Buddhism, Dialogue, Dorje Shugden Controversy, New Kadampa Tradition, Religion

by tenpelAugust 18, 20142:36 pm

Full video: Panel Discussion at SOAS: “The Shugden Controversy & the 14th Dalai Lama”

Description by London Ney (Tibetans in London):

Panel Discussion: “The Shugden Controversy & the 14th Dalai Lama”

Organised by Dr Nathan W. Hill of the School of Oriental and African Studies with LondonNey

Friday, 15th Aug 2014, from 6pm to 8pm at SOAS, University of LONDON, UK

This panel discussion will address the on-going ‘Shugden controversy’ in the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism, which is surrounded by confusion, misinformation, and disagreement. While the Dalai Lama and many Tibetans have ceased to honour ‘Shugden’ and regard the propitiation of Shugden as problematic, a vocal minority, especially the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) established in the West, believe the Shugden deity to be an essential component or Dharma protector of the Gelug School, and claim to be a minority discriminated against on religious grounds.

The community of Tibetan Buddhists has been agitated and are puzzled by the intensity of this dispute concerning the practice of the controversial deity – Shugden. Tibetans are generally bewildered by the actions of Western Buddhist organisations such as the NKT and their protests wherever the Dalai Lama travels, leading many Tibetans to become suspicious of Western Buddhist practitioners in general.

Then, many Tibetans accuse the Shugden protesters as “devil worshippers”, “Chinese agents” and “Taliban Buddhists” while the pro-Shugden protestors question the very authenticity of the 14th Dalai Lama, using slogans such as “fake Dalai Lama”, “Muslin Dalai Lama”, “lying Dalai Lama”, and so on.

The purpose of this unprecedented, moderated discussion among experts and representatives from different sides of the dispute is to openly address this issue. The event is open to the general public with the aim of providing a better understanding of this issue.

The event will be live-streamed in order to provide the opportunity for far greater audiences. Here is the link http://www.livestream.com/Tibetan

This discussion will be moderated by Dr Nathan W. Hill, Lecturer in Tibetan and Linguistics at SOAS and the speakers include:

Dr Martin A. Mills (University of Aberdeen), ‘Human rights and the Shugden ban amongst Himalayan communities’

Thierry Dodin (Tibetologist) ‘From Lhasa to Shigatse: History and function of Shugden worship”

Kelsang Rabten (Shugden Community), ‘Refuting the claim of Tenzin Gyatso as an authentic Dalai Lama’

Geshe Tashi Tsering (Jamyang Buddhist Centre), ‘Refuting the claim of Dolgyal (Shugden) as a protector in the Tsongkhapa tradition’

Carol McQuire (former member of New Kadampa Tradition) ‘Shugden practitioners or Shugden followers’

John McBretney (Shugden Community), ‘The suffering of Shugden Buddhists within the Tibetan exile community, and the Dalai Lama’s role in this’

Venue: Vernon Square Room V211
The School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS)
University of London, WC1X 9EW

More Academic Material

Academic Research regarding Shugden Controversy and New Kadampa Tradition-IKBU 2008/07/24
Recently uploaded:
- This Turbulent Priest: Contesting Religious Rights and the State in the Tibetan Shugden Controversy by Prof. Martin A. Mills
- Charting the Shugden Interdiction in the Western Himalaya Prof. Martin A. Mills
- The Dorje Shugden Conflict – An Interview with Tibetologist Thierry Dodin

Statements by Western Buddhists

22Comments

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1

Sam Hoff on August 19, 2014 at 12:24 am
Reply

Stop NKT Ban on Traditional Gelug Protectors!!!
2

Sam Hoff on August 19, 2014 at 2:37 am
Reply

Dr. Nathan Hill said Phabongkha stated that only the Gelug tradition leads to enlightenment, and the other schools go to hell.

Dr. Hill said he personally read this in Tibetan.

