by tenpelSeptember 15, 201512:40 am

Is there no medical treatment for Shugden followers as Anti-Dalai Lama protesters claim?

ISC/NKT MISUNDERSTANDINGS ABOUT MEDICAL SERVICES IN THE TIBETAN MONASTERIES IN INDIA CLARIFIED

By Carol McQuire

The latest ISC/NKT leaflet ‘evidence’ of prejudice against Shugden practitioners states that the Shugden monks and families in India do not get access to proper medical treatment. This is not the case. The actual situation is more complex and culturally distinct to the medical system the ISC/NKT are accustomed to.

In the the images of discrimination section of the ISC leaflet there is a picture of a sign supposedly at the Drepung Loseling Clinic at Mundgod Tibetan Settlement.

This image caption from the new ISC leaflet is totally misleading. The ban from entry into the monastery has not relation to the claim that health treatment is refused for Shugden proprietors. — Screen shot from the new ISC leaflet.

These signs are unfortunate as they can be easily misunderstood; all this means in practice is that Shar Gaden and Serpom monks use the clinic of their own colleges – just like every other Tibetan monk.

Through fundraising there are now 5 new clinics for monastics all providing the same services.

Each of the large Gelug Monasteries there (Gaden Shartse, Gaden Jangtse, Drepung Gomang, Drepung Loseling) has its own clinic providing basic medical care. They all use their own clinics.

It’s Tibetan style: Sera Jey monks go to the Sera Jey Clinic, Sera Mey monks to Sera Mey clinic. Penor Rinpoche’s Nyingma monastery has its own hospital. Ganden Jangtse monks go to Jangtse clinic, Gaden Shartse to Shartse clinic.

Laypeople go to settlement clinics in either Bylakuppe or Mundgod, neither of which have signs at the moment.

Many monks prefer Indian GPs in the nearby towns to the clinics, as there are less wait times.

For anything beyond minor ailments all Tibetans are compelled to use Indian hospitals, which will treat anyone who can afford it, as the clinics are not equipped.

So the story that people are dying because of a sign at Loseling clinic is like most of the other stories the NKT/ISC present as evidence; inaccurate and misinformed.

As is so often the case, the ISC/NKT mix a little realism with exaggeration.

http://www.gadenshartse.net/clinic
http://www.dhonden.nl/e-hospital-clinic-ganden-jangtse-tibetans.html
http://drepunggomang.org/monastery-administration2/91-gomang-community-medical-store
http://lamaclinic.blogspot.co.uk/p/about-us.html
http://tibetanhealth.org/health-centers/
http://www.kunasz.com/FOTSI/TSI.html#HospitalsKharyak

Information by acknowledged academic authority

Notes on the Shugden protests by Robert Barnett
Protests against the Dalai Lama over Dorje Shugden – An interview with Robert Barnett
The Dorje Shugden Conflict – An interview with Thierry Dodin

Update 21/09/15

Chris Fynn: NOTE: IN RELATION TO THE ISC ACCUSATIONS THAT SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS HAVE NO ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE

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1

Dalai Lama protesters & Shugden followers – Propaganda unlimited | Tibetan Buddhism :: Struggling With Diffi·Cult Issues on September 15, 2015 at 2:04 am
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[…] Is there no medical treatment for Shugden followers as Anti-Dalai Lama protesters claim? 2014/09/15 […]
2

lobsang tsultrim on February 2, 2016 at 10:20 am
Reply

Whoever wrote this article, i beseech with palm folded, please don’t twist the fact. I am not shugden practitioner, but i had lived in gaden before i moved to US. In monastery , all the monks from other monastery than Loseling, such as gaden jangste, drepung gomang, even sakya monastery can go to Loseling clinic but not shugden practitioner. There is a clear discrimination against those who practice shugden. Anyway it is Tibetan issue, you westerners please stay out of it. Atleasts don’t twist the fact. For example, monk from jangste monastery, or even from sera monastery( which is several hundred Kms from looseling clinic) can go and get treatment at Loseling Clinic, but not shugden practitioner who just live few Kms from Loseling monastery.
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  tenpel on February 2, 2016 at 12:00 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you. The author is mentioned in the post.
  
  I agree with “Anyway it is Tibetan issue, you westerners please stay out of it.” On the other hand you Tibetans have involved us in this and this has created a big mess in the West already, so we have to go through your way of thinking, history and social structure to get a clear head.
  
  I agree also with “Atleasts don’t twist the fact.” I guess this wasn’t the author’s intention but since Tibetans like Kelsang Gyatso and his zealots have highly distorted the facts and other Tibetans are not very clear and mix up opinions with facts or tell only half of the facts etc etc, for us Westerners it is hard to get hold of the facts as they really are and easily errors can occur.
  
  However, I don’t have the slightest interest to twist facts nor does Carol have this. That’s why thank you for your comment. I will give Carol a note about your comment.
  - 4
    
    lobsang tsultrim on February 3, 2016 at 7:21 am
    Reply
    
    When i said” please stay out of it means” one need to live in monastery within Tibetan communities and the experience the discrimination. I had done that. Otherwise just at the comfort of being far way in west and then commenting about issue that one had not experienced leads to twisting of fact. I myself doesn’t practice shugden, i have studied entire teaching of buddha based on tsongkhapa’s commentaries and gained a wisdom based conviction that One can reach Buddha hood. I am so happy and grateful for that, i don’t want to be engaged in useless controversies, rather prefer to to have a meaningful life where i can practice what i have learnt through out my life. But when i see and witnessed the discrimination against shugden people, i feel very sad. I respect HH position on shugden whether or not it is a valid one. I also respect his decision to tell people about what he has found. But cutting material and religious relationship with shugden people, not letting them in your shop, forcing a mother to cut relationship with her son who follow shugden, not letting them to hospital or clinic just because one follow shugden. For me these are completely against the teaching of Buddha. And i had personally witnessed all these happened in India. How can one practice Boddhicitta when you cast out certain people just because of their faith. Shugden can be a buddha or not, who cares as long as you regard him to be Buddha, we should respect those faith. I personally don’t know about geshe kelsang but i respect him just because my most kindful teacher ( he was also teacher to geshe kelsang) once told us in big gathering in monastery that geshe kelsang had attained a certain path pertaining to Zokrim( completion stage). This is huge as one who is on any of zokrim path , he or she is either tantric Arya or on the verge of attaining it. Also complete state of Buddhahood is not far once one realized zokrim path. I on my own can’t confirm or deny, but it is difficult not to believe my teacher as geshe kelsang was said to have demonstrated his realization to my teacher during one to one teaching session, and asked about it, and my teacher confirmed him that to be a zokrim. I also read many books by geshe kelsang including Ocean of nector and joyful path. Both of these books are well written. Actually one of my friends , a vietnamese doctor very much preferred geshe kelsang’s book specially about tantra, and he told me the reason he liked them is very clear and easy to understand. At the end, i pray that one day shugden people and non shugden people, we all live , study and practice dharma and live peacefully. Ofcourse we can always debate when it comes to philosophical points or any other dharma issues, but no more discriminating by cutting relationship.
    - 5
      
      tenpel on February 3, 2016 at 11:55 am
      Reply
      
      Discrimination is not a good thing in any way. If you have studied the teachings, I guess you know also about the Vinaya and the Stick Referendum? Did you consider the rights of communities to ban destructive religious practices from their grounds? Rights are not only for one side of a party but for both sides. However, a divorce shouldn’t lead to discrimination. Who is “forcing a mother to cut relationship with her son who follow shugden”? Nobody. However, Shugden people are shunned, and there is a type of social pressure. The Tibetan society has to sort this out. I won’t involve myself in it, I care mainly for Westerners who were involved by Tibetans in their society and religious issues.
      
      With respect to respecting faith, respecting others yes, but I do not necessarily respect every religious practice like animal slaughter, kosher slaughter etc. and I think there is no need to respect actions you consider to be wrong. Similarly why should I respect a practice that invokes forces whose task is to kill and to harm those who practice non-Gelug teachings, which spreads fear and sectarianism? This is NOT in line with Buddhism. A Bodhisattva – as the Sutras say – receives, practices, teaches and transmits all the Dharmas there are in order to help sentient beings. That’s why I don’t respect Shugden practice but I respect sentient beings and accept that they follow / practice things which I consider to be wrong. However, I wouldn’t share my religious environment with someone who kills animals or who invokes a being that harms exactly those beings who do what I do – practicing Dharma from different Buddhist traditions. To take care to avoid a destructive spiritual environment is part of your spiritual path. Not to invoke spirits or ghosts and not to take refuge in them is part of the Buddhist refuge. One might risk – from a Buddhist pov – to be reborn as the servant of that ghost next life … Its not black and white the whole thing, its very complex and one needs to put oneself into the shoes of the other side too.
      
