by tenpelOctober 19, 20149:12 pm

New website about the Shugden Controversy and the Shugden / Anti-Dalai Lama protests

There is a new website totally dedicated to the Shugden Controversy and the Shugden / Anti-Dalai Lama protests that contains information, clarifications and refutations of the key claims of the campaigning Western Shugden group (NKT/ICS). The site also includes some brief clarifying academic articles that highlight the background.

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1

joanneclark7 on October 19, 2014 at 11:16 pm
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Very good.
2

Khedrup on October 20, 2014 at 6:44 am
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Easy to access the information. Great for people not familiar with the issue who want an overview.
3

another on October 20, 2014 at 8:41 am
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“The website is offered by the Tibet Houses of New York, Delhi and Barcelona” DONT THINK SO!
THE FOOTER SAYS “while not responsible for producing this site or its content,” They probably have some idea of who produced it but wouldnt be so stupid as to put their heads above the parapet by declaring outright responsiblity-they know who theyre dealing with!
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  tenpel on October 20, 2014 at 10:23 am
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  I took that sentence out. Thank you!
5

Dorje on October 20, 2014 at 6:04 pm
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It’s okay but a lot of the information is about how the NKT is lying and misleading and not so much to explain the advice not to worship dogyal given by numerous lamas including the Dalai Lama. There are the ‘academic articles’, the partial translation of the Yellow Book and the article why dogyal worship is not like the Lord’s Prayer, but nothing new.
I would like to see new translations of dogyal texts, showing their violent sectarian nature. The only new text to be translated since the ’90s was Tsem Tulku’s people translating Trijang’s book, which also praises dogyal for killing nonsectarian Gelugpas, as well as killing Bonpos and attacking Nyingmapas. More of this, please. Kelsang told his followers to “ignore the Yellow Book.” Could
he be so dismissive and tell his students to ignore the violent sectarian teachings of his own lama? This is where the crux is, not semantic chatter about the Tibetan word for “ban.”
If Tibet House, etc. take this seriously, they would translate more texts to lay bare the nature of dogyal worship so those “Lord’s prayer” claims would rightly lose all credibility. A translation of Chadral Rinpoche’s book rather than just a Tibetan PDF would be a start. This whole issue would be dead if the all the works on dogyal by pabongkha, trijang, etc. had been translated into English back in the ’90s. No more English comment is needed. Translations are needed.
6

another on October 20, 2014 at 8:04 pm
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HERE BEGINNETH the false perception of this being a Tibet House product. AFAICS the author[s] have sought their permission to use the logos to give the site an air of authenticity -read the footer statement
“not so much to explain the advice not to worship dogyal given by numerous lamas including the Dalai Lama” -you need to go back to the site and check through it-there is lots of this
I agree about the need for a translation of Chatral Rinpoches text. BUT ITS 100S OF PAGES LONg-it wiould take months, if not years
Translations would help but just look how flippantly they dispense with the evidence of the Yellow Book. KG says ignore it and everyone just looks away-if this guy tells them to eat excrement, these people are so duped by their own fantasise and fears that they just go with it-a sickening lack of discursive wisdom-blind faith at its worst
What we need is for these poor fools to think outside the box……if they dare
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  Dorje on October 20, 2014 at 8:52 pm
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  It’s only 200 pages long. Not a massive book. Much longer texts have been translated. Or how about Pabongkha’s teachings on the dogyal life entrustment? Rigdzin Shikpo apparently said Pabongkha names specific Rimed lamas for dogyal to attack in these. Or Pabongkha’s sectarian attacks on the Nyingma school like the phabongkhapa’i slob ma’i dgag lan, three polemical works by students of Pabongkha attacking the philosophical teachings and practices of the Nyingma? http://tbrc.org/#!rid=W29252
  The point is, it was easy for kelsang to dismiss the Yellow Book because it wasn’t written by Trijang. Despite the fact that Zemey was Trijang’s closest student, the average NKTer had never heard of him apart from in relation to his book. Kelsang could not similarly say, “ignore the Music delighting the ocean of oath bound protectors”, it wasn’t written by a Buddha. Why should we believe it?” as he did the Yellow Book. It was written by his supposed ‘root’ lama. That’s the difference.
  Explaining the reasons numerous lamas disagree with dogyal worship is more important than getting into a tit-for-tat argument about accounts from India, in my opinion.
  - 8
    
    tenpel on October 20, 2014 at 9:08 pm
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    Explaining the reasons numerous lamas disagree with dogyal worship is more important than getting into a tit-for-tat argument about accounts from India, in my opinion.
    
    This is a point I also stressed so many times. The NKT has set up a drama where the poor Shugden followers would be oppressed by an omnipotent, evil Dalai Lama, and they totally ignore that so many eminent masters opposed this worship. To highlight how many and what masters also opposed this worship makes clear that the whole issue is not about the failings of the Dalai Lama (as the protesters make and made the world believe) but about the failings of this very worship.
    