Does anyone have any published English sources on this exact statement?
- 3
  
  tenpel on August 19, 2014 at 9:12 am
  Reply
  
  He referred to two letters by Pabongkha when I remember correctly. Namkha might know more. Lets see if he replies … It could be they are also in the book Dolgyal Shugden: A History.
  - 4
    
    namkhah on August 19, 2014 at 1:37 pm
    Reply
    
    I believe he’s referring to Pabongkha’s remark regarding the efficacy of Nyingma, Kagyu an Sakya lineages–”if they practice for a thousand years, (it is) as pointless as wishing for butter by churning water.”
    This quote from Volume Cha of Pabongkha’s Collected Works is also paraphrased in T.G. Dhontog Rinpoche’s ‘The Earth Shaking Thunder of True Work’.
    - 5
      
      namkhah on August 19, 2014 at 1:40 pm
      Reply
      
      Here is a longer version of the words of Pabongkha in his letter to the novice Nyu’u Tshalmo Trang:
      “Apart from the doctrine of Manjughosha Tsongkhapa alone, these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka– meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can’t recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective. Apart from the thunderous noise of their pretentious boasting about profound secret mantra, they don’t even know the direction of bliss and emptiness, luminosity, union and so on. Since for them liberation and path of omniscience does not exist, realization will not arise even if they practice for a thousand years, as pointless as wishing for butter by churning water.”
      - 6
        
        dharmaanarchist on August 19, 2014 at 2:48 pm
        Reply
        
        Mmh, has Pabonka even ever met some of his contemporary Nygingma realized masters? Like Khyentse Chokyi Lodrö, the 5th Dzogchen Rinpoche, the 3rd Dodrupchen etc?
        
        Dzogchen is definitely not nihilist. It does not negate conventional appearance and the mechanics of karma.
        
        And since when do you go to vajra hell just because an erroneous philosophical view?????? And since when is for example your compassion practice useless because you uphold a faulty philosophical view?
        
        Are there anywhere explanations by Je Dzongkhapa himself about the criteria when you end up in the avici hell?
        
        Is what Pabonka writes there even in accord with the teachings of the buddha?
        
        7
        
        namkhah on August 19, 2014 at 11:39 pm
        Reply
        
        I get the impression Pabongkha’s reference to Hashang is not only derogatory to the Dzogpachenpo view: Hashang (a Chinese monk) is a masked buffoon clown who entertains people at Losar and is the butt of a lot of whacks and abuse like Punch and Judy. I also read in The Arrow and the Spindle by Samten Karmay, an incident where Pabongkha reportedly dismounted and washed the hooves of his horse because he said the area they were passing through was contaminated by Bonpo monasteries, which doesn’t make any sense because there were also Gelug establishments in the area as well.
  - 8
    
    tenpel on August 20, 2014 at 1:09 am
    Reply
    
    Thank you Namkha.
    The two letters by Pabongkha are in the book I linked (at the end).
    - 9
      
      Sam Hoff on August 24, 2014 at 3:54 am
      Reply
      
      Is there any other published source besides that book? I would like to use it somewhere.
      - 10
        
        namkhah on August 24, 2014 at 12:06 pm
        Reply
        
        Sam, this is undated, but here it is. Sanskrit words are rendered without diacritics.
        
        A CASE TO STUDY
        By Tenzin Ragyal
        
        The office of
        His Holiness the Dalai Lama
        Dharamsala, H.P. INDIA
        […]
        With regard to Phabongkha’s primary motivation, his outlook towards
        other religious traditions and his objectives for starting this
        movement, they are all clearly inscribed in a letter that he sent to
        the then Chinese military general Lui Chun Tang of the Sichuan
        province of China. This letter could be found on page 451, 456 in
        the “Cha” section of Phabongkha’s volumes on “Miscellaneous Works”.
        For your convenience I have attached here copies of that letter in
        its English translation. If you study them you will be able to
        understand the core of the matter without any further explanations.
        It is in everybody’s interest to take a strong and appropriate stand
        and not to remain indifferent on the activities of Phabongkha’s
        followers and their cult groups and leaders like, e.g. NKT leader
        Geshe (self-styled) Kelsang Gyatso in England, Serkong Thritrul in
        Taiwan, Gangchen Lama in Italy, Drakgom Tulku in Nepal, Dema Gonsar
        in Tibet, Gonsar Rin-poche in Swiss and Dorjee Shugden Society in
        India and Nepal etc.
        