      I know the story about the Zokrim (completion stage) claim and investigated it too. To bring the winds into the central channel* can be done by Hindu Yogis too, there is no need for Bodhicitta to bring the winds into the central channel. Therefore the conclusion that Kelsang Gyatso is either a Bodhisattva or almost an Arya is erroneous, otherwise it follows all Hindu Yogis who can bring the winds into the central channel are either Bodhisattvas or “tantric Arya or on the verge of attaining it” which is not the case for those who don’t have Bodhicitta or the correct view of emptiness.
      
      * As the story goes: Zong Rinpoche assumed Kelsang Gyatso was able to absorb the winds into the central channel during a meditation session they spend together. Then the conclusion is, he must have attained Bodhicitta to have attained this, and then he is a Bodhisattva etc. But the problem here is, that even if the story is true and Zong Rinpoche was right, this argument misses to consider that the winds can be gathered in the central channel also without Bodhicitta, e.g. by Hindu Yogis. I asked a high Lama and Hotuktu about this and he confirmed this. Initially a friend of mine who practices also Hindu Yogi Techniques made me aware that Hindu Yogis can also gather the winds in their central channel. So you base your assumptions on fallacious logic.
      - 6
        
        tenpel on February 3, 2016 at 12:17 pm
        Reply
        
        BTW, the repeated pattern of behaviour of Kelsang Gyatso and his approach to put the blame on a single individual while not considering complex dependent arising at all is a clear indication that his understanding of emptiness maybe only intellectual. That he cuts off his followers from truly genuine Buddhist masters, Bodhisattvas, the monastic Sangha, and the vast and profound body of Buddhist teachings is an indication of a lack of compassion / Bodhicitta, a lack of the wisdom of individuality which is the basis of compassion. He invented his own three jewels. He as the Buddha, his teachings as the Dharma, and his naive and ill educated Western followers are the Sangha.
      - 7
        
        lobsang whatever on February 4, 2016 at 8:43 am
        Reply
        
        The stick and referendum was never initiated by the monastery themselves but at the command of HH Dalai lama. You can never equate shugden practice as destructive. During the course of three decades since shugden oracle lived at gaden monastery, he had given teachings and advices via medium. If one collect all these writings and compiled into books, it would run into several thousands pages. Have you ever read even one single page? I have read a lot, i have never come across even one words that is not dharma, that is sectarian, that is divisive. His writings were so much beautifully formed with full of Spiritual practice. If you wish a sample, i can send it to you but they are in Tibetan. According to his advices, he advocates practicing dharma purely, not mixing with others as a main practice. For example, if your main( trunk like) practice had been geluk, then it shouldn’t be nyingma or other sects, if yours is nyingma, then it shouldn’t be geluk. But regarding your branch practice, you can still practice nyingma while main practice is geluk. I had seen late zong rinpoche himself doing some nyingma ritual. Now regarding to zokrim, i won’t divulge detail as it pertains to secret tantra. There are two central channel, gross( tibetan term rakpa) and subtle( tramo). In order to gather wind into gross central channel by means of meditation, one doesn’t need support of Bodhicitta and emptiness wisdom. So there are many hindu yogis who can do that. But when it comes to gathering , entering and dissolving all winds into subtle central channel by means of meditation, one needs to have Bodhicitta and emptiness wisdom. The reason is that if winds are dissolve into subtle central channel through meditation , it is impossible not to activate wisdom wind within central channel, to activate wisdom wind ,bodhicitta and emptiness wisdom are needed. Those hindu yogis who meditate on central channel, they can realize similitude clear light mind but not the real clear mind which is the primordial mind. Anyway these matters are still debatable. We still need scriptural authority, actual realization to confirm these matters. Regarding scriptural authority, i have many( cant quote here) that practice that enter , abide and dissolve wind into central channel has to be Zokrim. Even though in the text, they don’t specifically mention subtle. The subtle or gross was mentioned by my most kindful, glorious master Thupten gelek whose kindness i can never ever repay for innumerable eons.
    - 8
      
      Brian on February 3, 2016 at 2:07 pm
      Reply
      
      If one knows English, it is not necessary to write in ‘broken’ English as if you have an strong foreign accent. You will have to provide clear proof that you are indeed ‘Geshe Lobsang Tsultrim’ as you claim and not an imposter.
      - 9
        
        lobsang whatever on February 4, 2016 at 8:09 am
        Reply
        
        Does it matter whether i bear the particular name? what matters is whether i am a Tibetan Buddhist monk or not as i have claimed to had lived in Monastery. For this, i assure you and let all buddha in ten direction as my witness. The reason why i can’t put my real name is the kind of backlash that would occur to my family in india. I don’t want to put them at the risk of being socially ostracized. Anyway you should be more concern about the content of my writing rather than mere name of writer. If you still insisted about my identity, then give me you telephone number via my email, truthadvocate21@gmail.com. I will call you and talk to you personally , then you will know wether i am imposter or genuine Tibetan geshe. Thanks
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  Brian on February 3, 2016 at 10:50 am
  Reply
  
  There is a Geshe Lobsang Tsultrim in the US, but it is highly doubtful he wrote this post (and the other), which both bear the hallmarks of cult propaganda. Identity hijacking is not exceptional but rather the rule for the social miscreants who attempt to deceive people in this way.. It is hard to believe the real Geshe Lobsang Tsultrim would be motivated to publicly support Chinese agents.
11

Indiawalla on February 2, 2016 at 2:56 pm
Reply

This is not what author said. The point is that monks prefer to go to clinics of their own monastery. in bylakuppe each monastery including shugden has their own clinic. Monks of course prefer to go to clinic of own monastery. Point is that shugden lies about ppl dying for no medical care is untrue, as any serious problem need to vo to indian hospital and of course they dont care about shugden. Author presented true situation but maybe specific detail in each place vary.
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  lobsang tsultrim on February 3, 2016 at 6:42 am
  Reply
  
  Thats not true, In gaden monastery, many monks form gaden shartse prefer go to clinic run by neighboring monastery , Gaden Jangste, simply because the doctor at jangste monastery have been a very good doctor. Even many monks from shartse go there to get treatment. But shugden followers are not allowed. Ofcourse shugden followers are not dying because of not getting treatment as they can still to go nearby Indian city Hubli to get treatment at any Indian hospital. The point is about emotional suffering they undergo as they are not allowed at clinics at those monasteries simply because of their faith to shugden This is gross unfair.
  - 13
    
    tenpel on February 3, 2016 at 11:27 am
    Reply
    
    As far as I understand it, the clinics are part of the specific monastery and therefore run and maintained, paid etc by it. So it is their practice of generosity and they have the right to decide for whom they offer the service, right? As far as I get it, this seems to be not uncommon for religious institutions (see Interview with Robert Barnett).
    
    From a religious / Buddhist pov, if I am devoted to the Dalai Lama and people give me money and support because they have faith in the Dalai Lama and me and I use the money to help those that practice things that harm the Dalai Lama, am I not a hypocritical and act wrongly? The monasteries are religious institutions. Barnett:
    
    The exile monasteries in India that have posted orders rejecting Shugden practitioners appear to be in a similar situation: their rulings have narrow application to membership of that institution, they are directly relevant to its function, and one chooses whether or not to become a member of that monastery rather than of another. This is not the case when a shop posts a discriminatory notice: you enter the shop voluntarily, but your religious views are of no consequence to the function of the shop. So that would appear to be discrimination; it can’t be justified, and one would hope that the exile leadership would actively educate people not to do that.
    
    However, hard to say from an outsider perspective. (Though I lived for four months in Drepung. The whole thing is very complex. I think a clean clear cut – like a divorce – how it has been made now, seems to be the best currently.) Shugden monks have now their own monasteries, facilities, money and can also run their own monastery clinics.
    - 14
      
      maik108 on February 3, 2016 at 2:27 pm
      Reply
      
      More generally Tenpel, don’t you think that you go to rather great lengths to excuse the actions that Lobsang mentions…? Also I find it interesting that Brian instantly calls him a cult-impostor because he speaks about discrimination against Shugdenpas.
      
