembrance… what both of you say rings so true in me and moves me. it shows me also how important it still is to be active with respect to NKT.]
    
    thank you very much.
    wishing you all the best.
    
    PS: I inserted in your and John’s comment a link to LH’s post. So that the reader finds the origin.
257

Eli Olaeta on August 11, 2015 at 3:42 am
Reply

Hello, my name is Eli and I am ex N.K.T. and I turned to Christ though I never pushed it on anyone. When they started teaching wrath is a virtue, there have been people going way to far with that. They have actually threatend my life and stalked me and have been damaging my life for 4 years now. I have lived in fear for a long time. They contiously try to force me to go back, and I won’t. They even have a phrase “we chew you up and we spit you out” three times, like a mantra. And they keep bringing new young people in. I have lived with fear now for a long time, and the stalking does’t end. I want to find a support group and get police help, but they have powerful connections in my county. I don’t know what to do but I need help. Thank you for reading me and being brave enough to write about them online.
- 258
  
  tenpel on August 12, 2015 at 7:59 am
  Reply
  
  Hi Eli,
  I think in this case you should go to the police. Usually NKT leaves people alone and avoids contact with those who left them – considering them as outsiders, losers or people who lack or exhausted their “good fortune to have met the NKT”. I’ve never heard of a case like this. Of course NKT try to get young people in but they avoid ex-members rather like poison. NKT is indeed on some power positions and have successfully prevented complaints and critical reports and even in at least one case they brought the police to illegal actions in the UK by arresting an innocent man who didn’t obey the NKT leadership but behaved according to laws and rules. Maybe you try to get help on one of the Facebook groups like Exposing the NKT? There are some Facebook groups of ex-members, also the New Kadampa Survivor Activists are on FB and then there is the Yahoo Forum New Kadampa Survivors. I cannot add the links now here in this comment but you find them on the blog and if you google for those groups. HTH! All the best, T
- 259
  
  tenpel on August 12, 2015 at 8:03 am
  Reply
  
  Dear Eli, you can also contact INFORM and ask them for help! http://inform.ac/contact

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