        The primary objective in providing this information is not to dig
        out what has happened in the past. It is to draw attention to the
        fact that even today, in this period of global religious harmony,
        some short-sighted and narrow-minded people and groups are actively
        adopting the path of fanaticism and religious intolerance. It is a
        task and responsibility of all of us to strongly discourage and act
        against such forms of religious intolerance and fanaticism.
        
        Tenzin Ragyal
        Dharamsala, H.P. INDIA
        
        1) A letter (Phabongkha) sent to the Chinese General, Lu Chu Tang in the Earth Tibet Year
        
        In these days most of the Emperors and kings misperceive the
        barbaric religion as the best religion and have turned their backs
        against the nectar of the Buddha’s teaching and opened the gate wide
        towards the lower realm for themselves and as well as their
        subjects. At such a time as a great leader and also because of your
        strong prayers and merits, you have respected only Manjughosh
        Tsongkhapa’s teaching lineage, which is the core of the Buddha’s
        teachings, and put it on the crown of your head and held it firm at
        your heart. You have thus spread and propagated the unsullied
        teaching in many provinces in-cluding your own and have sown the
        seed of the path of liberation. I am grateful to you and the more I
        reflect the more my mind is flooded with rejoice and admiration like
        the waves of oceans touching the sky. Thank you very much.
        Still on this earth many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity,
        Islam, Kongtse, (Confucianism ), Bon (ancient native Tibetan
        religion) etc. flourish and each of them claims their own system as
        the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the
        others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have
        the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions.
        Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a
        long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realm and no
        positive result will be achieved at all from them. It is only a
        deceptive word showing what is not a path as a path.
        
        Contrarily in the case of the Buddha’s teaching, it easily bestows
        the “State of Liberation and Omniscience”, closes the door of
        rebirth in samsara and lower realms and it is possible to eradicate
        completely the 84,000 classes of afflictive emotions and their
        propensities. In this teaching, without requiring much hardship,
        one can travel from a peaceful path to a peaceful fruit. Since this
        true teaching is always non-deceptive we should endeavour to make
        our life meaningful from a long term perspective and follow only the
        teaching of the Buddha. Although this teaching has four tenets, it
        is only the Prasangika Madhyamika which realises the unmistaken
        emptiness, which is free from the abyss of permanence and nihilism,
        and which is the ultimate and exact intention of the Buddha.
        
        Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like
        that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the
        Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and
        the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of
        Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms
        of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and
        torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in
        accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug
        School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation,
        the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one
        integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to
        enlightenment. Thus this system of teaching of Tsongkhapa is the
        heart essence of the Buddha’s teaching and is therefore like a
        pinnacle of the victorious banner. As such to uphold this teaching
        by oneself and to disseminate it to others is the best and far-
        reaching Boddhisattva way of practice. As a great leader you have
        done the best to spread this teaching in the province of China just
        as you have done in the past. And also in the regions of Kham you
        have restored and further developed the teachings through various
        means. I will be grateful for your continuous noble Boddhisattva
        conduct of upholding the responsibility of the Gelug School.
        
        1. Again a letter is sent to Lu Chu Tang in the Earth Rabbit
        Year
        
        Honest expression of the General presentation of Inner and Outer
        Tenets of the World.
        