      I agree with you completely that the NKT lot have a gross view of the situation and no interest in discovering its cultural subtleties. But to me, as a human being, stick referendum or not, there is clearly discrimination going on. To what extent, now that is a different question. Also I gather that it has improved in the last few years.
      
      Your comment about Gyatso creating his own three jewels with an ill-informed western sangha is rather arrogant. I would hope you retract it. Perhaps you meant to speak of certain individuals, and only with regard to their activities in the ISC..?
      - 15
        
        Brian on February 3, 2016 at 9:56 pm
        Reply
        
        Maik, I spent several years in India, particularly in the Tibetan camps in the south where I have relatives and friends. I do not think you are speaking from what you have seen directly, but rather from reports to Tsem’s cult website from people like Duke Okkelberg a convicted felon who absconded with donations. You should go down there and see for yourself as you are badly misinformed.
        I still maintain this ‘Geshe’ poser here is bogus, it wouldn’t be the first time.
        
        16
        
        tenpel on February 4, 2016 at 1:48 am
        Reply
        
        Someone else assumed that the “Geshe poser” is from the Tsem cult. We had so many NKT or Tsem people who pose under different identities and claim to be genuine Tibetan lamas or victims that it is hard to believe anybody who claims to be such …
        
        17
        
        maik108 on February 4, 2016 at 8:41 am
        
        So then in other words, there can be no discussion? It seems that what you are both saying, is that anyone suggesting they have witnessed or been themselves a victim of shugden discrimination is necessarily a liar or impostor. In other words: anyone who disagrees with you is wrong (either due to ignorance or because they are lying).
        
        Tenpel, you often wrote about how people from NKT/ISC made silly accusations about you being a CTA spy, an impostor working to clear the Dalai Lama’s name… You are right, that is ridiculous. But now it appears you are doing something similar maybe.
        
        Brian, you’re right: I haven’t lived in India, only traveled there. I have two acquaintances who lived there at different times, for about half a year recently, who both attested to seeing the kind of discrimination Tsultrim alludes to. Who knows, maybe they are lying, or maybe they are Chinese spies; but that is like saying you are a CTA spy, or that you are lying. Do we have any proof that you lived there? And if so, proof of ‘non-discrimination’?
        
        As for the ‘Tsem website’: many of the documents posted there are not their property; I linked these in a post last summer: documents that strongly suggest ongoing discrimination enforced by the CTA and so on. While the website is ‘dodgy’, it doesn’t change these documents. Similarly, NKTword is a dodgy website, but it doesn’t change the few facts that are to be found in people’s testimonies.
        
        It is, of course, very easy for you to say that all documents indicating discrimination against Shugdenpas (Stick referendum or not!) are fake.
        
        18
        
        Brian on February 4, 2016 at 3:35 pm
        
        Maik, the lying ‘monk’ has left his email address. Why not look your brother practitioner up? I am finished with him.
        
        19
        
        maik108 on February 4, 2016 at 4:14 pm
        
        Thank you, o noble one. You are my brother as well, by the way. And my mother.
        
        20
        
        lobsang whatever on February 5, 2016 at 3:18 am
        
        Now i know the kind of person you are. Brian. Good bye.
        
        21
        
        Brian on February 5, 2016 at 7:03 pm
        
        Whatever: You stole a respectable Geshe’s identity so we know what kind troll you are–but it does not matter–you have absolutely no credibility now. Tenpel should not delete your comments but keep them up to demonstrate this fact.
        
        22
        
        lobsang whatever on February 6, 2016 at 3:09 am
        
        There are so many Geshe lobsang tsultrim all over the world. This doesn’t constitute stealing any identity. The name are not copyrighted. I can even use name as” Obama” it doesn’t amount to any stealing. If i mentioned Obama , the US president, then it does constitute identity theft. If i bear name of Geshe lobsang Tsultrim, resident teacher at such and such center, then it is another matter. BTW i had received Geshe degree after finishing my study over 20 years. Tenpel seems quite unbiased and more concerned about the content of what i say rather than the identity of me. Anyway even if he delete , this forum lose one genuine contributor. i have no ill motivation , my only reason to hide my real identity is to avoid any backlash to my family in India. Tenphel had asked before about my claim that a mother in India had to cut her relationship( under duress and pressure from people) with her monk son, never to see him again because the monk had decided not to abandon shugden. I had witnessed this . The name of monk is Phuntsok, his mother lives in New Camp no 9, Tibetan colony Mundgod. Go and check . I don’t need an iota of credibility from you, Brian.
        
        23
        
        tenpel on February 6, 2016 at 9:23 am
        
        Thank you Lobsang for the clarification. I lived for four months in Drepung and did a retreat at the retreat place near Ganden. Sounds reasonable/non-fake what you write here. I am very sorry for the mother and her son!
        
        I am sorry for the distrust/suspicion you are facing here too.
        
        Distrust in public forums about this issue is nowadays sadly common because especially NKT – but also Tsem people – have posed under Tibetan identities, posing as Geshes etc and invented stories which were not true just to fuel their own propaganda and to hype the whole thing. A NKT teacher even went so far to pose under a known journalist name claiming to be him – a real identity theft … – These tactics and our own experiences with it led towards a great amount of distrust and suspicion …
        
        Nowadays my first reaction is if someone claims not to be NKT, I don’t believe it, I doubt it but try to be open that I might be incorrect and try to give the person a chance to prove that I am not correct in my doubts. Sadly, past events rather confirmed that suspicion and doubts were the correct response. Based on the experience I (and others made), it is hard to open up for any new situation with a grade of openness that does not give space for projecting too much onto the other side.
        
        I apologize for any inconvenience.
        
        24
        
        lobsang whatever on February 6, 2016 at 11:03 am
        
        Thanks for your understanding, tenpel. Initially i had the impression that this blog is solely against shugden and NKT, but then after going through many other articles shown here, i realized that the forum is more concerned about how Buddha dharma is taking it’s root here in the west and particularly the misusage of Guru- disciple relationship by certain masters and their attendants in the west. I have met many teachers through out my dharma journey life, and one of the characteristics of genuine teacher had been that they never either directly or indirectly demand any devotion and singlepointed faith from disciples. Devotion and faith is formed in the mindstream of disciples automatically through master’s infallible teaching, kindness, simplicity and their virtuous behaviors. Genuine teacher never discourage disciples from getting teaching from other genuine masters. If teacher or their attendant is demanding absolute faith , using “reliance on guru practice” where ones guru has to seen as Buddha , then i am pretty much sure that they are not genuine. HH Zong said that guru-disciple relationship has to be nurtured and maintained by both guru and disciples. if guru misuse this by threatening to disciples that if they don’t heed to such and such demand, they will go to hell, then guru himself will go to lower realm. Regarding shugden, i had relied on him for many years. I once had the opportunity to be in the room with shugden alone. Choyang Kuten( medium) of shugden used to receive many letters from western students( probably NKT people) and he would call me translate them into Tibetan. Most of the letters were addressed to shugden. So one day, he called me to his room, he sat on throne and handed me all the letters i had translated and told me to recite Gaden Lhagyema. As soon as i start to recite few lines , Shugden had already entered Choyang kuten. It was strange feeling for me cause just a moment ago, there was choyang Kuten and me , and now me and shugden alone. Shugden said to me, whats up. So i gave him all the letters in Tibetan, there are severals which he just had a glimpse and then gave answer to all letters without looking back again. I remember one of the letters was from Thupten Gyatso NKT member. The answer given by shugden to all these letters would sway anybody’s mind cause they seemed really good and spiritual . Anyway i had given up shugden practice in 2008 because i was given choice between him and HH Dalai lama. So i had to choose HH because he is my Lamrim guru. Even shugden once said in april 1996( just after shugden ban in march 1996) that whoever disparage HH Dalai lama is sowing the seed to reborn in lower realm cause HH is chenregsig. For me HH Dalai lama is like a heart of Tibetan , and the way he contribute to dharma by means of encouraging monks and lay alike to study dharma and engender wisdom based conviction, not just remain satisfied with the mere faith, is something that is unique. HH never demand blind faith from his disciples, on the contrary he encourages critical mind that search, investigate and study dharma in-depth. For me this is the most precious.
        