    I insisted to insert in the EX NKT documents (like the declaration of ex NKT) that this point is been made. I really struggled for this. Just checking I see it was not inserted in the first declaration but at least in the second: “Masters of other traditions have also dismissed this practice after investigation.”
    
    It is also important to stress that the Dalai Lama is the highest spiritual authority (and not Pabongkha Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche) in the Gelug tradition (even if formally it is the Ganden Tripa). He speaks of faults in his own school and from a status where all respect and accept him as the highest spiritual authority (but of course people can disagree with him and do so) but he is in this position and should use this position to improve the Gelug school. And although the Dalai Lama cannot be compared with the pope in all ways (there are distinct differences) there are some points that can be compared, e.g. if the pope declares after investigation a certain cult in the catholic church as not in line with catholic principles, the catholic cult members unlikely would attack him of oppressing their religious freedom because it is expected that the pope has some authority in spiritual Christian matters and this is similar to the Dalai Lama in the Gelug school.
    
    BTW, the abbots and monasteries had asked the advise of the Dalai Lama first and then the investigated and found that the trouble they reported is based on Shugden worship. So he didn’t interfere, he does his job. That’s it.
  - 9
    
    Noname on October 21, 2014 at 6:22 am
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    The last scripts you mention are translated as addenda in the Dolgyal book
    - 10
      
      Noname on October 21, 2014 at 6:35 am
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      OOOOPS -wrong!
      Don’t you read Tibetan Dorje?
      Or have contacts who would do this?
      - 11
        
        Dorje on October 21, 2014 at 9:08 am
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        My Tibetan reading is very slow and usually accompanied by at least one dictionary. I have no contacts at all. I imagine whoever devised this website and whoever wrote the Dolgyal book has better contacts than me. Why just rehash the same stuff? Maybe we’ll have to wait for Tsem Tulku to translate more. He’s already sent Trijang’s dogyal Tibetan texts to Sharon Stone and Keanu Reeves. He should get his industrious cult members to translate more damning testimony from the dogyal cult. Reading Trijang Rinpoche glorifying the murders of Bonpos and attacking Nyingmapas gives some sense of what this spirit worship is really all about.
        
        12
        
        joanneclark7 on October 21, 2014 at 12:03 pm
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        The only problem with Dorje’s suggestion is that the Shugden community now have what Rabten calls their own sources. (e.g. “you have your sources we have ours”). This was his reply to Geshe-la’s scriptural citations at the SOAS conference. And we also know clearly that they have their own translators as well!
        
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        Dorje on October 21, 2014 at 5:54 pm
        
        I still don’t think they can just reject the words of Trijang and pabongkha out of hand. The nature of the dolgyal cult is what led to it being opposed. This nature needs spelling out with copious examples. It was tsem tulku’s translation of trijang’s book showed the violent sectarianism wasn’t limited to the Yellow Book. This stuff needs more exposure no matter who translates it.
        
        14
        
        Dorje on October 21, 2014 at 6:05 pm
        
        By the way, rabten is wrong. The nkt don’t have their own valid sources. Pabongkha and trijang are the sole sources of this cult. As ryan showed, the nkt follow the exclusivist sectarianism of their lineage lamas. They just dress it up to make it a little more palatable to a naive western audience. More translations would make this dishonesty less possible. If there was more translated back when kelsang did his interview with yvonne nilles, his lies rejecting the yellow book would have been so easy to refute. He has just benefited from the ignorance of his students. More information, backed up with scriptural evidence, would help remove this ignorance.
15

Dorje on October 20, 2014 at 9:25 pm
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HH Dalai Lama is the highest tulku in the Gelug tradition. As such he has authority on making judgements about which objects of refuge to rely on, etc.
My point has never been just to rely on the words of those that oppose dogyal worship. The words of those that supported it, with all their violent sectarianism, are enough to show that dogyal worship is bad news. The more variants from Pabongkha,Trijang etc. of “all other traditions are false. Dogyal kills Gelugpas lured away from Tsongkhapa’s pure tradition to follow these other false paths. Dogyal kills followers of false traditions that might oppose Tsongkhapa’s pure tradition”, the better. In this way, the dogyal followers are hoisted by their own petards.
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  jigmeyeshe on October 20, 2014 at 11:03 pm
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  I agree that these divisive texts exist – and NKTers aren’t ignoring it, though I was told to – I found a copy of the Yellow Book in an NKT centre office one day, a long time ago! But, the Shugden the NKT do is ‘cleaned up’, ‘sanitized’. So, there’s no identification with the traditional meting out of punishment on those who don’t agree with Shugdenpas. But there’s also no self awareness in the NKT Shugdenites, that they are doing exactly what they Yellow Book suggests – harming non Shugdenpas!!! But, the practices they do, as is, are insidiously, or psychologically violent, focused on ‘power’ over others (they talk all the time of ‘forcing’ the Dalai Lama to sign away the so-called ‘ban’.) and the people involved just don’t ‘see’ how the NKT has so much power over them in turn.
  