        In general there are many religions in this world. Every follower
        thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly
        examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the
        worst and there is no other religion worse than these. The non-
        Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better
        than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to
        liberation. They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation
        and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation. It
        opens the gate to the lower realm. The so-called Bonpo is also not
        at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from
        achieving liberation it opens the door of the lower realm. Since
        Confucianism is also not the teaching of the Buddha it simply gives
        temporary happiness but not liberation. As all these systems are
        opposite to the Buddha’s teachings, leave aside achieving
        Buddhahood, they do not at all have the path to liberation. One
        cannot show even a single example of one who has achieved liberation
        after having practiced these faiths. Without exception most of them
        fall into the unfathomable lower realms. It is only Buddhism which
        is the path of liberation. Even in Buddhism, the compassionate
        Buddha Shakyamuni knew that if the profound and ultimate truth of
        emptiness is taught right at the outset, it would not be understood
        by the followers. Just as children are gradually taught, starting
        from the alphabet, in the same way at first easily understandable
        teachings are taught. Therefore he first taught the Vaibhashika
        Tenet System which explains grosser meanings of selflessness of
        persons. After that he taught the Sautantrika Tenet System which is
        more profound than the previous one. Then he taught the Mind Only
        School, which is again more profound and which teaches the grosser
        selflessness of phenomena. It is this school which Thangsen Lama
        propagated in China. After that he taught the Madhyamika Tenet
        System which explains the subtle selflessness, the ultimate view.
        Here also we have Indian Acharya/Masters Bhavaviveka;
        Shantarakshita, who even though they have entered the Madhyamika
        philosophy could not fathom the meaning of very subtle emptiness,
        the ultimate intention of the Buddha. Thus they are mid-dling
        Madhyamikas and they are known as the Svatantrika Madhyamikas.
        
        And we also have Indian Acharyas like Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti
        who had unmistakenly fathomed and realised the ultimate intention of
        the Buddha, which was trail-blazed by Nagarjuna, and they are called
        Prasangika Madhyamikas. Regarding the path of liberation and
        Buddhahood, there are two parts: wisdom and method. All those tenet
        systems below the Svatantrikas have found the unmistaken path of the
        method but have failed to realise the ultimate view which is the wis-
        dom aspect, and therefore they have not realised the ultimate
        emptiness but just a facsimile. Hence it is only the Prasangika
        Madhyamika System which realises the unmistaken subtle emptiness,
        the ultimate thought of the Buddha.
        
        There is not even a single individual who has realised the subtle
        emp-tiness without entering into the Prasangika System. In the
        absence of this realisation it is not possible to attain
        enlightenment. Therefore this Prasangika Madhyamika System, the
        system of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti is the best, the supreme and
        the peak among the four Buddhist Tenet Systems. In Tibet there are
        many systems of Buddhist teachings like Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya,
        Jonang, Bodong and others. All these are Buddhist teachings and
        they all have wonderful methods of accumulation of merits,
        purification of obstructions, meditation on deities and recitation
        of mantras. Through these practices one can achieve liberation.
        Therefore these are a hundred thousand million times better than
        Christianity, Islam and other non-Buddhist teachings. However,
        there is no system like that of Tsongkhapa’s, which is complete,
        unmistaken, profound and fast.
        
        Although each of the Tibetan philosophical schools feel and assert
        that their own philosophy is that of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and
        thus the philosophy of Prasangika, but, because of its very subtlety
        the followers could not realise the main intention of their
        preceding learned scholar practitioners and have thus erred. Most
        of them have become like the philosophy of Hvashang Mahayana. By
        becoming so one will fall into nihilism and will become the cause
        for hell. Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa’s philosophy, all
        others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this
        earth and be-neath the sky it is only the refined gold, like
        Manjushri Tsongkhapa’s system which is alone totally faultless in
        every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the
        conduct. It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the
        knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then
        one will be able to attain Buddha-hood within twelve human years or
        even in three years and three fortnights. This can be sustained
        through thousands of reasonings and references. The core of the
        teaching is the path to enlightenment alone. While this wonderful
        philosophy is existent many unfortunately adhere strongly to
        inferior teachings. Many such people are there in Tibet as well,
        which is a clear indication of lack of merit. The establishment of
        Tsongkhapa’s teaching, the core of the Buddha’s teachings, in your
        country is such a rare priviledge that even tens and hundreds of
        millions of merits accumulated by Lord Indra and Brahma cannot equal
        even a portion of this merit. This is really fortunate.
        