        25
        
        tenpel on February 6, 2016 at 3:18 pm
        
        Thank you Lobsang la. I totally agree with you:
        
        I have met many teachers through out my dharma journey life, and one of the characteristics of genuine teacher had been that they never either directly or indirectly demand any devotion and singlepointed faith from disciples. Devotion and faith is formed in the mindstream of disciples automatically through master’s infallible teaching, kindness, simplicity and their virtuous behaviors. Genuine teacher never discourage disciples from getting teaching from other genuine masters. If teacher or their attendant is demanding absolute faith , using “reliance on guru practice” where ones guru has to seen as Buddha , then i am pretty much sure that they are not genuine.
        
        The experiences of many with respect to Shugden and Kuten Lama have been obviously good (at least on the surface/first glance). I met Kuten Lama too and he appeared to me to be a very humble, kind and nice person. I really liked him. However, I read also a transcript of a Shugden invocation at Manjushri Instutute were Shugden himself demanded utter devotion to the guru. Initially Shugden told very good spiritual things but then suddenly he hardened and stressed an obedience that was over the top. (Sadly I don’t have this manuscript anymore.) The same demand of utter guru obedience – that was really unhealthy – was what I encountered with allmost the Shugden lamas I’ve met.* I don’t deny that Shugden can have positive influence or effects, the question is how the relation forms you in the long run and how much this supports really your spiritual path. In the case of Kelsang Gyatso – one of his strongest devotees – I can only say Shugden did neither protect him nor his followers from spiritual harm. However, I don’t want to go into detail but I made up my mind regarding this – not because of what His Holiness said but based on my own sufferings and experiences I started to investigate the whole subject and discussed it also with masters or practitioners from different Tibetan Buddhist traditions.
        
        Its a tragedy that the NKT protest against HHDL who is at least a practitioner of the two Bodhicittas. (I don’t know if he is Chenrezig or a Bodhisattva but for sure he is a serious practitioner of the two Bodhicittas and of the Sutras and Tantras.)
        
        Interesting to read:
        
        Even shugden once said in april 1996( just after shugden ban in march 1996) that whoever disparage HH Dalai lama is sowing the seed to reborn in lower realm cause HH is chenregsig.
        
        ——
        
        For me HH Dalai lama is like a heart of Tibetan , and the way he contribute to dharma by means of encouraging monks and lay alike to study dharma and engender wisdom based conviction, not just remain satisfied with the mere faith, is something that is unique. HH never demand blind faith from his disciples, on the contrary he encourages critical mind that search, investigate and study dharma in-depth. For me this is the most precious.
        
        Thank you. _()_
        I couldn’t agree more!
        
        —-
        Thank you for your comments and patience!
        
        —-
        * Or such lamas, like Dagom Rinpoche (a great lama!), supported my own very abusive and misleading teacher, Dechen, and contributed thereby to the continuation of abuse.
        
        26
        
        tenpel on February 6, 2016 at 3:29 pm
        
        Thank you also Lobsang la for seeing my concerns behind the blog. I appreciate that you had a closer look and changed your mind. Indeed “the forum is more concerned about how Buddha dharma is taking it’s root here in the west and particularly the misusage of Guru- disciple relationship by certain masters and their attendants in the west.”
        
        Thank you for seeing that.
        
        27
        
        jigmeyeshe on February 8, 2016 at 1:07 am
        
        Thank you for this hearfelt post, Lobsang Whatever
        
        28
        
        Indiawalla on February 6, 2016 at 5:51 pm
        
        Problem :: unfair things like lobsang whatever said above do not get fair considered because shugden party mixes them with so many unproven allegations of murder or outright untruths like the exposed fake photo of hand with finger chopped off promoted on fb. So lack of taken seriously is partly their
        fault. Present real things with evidence only for progress on this problem.
        
        Unprovable stories and mean attacks against any critic and callibg them muslim or whatever means ppl less likely to pay attentiin to genuine unfair things.
        
        29
        
        tenpel on February 7, 2016 at 11:26 am
        
        very true.
        
        30
        
        Brian on February 6, 2016 at 6:22 pm
        
        ‘Whatever’ writes:
        “my only reason to hide my real identity is to avoid any backlash to my family in India.”
        So as a non-dolgyal practitioner, that can only logically mean you are afraid of violence from the Shugden people, right? That is understandable and the only possible conclusion if you are indeed telling the truth. It does not explain why you have disclosed other details about your person that could easily identify you if anyone was actually interested.
        
        31
        
        lobsang whatever on February 9, 2016 at 7:13 am
        
        The backlash i mentioned is not from shugden practitioner , it is rather from non-shugden Tibetan people. Non shugden people have been cutting material and religious matter with shugden people since 2008, not vice versa. The details about myself are known to very small circle of my friends. We have been dharma brothers and i have full faith in them that they won’t betray me. Even though i no longer practice shugden; but i will defend any thing that is not true about shugden. I also defend anything that is not true about dalai lama as well. If shugden demand utter guru faith and obedience , atleast he is not demanding to himself. Thats big difference. Even in most Lamrim, under the section guru reliance, there is a mention of this. As long as guru doesn’t demand for himself, its quite healthy. Since shugden and lamrim assumed that we have already relied on qualified guru, and qualified guru only gives virtuous command, and hence we need to be obedient. Have shugden ever said that one must obey any command of guru even if it is non-virtuous ? No. In 2008 when non shugden people started to cut relationship with shugden people , Geshe kelsang invited choyang Kuten to England and later urged him to stay with him. For choyang kuten, this would amount to abandoning Dalai lama, so he and Geshe kelsang had major disagreement over this issue, and it had been almost like kuten lama was asked to leave. So he came back to India , and seek an audience with HH dalai lama and asked to guide and protect in every lifetimes to come. HH was also very pleased to receive such a gesture from a person who was arguably the most closest persons to shugden. I quote here what HH said to kuten lama during the audience ” the issue about dharma protector( he neither addressed dhogyal nor shugden) , i have to say is due to Buddha dharma in general, personally i have nothing against him”. Geshe kelsang and kuten lama had no contact since then. But later when Kuten lama was near to his death, just one day before, Geshe kelsang suprisingly called , and even though he didn’t speak directly to kuten lama he spoke to attendant called jamyang and said ” please tell uncle kutenlak, not to worry, i had a very auspicious dream where you(kuten lama) was walking up the mountain and upon reaching the summit HH Trijang Dorjechang was there standing with Khatak( white scarf)in his hand to receive you”. When jamyang conveyed the msg to kuten lama, he was vey pleased and died that day.
        
        32
        
        joanneclark7 on February 4, 2016 at 1:43 pm
        
        Also, I think it is an important points that Lobsang Tsultrim point out. First, this is, indeed, Tibetan business. So why has the Western Shugden community brought it to the West????? There would be no debate here except for that!
        
        And I believe it is impossible for us as Westerners, to understand Tibetan culture sufficiently to make a determination about the amount of discrimination existent– and whether or not, for example, what is called “discrimination” is only a reaction against possible negative behaviors by Shugdenpas (such as the triple murders which motivated the signs in shop windows). Also, it is impossible for us to understand because Tibetan culture acknowledges the real existence of harmful spirits and their real powers and effects on people’s lives– Tibetans fear these spirits– but when this situation is translated into Western protests, within a culture where spirits are seen as superstition, the whole thing loses its perspective completely. So Lobsang, you need to sing your song about it being “Tibetan business” to the Western Shugden community but not here! And I totally agree with you that we are not equipped to really get to the truth of things@!
        
        After saying this, I do know someone who recently spent some time in a monastery in Southern India and his impression was that relations between Shugdenpas and non-Shugdenpas had improved significantly. There does seem to be an effort being made by the CTA to improve things on their side– and on the Shugdenpa side, there does seem to be some contentment with their conditions. So isn’t that the whole goal? Why is that never acknowledged Maik? The ISC have their all or nothing DEMANDS that leave no room for real life, where improvements are often made gradually.
        