  So, how do we ‘get under the skin’ of these people? I think that this may be a karma that has to burn itself out – the NKT demon-strators don’t care about logic (the ones that do suddenly find themselves in conflict with other NKT followers), they only care about ‘doing what their spiritual guide wants’ as the highest value in their lives. If that happens to be shouting libellous accusations against His Holiness, they’ll do it. If it means lying, they’ll do it. If it means harassing others, they’ll do it. It doesn’t matter if they break the law (or almost!) or annoy people, they’ll do it. It’s the people who are attracted to them that we need to warn. Showing them the ‘Yellow Book’ and other wrathful evidence is so far beyond their experience, I doubt it would work. They won’t believe you. And, how, in the UK, are we going to ‘substitute’ the services that 48 NKT residential centres give to people culturally ignorant of Tibetan Buddhism who want to meditate?
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  tenpel on October 21, 2014 at 8:33 am
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  I agree. my point is also not to just rely on the words who oppose Dolgyal. My point just is, that he doesn’t hold a very heterodox view and that it is not surprising that he comments, advices and urges on spiritual matters. The Shugden campaigners give the image that the Dalai Lama would commit a major crime whereas what he does is rather something very natural and a thing he should do.
18

Namkhah on October 21, 2014 at 2:01 am
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I had to look up “hoisted by their own petards”, very funny
19

tenpel on October 21, 2014 at 8:30 am
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http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/chandigarh/shugden-followers-go-online-in-their-battle-against-dalai-lama/article1-1277546.aspx
- 20
  
  tenpel on October 21, 2014 at 11:14 am
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  BTW, the Brazilian pop star, Deborah Blando, mentioned in the Hindustan Times article, had a personal crisis and went to the NKT to get better! The type of “healing” she found there is now to see a person who has another opinion than the group as a “liar”, and to sing a song of her newly gained ‘Buddhist understanding’ …
  - 21
    
    dharmaanarchist on October 21, 2014 at 5:23 pm
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    I guess that’s the blessing you get when you worship a malevolent spirit.
    - 22
      
      another on October 21, 2014 at 6:57 pm
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      The girl will go far……and for a LONG time. Puppets of the propaganda division, innocent fools doomed to suffer for a seeming eternity, simply through blindly following the edicts of their ‘enlightened’ masters, without investigating for themselves.
      TRAGIC FOR ALL CONCERNED
      - 23
        
        tenpel on October 21, 2014 at 7:39 pm
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        I assume she will later regret it. Its sad but sooner or later she will learn. We all make mistakes …
  - 24
    
    tenpel on October 30, 2014 at 9:07 pm
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    Another victim of fanaticism:
    
    Deborah Blando, the Brazilian pop singer who went to the UK to study Kadampa Buddhism to have a peaceful mind.
    
    https://twitter.com/shugdentruth/status/527784155627917312
    
    So sad what the NKT and their misinformation make with people. I know what she feels. I once had the same feelings based on the misinformation and hate the NKT spread among its followers.
25

Sam Hoff on October 22, 2014 at 1:51 am
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Yet another rebuttal attempt that fails to mention the Dalai Lama does not control the government of India and that Gelug monasteries are private property.
26

another on October 22, 2014 at 6:19 pm
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SAM, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS IS THE SOLUTION TO ALL ILLS. YOU SEEM OBSESSED WITH THIS IDEA; WHY?
- 27
  
  Sam Hoff on October 22, 2014 at 10:05 pm
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  Because thats the whole crux. The Dalai Lama does not control the government of India or Britain.
  
  And Gelug monasteries are private property. Should Christian monasteries be forced to accept Vishnu worshippers?
28

Sam Hoff on October 22, 2014 at 10:11 pm
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If you have been to India (I spent much of my life there) then you would know this is the most obvious thing that comes to mind.
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  Noname on October 23, 2014 at 8:46 pm
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  Yes I have, so did I and no, it didn’t
30

Noname on October 23, 2014 at 8:51 pm
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And, BTW, your suggestion that the website is ‘ another rebuttal that Fails to mention the autonomy of the monasteries’ is wrong. Read the Are shugden monks refugees post.
So they DID mention it yet the problem persists-what now: back to the drawing board?
- 31
  
  Sam Hoff on October 24, 2014 at 4:57 am
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  The problem is that Geshe Tashi Tsering fell for the NKT trap at the SOAS Shugden conference.
  
  Tenpel and other NKT opponents also continuously fall for this trap.
  
  The issue isn’t whether the Dalai Lama used the word ban.
  
  The issue is whether the Dalai Lama controls the government of India, which he obviously doesn’t.

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