        “Presently, aside from Manjughosha Tsongkhapa’s view; the views of all Sa.skya.pa , bKa’.rgyud and rNying.mas are erroneous. What need to mention the consequentialist madhyamaka view, without even an autonomist [madhyamaka] or mind only view, [they] meditate a strictly anihilationist view similar with non-Buddhist extremists [mu.stegs.pa ] and Hashang Mahayana. If an anihilationist view is held, a result apart from going to Avici hell is not warranted. Also by not recognizing subtle sinking, meditation will be faulty…because liberation and the non-erroneous path of omniscience will not exist for them; for such as they, although saadhana is practiced for a thousand years, realization will not arise; similar with wishing for butter having churned water, the essence does not exist”. [T.G Dhongthog Rinpoche “Dus.kyi.me.lce, Timely Tongue of Flame”, pp. 117-118, Delhi: 1979]
        
        11
        
        tenpel on August 24, 2014 at 6:19 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you Namkha!
        
        Someone send me a link: the NKT made now their own version of SOAS and put it on YouTube, leaving out one panelist, guess who it is?
        
        12
        
        Sam Hoff on August 24, 2014 at 8:01 pm
        
        Of course they edited out a panelist. All their youtube videos are falsified.
        
        13
        
        Bristol Lad on August 24, 2014 at 11:35 pm
        
        http://youtu.be/XyMbSQwcOMM for Shugdenpas version of the Full debate (minus one speaker…) I guess she touched a raw nerve.
        
        14
        
        Sam Hoff on August 25, 2014 at 6:44 pm
        
        Well its another deception for Joanne’s list.
        
        15
        
        Sam Hoff on August 25, 2014 at 9:55 pm
        
        Of course the youtube channel “Dorje Shugden Tibetan Followers” is actually the NKT.
16

Beth on August 19, 2014 at 11:50 pm
Reply

Thanks for posting that. It was very interesting. Wish they had each had another few minutes.
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19

Tdamdul on August 27, 2014 at 12:18 am
Reply

So it was not a debate – Dr Nathan the moderator took notes and commented on the talks presented by the speakers. ALL GOOD

The point about HHDl having blamed the appropriation of Dhogyal for the downfall of Tibet.
Dr Nathan correctly mentioned that the discussion should take into account traditional and cultural Tibetan Buddhism as is known and practiced. It was Mao’s Communist PLA that invaded the country; and that tragedy is seen as our collective karma. The great 13th predicted misfortune and degenerate times for the nation and during his time He had also clearly put an end to this worship of the new ‘deity’. But it was back in full strength and even stronger after His demise.
- 20
  
  Chris Banigan on August 27, 2014 at 4:39 pm
  Reply
  
  Tdamdul: One view is that the protective deities of Tibet which secured the country for Buddhist civilization of the Yarlung dharmarajas and beyond, were neglected in modern times. You’ve probably seen the picture of the srinmo demoness pinned down at various significant geomantic branch locations like Samye, Lhasa Jokhang at the center and so on. This network was enhanced by the Chinese Princess Weng Chen, who brought knowledge of geomancy from China.
  Professor Gyurme Dorje interviewed HH the Dalai Lama about his recollections of the Jokhang:
  
  “When Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche arrived in Lhasa from Kham, following the civil unrest there in 1956, he came to see me, asking for the oral transmission (lung) of some short text. At that time, as spiritual means of protecting the security of Tibet he made a prophetic declaration that the Tibetan Government should construct an image of Padmasambhava in the wrathful form of Guru Nangsi Zilnon at the centre of the main hall of the Great Temple, with four stupas–one in each of the four directions of the Jowo Sakyamuni. Unfortunately, as you know, some of the five cabinet ministers of the day had a sectarian attitude and were disinclined to accept the advice of a great master of the eclectic tradition of Kham–particularly regarding Nyingma icons. So, the construction of the image and the four stupas did not materialize. No one paid proper attention to this. …Afterwards, when some officials reported this to Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, he commented “a regrettable mistake has been made! Now the Dalai Lama with some of his entourage will have to go to India!”
  So, on account of that malpractice on the part of certain government ministers, I still have some regret”
  
  –from Jokhang: Tibet’s Most Sacred Buddhist Temple
  by Gyurme Dorje, Tashi Tsering , Heather Stoddard, Andre Alexander, Ulrich van Schroeder
21

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