        33
        
        maik108 on February 4, 2016 at 4:15 pm
        
        Joanne, I agree with you completely. Nowhere on this blog have I defended the actions of the ISC.
34

john6747 on February 4, 2016 at 9:47 am
Reply

Any comments regarding the article on Tsem’s site about ‘identity discs’?
http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/badge-of-shame.html
- 35
  
  tenpel on February 4, 2016 at 4:03 pm
  Reply
  
  had a quick look on it. it seems they made an identity button for whom belongs to the monastery in order to be able to identify who does not belong to it. likely, there have been cases where non members used the facilities. i think there is nothing spectacular or unusual by this approach. both sides made a separation and should respect each others boundaries and places …
  - 36
    
    maik108 on February 4, 2016 at 4:22 pm
    Reply
    
    If the story is true, and identity badges are being enforced, that puts a whole new negative slant on the issue. It would be completely preposterous, clearly we can all see that? Buddha would be spinning in his cave…
    - 37
      
      tenpel on February 4, 2016 at 5:20 pm
      Reply
      
      If people are on a campus who don’t belong to that university and use the facilities exclusively meant for those subscribed to the university study program would this behaviour be correct (in a mundane sense but also especially for monks, who have a rule not to take what was not given)? In such cases the leadership has to find a mode to cope with the situation. However, I don’t know the background and intentions nor views behind all if it.
      - 38
        
        john6747 on February 4, 2016 at 5:39 pm
        Reply
        
        The above screenshot includes these words. ‘The badge ( description: golden background with green coloured logo of Sera Jey) will be a symbol of identity for & of Sera Jey monks, and also a distinguishing identity from Dolgyal propitiating monks.’
        Below is an extract from Sera Jey Facebook page.
        ‘Sera Jey Monastery We have no authority what other monasteries and people think about it, but we at sera jey monastery unanimously adopted in monastery’s council, that all the bona-fide member monks of Sera Jey have to wear the badge.This badge is strictly for Sera Jey Monks only. we never say others who don’t use badge are propitiating Dogyal.’
        Bit confused really. The badge is to identify a Sera Jey monk from a Dolgyal monk but then they claim they don’t say ‘others who don’t use the badge are propitiating Dolgyal.’
        
        39
        
        tenpel on February 4, 2016 at 8:41 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you. Do they say why they do this? Could you ask them?
        
        40
        
        tenpel on February 4, 2016 at 11:03 pm
        Reply
        
        It is well known there are many non Shugden monasteries besides Sera Jey in the area, Sera Mey, Namdroling, Sakya, Kagyu Nalanda etc. These non-Shugden monasteries in same area won’t use a badge. So not wearing the pin does not equal to a DS connection. It mainly indicates who belongs to Sera Jey. So this gives a distinctive identity to the monastery association and maybe it makes the admin easier?
        
        However, the language in the letter is rather unfortunate. The question is why they did this and what events preceded the decision for the pins?
        
        41
        
        lobsang whatever on February 5, 2016 at 3:15 am
        Reply
        
        This is started by Sera Jey, and soon other monastery will follow. And then only shugden monks will be left with no such badge. The motivation is bad, i am so sad that such discrimination has creeped deep into monastic communities. Before 1996, all monks in three great monasteries were living very harmoniously , even with Nyingma monastery near by.
    - 42
      
      noname on February 4, 2016 at 11:20 pm
      Reply
      
      Requiring campus inhabitants to wear an ID tag and sewing stars on Jews clothes: the same or totally different. The answer is clear. Nevertheless, cult apologists worldwide will construe and portray this as being ‘ just like the Nazis’ yawn.
      - 43
        
        tenpel on February 4, 2016 at 11:26 pm
        Reply
        
        Here is what Carol found out via monks from Sera:
        
        44
        
        maik108 on February 5, 2016 at 8:17 am
        Reply
        
        Hi Tenzin/John; I don’t really understand this badge… is it a badge to be worn by non-DS practitioners of Sera Jey only? Or is it worn by both but both wearing different badges?
        
        Yes I agree, would be very interesting to find out what brought this on. I somehow doubt it was the reuters article or the fear of Chinese spies.
        
        45
        
        john6747 on February 5, 2016 at 9:55 am
        
        Hi Carol. Tenzin and Malk…….. I agree it is useful to be able to identify who is entitled to the services provided by the monastery. It is a common feature in this country to carry an I.D. card on a lanyard or in some other prominent position. As I understand it, the people entitled to use the facilities of Sera Jey, already have I.D. cards. My question here is not over the need for proving your I.D. to access the services but over the need to, ‘ indicate that the Sera Jey monks had nothing to do with the protests against HHDL or Chinese funding’, to the wider community. The perceived need to do this must indicate there may be some ‘hostility’ within that community toward non Sera Jey members. This is an observation, and not borne from full knowledge of the ‘facts’. Carol, maybe you could ask your on the spot informant?
        
        46
        
        tenpel on February 5, 2016 at 10:01 am
        
        Good to investigate the background. Also good to investigate, if there is hostility, what triggered it … Its important to first understand the full context and background of an action before judging it. If this is done and one is unbiased the judgement will be fair(er).
        
        47
        
        jigmeyeshe on February 5, 2016 at 1:53 pm
        
        ‘If’ there is hostility?? I find his conversation absurd. For instance – are we supposed to ‘go for coffee’ here in Brighton with people who have spent days, even weeks, shouting abuse at His Holiness the Dalai Lama in some of the most beautiful cities of the UK – Oxford, Cambridge – in the main streets of London – and think, ‘Oh, how wonderful we can be friendly with these people’?
        
        Please put your questions about ‘hostility’ and ‘freedom’ and ‘prejudice’ within a box called ‘realism’. Otherwise you just become people sitting in an ivory tower pronouncing their ‘valid criticisms’ and presenting such a ‘high moral stance’ in a vacuum that has nothing to do with reality.
        
        I would say that most of the people posting on this thread have not been presented with the weeks, days, hours of relentless abuse shouted at anyone wishing to hear His Holiness the Dalai Lama teach Dharma. I, for one, would not like to be ‘associated’ with these acts.
        
        I think that a few clear boundaries may be helpful especially for people who live so near to each other, as the monasteries are in Bylakuppe. I would certainly like a few more boundaries here in Brighton – this weekend we are faced with hundreds of NKT followers who have rented the largest conference venue near the beach for three days of NKT events. Generally I cannot socialise without encountering NKT followers. A counsellor I was once given attended the local NKT centre. A Mindfulness course I went on had a ‘drop in’ follower of the NKT. Do I suffer from ‘prejudice’? Am I ‘hostile’? I am subject to ongoing online and ‘live’ harassment. I wish for privacy and I wish to relax. For this reason I am simply trying to avoid people who, the last time I saw them, had their mouths open shouting whilst they danced in ‘Tibetan Buddhist’ robes to the rhythms of what I can only call ‘military salsa’. I can wish them well. But I would prefer to live a life free from the ambiguity and stress of always ‘checking’ who I am speaking to in this city.
        
        Surely we should be getting the Shugdens to stop harassing people. Will questioning the decisions of a majority ‘on the ground’ help? I don’t think ‘analysing’ and ‘criticising’ how the Tibetans see fit to manage their internal affairs is helpful when we know almost nothing of the conditions ‘on the street’ there. How can we be ‘objective’ observers if we are half way around the world and almost entirely ignorant of the conditions that provoke these ends? Don’t the Tibetans have the right to run their own affairs? Surely we should be looking more at how the NKT run theirs? And what provokes them to go so far in alienating other people to what could be a ‘reasonable’ cause but somehow, never ends up being? And why not?
        
        48
        
        tenpel on February 6, 2016 at 9:58 am
        
        For me as a monk hostility is a nogo area. This has nothing to do with an ivory tower, its part of the practice. However, I totally accept if people have other focuses or stress other things.
        
        For instance – are we supposed to ‘go for coffee’ here in Brighton with people who have spent days, even weeks, shouting abuse at His Holiness the Dalai Lama in some of the most beautiful cities of the UK – Oxford, Cambridge – in the main streets of London – and think, ‘Oh, how wonderful we can be friendly with these people’?
        
        It depends. I would feel uncomfortably to do that but on the other hand it would be a great training for my mind. So I would decide based on the situation and my states of mind (strength/weakness) what to do. In general, the Vajrayana stresses, not to be outwardly friendly with those who hate or ridicule your guru (because this gives them a bad sign like as if you were accepting their behaviour) but inwardly you should feel love the texts say. This means you have to work on your hostility or aversion. When Kelsang Pagpa saw me at Pisa airport he waved friendly with his hands as if we were friends. It wouldn’t have cost me a penny to wave friendly back but I restrained because I was thinking I give him the wrong sign. I ignored him because I was thinking it is better he gets a sign that I disapprove his behaviour. However; I check if I feel hostility or aversion against him and won’t tolerate it.
        
        For me this is matter of my reality and my practice. If I accept hostility and aversion and even make justifications for it, how can I work on it and free my mind of these types of very human but negative responses? In general I think any monk or nun should work too on their hostility and aversion. Why? Because what is the reason of being monk or nun and not working on the mind but rather finding reasons why to accept such states of mind?
        
        Of course, the Tibetans have to find their own ways how to fix and how to deal with it. I said this many times.
        Read what I wrote:
        
        Good to investigate the background. Also good to investigate, if there is hostility, what triggered it … Its important to first understand the full context and background of an action before judging it. If this is done and one is unbiased the judgement will be fair(er).
        
        This just asks for first putting yourselves into the shoes of others and fully acknowledging / getting aware of the context. There is no moral judgement included – not even if hostility is bad or not. The whole sentence has nothing to do with an ivory tower but rather asks to leave the own shell of the ego and to let go the prejudices and to first understand the situation and the other side. What I wrote is exactly what I wrote also with respect to the self-immolations:*
        
        I would like to ask those who wish to form an opinion, to do this carefully, to first take time to fully investigate the background otherwise one risks to elevate oneself over others based on a narrow minded ethical point of view, and this mode of thinking would easily go into the direction of an unfair discrimination of the Tibetans. (Westerners have this tendency – and I think Stephen Prothero might have stepped into this trap too – to place themselves higher than others based on their assumed superior ethical views without understanding the complex background of events and other cultures.)
        
        * I read this article two days ago because it was recommended by a Tibet support group and I had forgotten it already though I wrote it myself. So it seems, there is a consistency in my approach I think.
        
        —–
        
        I totally agree sometimes clear boundaries are better for both sides, there is not the slightest doubt about it. That’s why I think the “divorce” in the monasteries was better than continuing to follow a live and let live approach. But even in the range of clear boundaries as a Dharma practitioner one has to work on one’s hostility and aversion. But if there is no boundary and if there are too many wounds then it will be extremely hard. So what to do in such a case? I think, if you cannot move to another place or change the situation, then the only way is to work even harder on the mind because otherwise it becomes unbearable and too painful.
        
        49
        
        maik108 on February 6, 2016 at 11:51 am
        
        I think it would be good for the NKT – and this I mean seriously – if supporters of the Dalai Lama would stage loud protests at their Southern Dharma Celebration. I often asked them, ‘how would you feel if you went to see Geshe-la teaching and couldn’t hear him due to slanderous chanting happening outside’? Perhaps holding up such a mirror could be helpful.
        
        ….I’m always very pleased to have coffee with anyone, here in Brighton 😉
      - 50
        
        john6747 on February 10, 2016 at 9:03 am
        Reply
        
        http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/coloured-wristbands-for-asylum-seekers-blasted-as-totally-inappropriate-by-community-leaders/
        
        51
        
        jigmeyeshe on February 10, 2016 at 4:01 pm
        Reply
        
        Perhaps we should tell the organisers of Glastonbury Festival that they are displaying deep prejudices and hostility against the poor who cannot afford to pay for entry) by asking the revelers to wear armbands.
        
        52
        
        john6747 on February 11, 2016 at 8:19 pm
        
        ‘Perhaps we should tell the organisers of Glastonbury Festival that they are displaying deep prejudices and hostility against the’…… Shugden protesters?
        Carol McQuire. ‘Actually ‘on’ private property there is no problem. Such as at Glastonbury – where the local security removed the NKT/ISC followers from just below the front stage.’
53

john6747 on February 7, 2016 at 10:30 am
Reply

My comment was related to the community in India and not Brighton. The introduction of the badge is an attempt to ensure only Sera Jey monks access the facilities provided. This indicates the Sera Jey policy to be one of exclusion. That is their right. I presume if any non bona fide persons attempt to access these facilities, they will be escorted off the premises?

‘ I find his conversation absurd. For instance – are we supposed to ‘go for coffee’ here in Brighton with people who have spent days, even weeks, shouting abuse at His Holiness the Dalai Lama in some of the most beautiful cities of the UK – Oxford, Cambridge – in the main streets of London – and think, ‘Oh, how wonderful we can be friendly with these people’? ‘

In reply to the above, the answer is yes to the first part, and, perhaps not ‘friendly’ to the second.
‘I would say that most of the people posting on this thread have not been presented with the weeks, days, hours of relentless abuse shouted at anyone wishing to hear His Holiness the Dalai Lama teach Dharma. I, for one, would not like to be ‘associated’ with these acts.’
You were aware before you attended the events that protests were going to occur. It has been made clear the NKT/ISC had as much right to be there as you. I know there were some actions by members of NKT/ISC which were considered to be unacceptable.
‘I think that a few clear boundaries may be helpful especially for people who live so near to each other, as the monasteries are in Bylakuppe. I would certainly like a few more boundaries here in Brighton – this weekend we are faced with hundreds of NKT followers who have rented the largest conference venue near the beach for three days of NKT events.’
What boundaries would you suggest? As for the event in Brighton, are you suggesting the NKT/ISC should not be allowed the opportunity to rent a conference venue for a legal activity?
Also, will you be demonstrating at the conference venue like some have at NKT local centres?
‘ A counsellor I was once given attended the local NKT centre. A Mindfulness course I went on had a ‘drop in’ follower of the NKT.’
Do you want the counsellor suspended or the ‘drop in’ follower vetted before attending a mindfulness course
‘Don’t the Tibetans have the right to run their own affairs?’
Yes, they do.
‘Surely we should be looking more at how the NKT run theirs?’
Don’t they have a right to run theirs?
‘Please put your questions about ‘hostility’ and ‘freedom’ and ‘prejudice’ within a box called ‘realism’. Otherwise you just become people sitting in an ivory tower pronouncing their ‘valid criticisms’ and presenting such a ‘high moral stance’ in a vacuum that has nothing to do with reality. ‘
If you poke a cobra with your finger it is likely you will be bitten. Poke him with a long stick and you are safer. Maybe realism is understanding that if you live in a community where there are people you disagree with, it is to either engage in dialogue if possible or ignore them. If they break the law, then there are avenues of redress.
- 54
  
  maik108 on February 8, 2016 at 9:49 am
  Reply
  
  John raises many good points that relate to a broader issue within this blog: the whole freedom of speech issue. Many survivors have gone straight up to the door of, for example, Bodhisattva Centre, distributing leaflets or handing them black katags; at other times, they have stood outside with banners and placards.
  
  I support them, I think it’s their right. But:
  
  J.yeshe’s message subliminally calls for some kind of Buddhist segregation within Brighton – as an example, I imagine – and a refusal by the council to allow the NKT to rent a room at Brighton Center. Why? Because they were protesting against the Dalai Lama? Aside from such a propsal being an impossibility (thankfully), it is a sign of hostility. Of course the NKT, ISC etc have every right to protest against the Dalai Lama and they have the ‘right’ to exaggerate or lie. If we are debating about what’s right or wrong, ethical or unethical, we can do that. Exposing the ISC, their motives and lies is a positive thing. But if we wish to speak about ‘rights’, the supposedly democratic vote on banning the Shugden practice remains questionable in terms of ‘rights’ and freedom of speech. If we broaden the scope of the issue, perhaps there is a breach of charity law to be found within NKT actions.
  
  The rest is all within everyone’s right to express themselves.
  - 55
    
    jigmeyeshe on February 8, 2016 at 3:39 pm
    Reply
    
    At no point was there a statement by me saying that the NKT should not rent a room in Brighton Centre, Maik. So you add the word ‘subliminal’ to then talk about ‘hostility’. Is this fair? The ‘reason’ given for my complaints was not simply to do with the protests – it is ‘how’ the protests are done and the views surrounding them. And the general dismissal of any ‘survivor’ account as ‘nonsense’. There is a good deal of hypocrisy (as well as secrecy) in the NKT world. I remember one person so offended and upset that we had done a protest ‘outside his home’ – Bodhisattva Centre – whereas their protests ‘outside teaching venues’ was perfectly acceptable! Both are legal.
    
    I was merely stating that boundaries can be healthy and how I would wish to have more of them – of course, legal ones – where I live. Why can wishing for good boundaries be ‘hostility’? Let’s look at this. Boundaries can create safe areas and reduce conflict. Boundaries have borders. Secrecy and gossip crosses boundaries – and because there is so much secrecy there is a lot of gossip in the NKT! That isn’t healthy. The NKT cross boundaries in many ways that are within the law, but only just. They are fascinated with the ethical ‘border’ lines. They like to stand on them. Such as shouting from the gate of the football stadium in Aldershot which made it difficult to hear the teachings as well as the presentation by the Mayor of Aldershot. As you know, ‘justice’, ‘fairness’ and the ‘law’ do not necessarily flow together.
    
    I was also complaining that their constant ‘crossing of boundaries’ can be very tiring when you live in the same city. I should therefore go into more detail as to what I undergo ‘on the street’, shouldn’t I? One day. The definite hostility I receive. Shall we meet for a coffee in the Red Roaster? That’s where I have met other NKT persons to chat. They often go there.
    
    Of course there is a breach of charity law if ‘the NKT’ is seen to be engaging in ‘political protests’. It’s against their constitution – the NKT-IKBU’s Internal Rules! That’s why the NKT teachers are so keen to do ‘damage management’ with the public and say that any association between the NKT and the ISC has ‘no sense’!!!
    - 56
      
      jigmeyeshe on February 8, 2016 at 4:11 pm
      Reply
      
      And to continue the issue of the ‘boundary’ – the NKT wish the boundary with the ISC to be as wide as possible (and ‘who’ is the NKT anyway?). However, it seems like an issue of ‘name only’ – the classic NKT phrase to describe their view of emptiness. The ISC has a different ‘label’ therefore it makes ‘no sense’ to connect it with ‘the NKT’ as all the senior teachers of the NKT have nothing to do with ‘the NKT’ when they protest, right? [They forget their stipends and we all know that no NKT Resident Teacher would get away with weeks of paid holiday from their teaching duties at NKT centres if ‘the NKT’ didn’t agree!]
      
      The second interesting boundary is that between the senior NKT teachers and His Holiness the Dalai Lama. They frequently try to make that boundary as small as possible – this is where the ‘offence’ and ‘danger’ to His Holiness lie. For Tibetans close to HHDL it is within living history that ‘Shugdenpas’ are connected to murder and the purpose of coming close to HHDL to simply say ‘Stop Lying’ is, in the least, questionable.
      
      So, I would ask you – let’s look at the NKT and think about ‘boundaries’. The Tibetans in Bylakuppe used boundaries to lessen conflict. If there is any possible means of bridging anything in these contentious issues it might come from clarifying exactly ‘what’ the NKT are doing in terms of their boundaries – with their own students, with the Tibetan system, with their ‘project for World Peace’ via constructing NKT Temples in ‘every major city’ in the world! (That used to be in splendid view on the main page of kadampa.org but the intentions don’t seem to have changed.) It is that ‘proselytising boundary’ that is limitless that is the real NKT agenda, isn’t it? I have yet to find any other ‘Buddhist’ organisation that gives so little to its students and so much to the ‘world’.
      - 57
        
        maik108 on February 9, 2016 at 9:13 am
        Reply
        
        Hi Jigmeyeshe. In your first post you wrote:
        
        I would certainly like a few more boundaries here in Brighton – this weekend we are faced with hundreds of NKT followers who have rented the largest conference venue near the beach for three days of NKT events. Generally I cannot socialise without encountering NKT followers. A counsellor I was once given attended the local NKT centre. A Mindfulness course I went on had a ‘drop in’ follower of the NKT. Do I suffer from ‘prejudice’? Am I ‘hostile’? I am subject to ongoing online and ‘live’ harassment. I wish for privacy and I wish to relax.
        
        Was I misinterpreting this? Perhaps, if so I apologize. But then you will need to explain what you mean by boundaries. You also need to define rather closely what you mean by ‘NKT followers’. As you know, they are people from different backgrounds, views, motives, interests, etc. Furthermore, how much ‘into the NKT’ does someone have to be for you to impute upon them ‘NKT member?’ Am I an NKT member? And practically, what would you suggest? That NKT members in Brighton wear a Shugden badge or something like that?
        
        I will be open to your argument. For now, based upon your above statement, yes I think it is prejudiced.
        
        You speak again of the NKT’s incorrect ‘mere name’ notion of emptiness. We have discussed this elsewhere and I posted various teachings on emptiness that clearly show a correct understanding of emptiness. These have not been challenged yet. You will need to show exactly what you mean.
        
        There is not the slightest indication that the ISC are a threat to HH Dalai Lama. Slanderous? Yes; annoying as hell? Yes. The charity breaches come in the form of money being moved from one cause (the NKTs) to another (the ISC). I agree with this because I have heard about it. But if I’m honest, I also have no proof of it. Do you?
        
        I’m happy to meet you (Red Roaster is fine…rather slow though ;). My only request to you, having read your posts, is that you try to impute ‘human being’ on to me instead of ‘NKT member’. Am I to assume you are Carol or Linda…?
        
        58
        
        Brian on February 9, 2016 at 3:26 pm
        Reply
        
        Both Maik and Whatever (the pathological liar) are trying to overwhelm this forum–meant to encourage healthy critical thinking–with irrelevant and trivial cult verbal diarrhea.
        Happy Losar, everyone.
        
        59
        
        tenpel on February 9, 2016 at 10:13 pm
        
        Brian, what makes Whatever a “pathological liar” for you?
        
        60
        
        Brian on February 10, 2016 at 1:57 am
        
        ‘Whatever’ clearly deceived us about his identity from the outset. This begs the question: what else are you fibbing about?
        He claims his family is under threat of violence from Gaden Phodrang or CTA, which makes no sense since he claims to be non-traitor and non-dolgyal cultist…this simply does not add up!
        And thirdly, am I the only person who doubts his account of being in a room with the Dolgyal god himself who asks him (and I quote) “What’s up?”
        Give us strength.
        
        61
        
        tenpel on February 10, 2016 at 2:15 am
        
        Thank you. Since I didn’t follow the discussion it is impossible to make up my mind regarding this. I hope the reader can make up his own mind when going through the comments …
        
        62
        
        maik108 on February 10, 2016 at 8:24 am
        
        Tenpel, the only problem on this particular thread is the hostility and hatred that keeps emanating from ‘Brian’. If you look closely, you will see that Brian has only ever retorted with personal attacks based on his own superficial opinions of people.
        
        Brian, where is your healthy, critical thinking?
        
        63
        
        lobsang whatever on February 10, 2016 at 9:54 am
        
        Why you are worried that the forum is overwhelm with discussion. Thats a good sign. It is said that a loser debater will always try to attack the person. Where is your logic, Brian, it seems that your mind is clouded by your hatred towards NKT and shugden people. If you had read my post carefully, you wouldn’t say nonsense thing to me. I said even though i no longer practice shugden, nevertheless i will defend shugden if something is said about him which is contrary to logical reasonings and my own experience. One become the target of social outcast just by trying to defend shugden even though one doesn’t practice. Also i didn’t said that my family is under threat. What i said is they can face backlash if non- shugden people come to know that their son is related to shugden. Also i never said about the threat from CTA or gaden Phodrang, i simply said non-shugden Tibetan people. I never said Dhogyal as god, don’t you know that Buddhism doesn’t accept the concept of god? “whats up” being said by shugden, may be i translated wrongly. In tibetan term he said ” Gare Yinpa”. Tibetan term “Gare yinpa” can be translated as ” what this is” or what’s the matter” but i found whats up to be more correct translation. I no longer wish to engage in discussion with you from now, this is my last response to you. There is saying in monastic debate system that ” i don’t fear 100 adepts but i do in regard to one fool”.
        
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        jigmeyeshe on February 10, 2016 at 4:17 pm
        Reply
        
        Maik. Boundaries = respect for each person’s point of view. In Bylakuppe monks who do not wish to worship Shugden in Sera Mey are no longer fined for not wanting to – they simply stayed put in Sera Mey while the Shugdenpas created their own monastery from part of those same installations. There is now little conflict.
        
        I have never said the NKT should not follow their own practices or rent rooms, etc. What is exhausting is their constant proselytising and promotion of ‘Dharma’ and ‘Mindfulness’ when all they promote is ‘NKT Shugden Dharma’ and nothing to do with what registered ‘Mindfulness’ courses do!
        
        I wished for more ‘boundaries’ as in respect for other points of view. I see little respect coming from you, Maik, for my point of view. I have never said I am ‘hostile’. I do not consider a request for respect to be a sign of ‘hostility’ nor ‘prejudice’. If I dislike the practice of Shugden and do not wish to engage in it, does that mean I am ‘hostile’ and full of ‘prejudice’? Does everyone HAVE TO like Shugden or we are ‘hostile’ and full of ‘prejudice’? That is exactly where the boundary needs to be – anyone has the right to not like Shugden or the relentless proselytising of the NKT under false pretences (no Vinaya but they wear Tibetan robes, etc…). Anyone has the right to ask questions. But the NKT ethos is for those who question to be told they are ‘free to leave’ and in many circumstances they are told to leave as they are ‘troublemakers’ – due to their ‘inappropriate’ questions.
        
        I suggest you insist that the NKT tell you where Kelsang Gyatso is and how he is, for instance.
        
        I also used the words ‘NKT followers’ – you changed this to ‘NKT members’ (which has a specific meaning in NKT terminology – NKT members are all the NKT centres and the Resident Teachers of those centres plus a few more NKT top dogs). I have never considered anyone in the NKT to be less than a ‘human being’. I also don’t impute enemy.
        
        I am tired of the lack of respect they continually show. They are ‘within their rights’ to shout in the street for 8 hours and try to disturb people going to Dharma teachings as much as possible. Tibetans and others are ‘offensive’ if they deliver a letter and chant mantras. Others on here seem to think that anything other than ‘approval’ is ‘prejudice’ and ‘hostility’. Let’s put the dividing line where it should be. In the middle. Not veered towards NKT prejudices that ‘see’ the NKT as being the perfect ‘Modern Buddhism’ for everyone. Beyond criticism.
        
        65
        
        maik108 on February 11, 2016 at 1:34 pm
        
        Respecting other people’s views is of course very necessary. I don’t see how the word ‘boundary’ applies, but fair enough. Yet the bulk of your message is somewhat confusing to me. You said:
        
        What is exhausting is their constant proselytising and promotion of ‘Dharma’ and ‘Mindfulness’ when all they promote is ‘NKT Shugden Dharma’ and nothing to do with what registered ‘Mindfulness’ courses do!
        
        My first question to you, how does this exhaust you? How does it harm you or anyone else in any way? As you keep saying yourself, not everyone has to agree with them, with the Shugden practice, etc.
        
        Second question: How is all they promote ‘NKT Shugden Dharma’? Explain what you mean by this. It simply is not the case. What is ‘Shugden Dharma’? And give examples of them promoting such a thing. Unless they are giving a Shugden empowerment, all of their ads, classes, courses etc are not promoted with Shugden.
        
        I am trying to understand you, not disrespect you. Sorry if you feel disrespected. Your comments are not making much sense to me. Of course your dislike of Shugden is not disrespectful or prejudice… where did you get that? Who said that it was? Of course, there are many non-Shugden people who equate Shugdenpas with untrustworthy, criminal, fraudulent Buddhists; Even Tenpel has said so much on some posts. Your tone on Shugden and those who practice it is quite clear. This is one step beyond a simple dislike and refusal of a certain practice. It is a prejudice: pre-judging a group of people based upon one’s own (limited) opinion.
        
        But nonetheless, you are completely entitled to this opinion, it’s fine.
        
        Your comment about the NKT’s false pretense because of their robes does not make sense because: a) they are completely honest and open about their lack of full ordination according to the Vinaya; and b) anyone can wear red and yellow robes.
        
        I agree with you about the NKT being very poor at responding to people’s questions, doubts, investigations, etc. I have contacted the Head Office twice since the summer asking about Geshe Kelsang’s condition, whereabouts and activities. I was told he was ‘fine and you can still send him a message via email here’. Of course this is answer is unsatisfactory and they should be far more open with their followers regarding Gyatso.
        
        All of us are entitled to loud, bold opinions. I won’t argue with you about the quality of the protests which I myself am strongly against. I also don’t find a visit to an NKT centre by your group offensive. Obviously many of them will find it offensive, just as you get offended by them shouting during Dalai Lama’s visits. But if you are feeling offended by what you deem to be false advertisement by the NKT, what about the false advertisement from the CTA, or what appears to be such? It seems there is still a deal of unrest in India over the split. So there will be more debate, discussions, protests, etc.
        
        I think it might be useful for you or anyone else getting offended by all of this to not let it affect you in such a way.
        
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        john6747 on February 11, 2016 at 8:39 pm
        
        Carol McQuire said on We Need To Talk About Shugden…..’Linda Ciardiello, a former NKT member who left the organisation…..’
        
        Jigme Yeshe said…’I also used the words ‘NKT followers’ – you changed this to ‘NKT members’ (which has a specific meaning in NKT terminology – NKT members are all the NKT centres and the Resident Teachers of those centres plus a few more NKT top dogs).
        
        Maybe Jigme and Carol should consult?
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      john6747 on February 9, 2016 at 9:11 am
      Reply
      
      Are you talking about physical boundaries? I quote you…. ‘ Let’s look at this. Boundaries can create safe areas and reduce conflict.’ A safe area for you would mean a restriction for someone else if there is a physical boundary.
      You say that at no time did you say the NKT should not rent a room in Brighton, however, you linked boundaries and the NKT renting rooms in Brighton…I quote…’ I would certainly like a few more boundaries here in Brighton – this weekend we are faced with hundreds of NKT followers who have rented the largest conference venue near the beach for three days of NKT events.’
      It is difficult to know from this where your suggested boundary would be. Designated areas within Brighton or not allowed there at all?
      If you are talking about non physical boundaries such as individual or group behaviour, that would depend on the people involved to examine their own actions and consider the effect those actions have on others. The official voice of the NKT relays many sound bites related to this. However, if you want to know what someone thinks, watch what they do.
      
      I quote……..’And to continue the issue of the ‘boundary’ – the NKT wish the boundary with the ISC to be as wide as possible (and ‘who’ is the NKT anyway?). However, it seems like an issue of ‘name only’ – the classic NKT phrase to describe their view of emptiness.’
      
      This extract is from, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari …
      
      ‘Unlike lying, an imagined reality is something that everyone believes in, and as long as this communal belief persists, the imagined reality exerts force in the world.
      
      This is why people began collectively to imagine the existence of limited liability companies. Such companies were legally independent of the people who set them up, or invested money in them, or managed them.
      
      Over the years, people have woven an incredibly complex network of stories. Within this network, fictions such as peugot not only exist, but also accumulate immense power. The kinds of things people create through this network of stories are known in academic circles as ‘fictions’, or ‘social constructs’ or ‘imagined realities’. An imagined reality is not a lie.’
      
      The NKT is a Limited Liability Company.
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        john6747 on February 9, 2016 at 5:15 pm
        Reply
        
        ‘So, it’s tiring having so many NKT lovers in town! My comparison was that it seems a healthy situation to have boundaries set down in Bylakuppe – which makes for a more peaceful set up – as all current reports tend to show’
        
        ‘I am talking about an ‘invasion’ of NKT activity that is exhausting – how to ‘get away’ from them with this incessant promotional expansion?’
        ‘ My comments about Brighton and the difficulties I encounter stem from the expansion of the NKT’s activities in a town where most people would be disgusted and horrified that the NKT teachers harass and revile HHDL.’
        
        How are these comments to be interpreted?
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joanneclark7 on February 7, 2016 at 1:13 pm
Reply

Lobsang Whatever– while I agree with you about this issue being “Tibetan business,” I’m afraid I’m going to have to agree with Brian about feeling a little distrustful of your identity. After reading through your comments, I’ve noticed that your English has changed/improved dramatically– and the humor of “Lobsand Whatever” is a little off-course with your original (non-English) tone. There is also not a ring of consistency about your ideas either. I’m not going to argue about it, it’s no big deal except that you might have come on this thread to spread some “evidence” of persecution and so I just wanted to place a note of doubt around all of that.

Usually I just take people as they appear– like Maik said, it’s not good to disparage/doubt someone’s honesty just because of their ideas, but in this case, the story about Shugden made me shiver and it really didn’t ring true, so I’d like to put that doubt out.
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  tenpel on February 7, 2016 at 11:52 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you Joanne. I didn’t follow the discussion so it seems I have missed the point of Lobsang Whatever’s transformation?
  Thank you for sharing your observation and thoughts and for following the thread/discussion. I lack time to keep an eye on the flow of events here.

	Tenzin Peljor on The Clear Light of Kelsang Gya…
	Tenpel on Website Invites People to Expl…
	Mike on The Clear Light of Kelsang Gya…
	Vincent Fletcher on The Clear Light of Kelsang Gya…
	Molly on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…
	Lena on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…
	Lena on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…
	tenpel on Karmapa Agrees to Multimillion…

ISC/NKT MISUNDERSTANDINGS ABOUT MEDICAL SERVICES IN THE TIBETAN MONASTERIES IN INDIA CLARIFIED

See also

Information by acknowledged academic authority

Update 21/09/15

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