Buddhism, Rigpa

by tenpelJuly 22, 20178:54 pm

On Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche’s Response to the Letter From Eight Former Rigpa Students: Has Samaya Been Broken?

I was distressed to read Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche’s (OTR) response to the recent letter by eight former, long-time Rigpa students regarding Sogyal Lakar’s abusive and unethical behaviors. This response, published on his website, seems to be initially about a comment that one of the signatories of the letter, Sangye Ngawang, made on Facebook. However, in the process of responding, OTR addresses what he “has heard” about Sangye and the other seven signatories “turning against” Sogyal Lakhar.

Perhaps OTR didn’t actually read the letter and its stories of suffering and harm. Perhaps that’s why he spoke at length about Sogyal Lakhar’s high standing in Tibetan Buddhist society and failed to mention any sorrow that students have suffered from being beaten and sexually assaulted. Perhaps that’s why he chastised Sangye and the others, saying that it was too late now for them to “turn against” their lama and that they had definitely broken samaya. Essentially he told the courageous eight signatories of the letter that they were going to hell.

This is brutal to the extreme. I believe it is also seriously misguided. For one, the writers were clearly motivated by one thought alone—to help mitigate future harm against students. They were not acting out of self-interest or ill will or even disrespect. They were also acting out of a sincere desire to protect the Buddha Dharma in the West. It was their (correct) belief that Sogyal Lakhar’s unethical and abusive behaviors were leading students astray and harming people’s understanding of the Dharma. Further, the tone of the letter was measured and calm as they called for Sogyal to please hear them and help restore faith in the sangha. They were asking for reform within the sangha. Is this ‘turning against” Sogyal? I think not.

I truly hope that other teachers who have taught at Rigpa will step forward now and help the sangha with better compassion and clarity. But just to be perfectly clear about OTR’s brutal assertion about Sangye Ngawang’s samaya and karma, here is a wonderful instruction from HH Dalai Lama about this subject and about sexual abuse as well. These instructions were given to a group of Western Buddhist Teachers (WBT) in 1993.

WBT: Many students are afraid of breaking samaya—the commitment and bond with their guru—if they speak openly about what they perceive to be abuse. Does a teacher’s abusive behavior destroy the samaya and release the student?

HHDL: I don’t know. Although the guru has in a sense broken the samaya, that does not allow the student to break it as well. If the guru kills, that does not mean I can too! We shouldn’t emulate bad examples! We should respect the common perspective of the world in terms of what is right and wrong. Earlier I spoke of the situation with my two regents. Even though I have deep faith and respect for my teachers and consider them high spiritual beings, I did not hesitate to criticize their behavior because those actions were wrong no matter who did them. I didn’t speak out of hatred or disrespect, but because I love the Buddhadharma and their actions went against it.

It is essential to distinguish between two things: the person and their action. We criticize the action, not the person. The person is neutral: he or she wants to be happy and overcome suffering, and once their negative action stops, they will become a friend. The troublemaker is the afflictions and actions. Speaking out against the action does not mean that we hate the person. For example, we Tibetans fight Chinese injustice, but it doesn’t mean we are against the Chinese as human beings, even those who are ruthless. In meditation, I try to develop genuine compassion for these people while still opposing their actions. Thus, we may criticize a teacher’s abusive actions or negative qualities while we respect them as a person at the same time. There are still some beneficial aspects of the guru. A mistaken action doesn’t destroy their good qualities. If you criticize in this way, there is no danger of hellish rebirth as a result. Motivation is the key: speaking out of hatred or desire for revenge is wrong. However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong.

WBT: There is much discussion in the West about the appropriateness of sexual contact when the two partners do not have equal power or status in the relationship. What is your opinion: are there times when sexual relationships between a Buddhist teacher and their student could be appropriate?

HHDL: It may happen that an unmarried teacher meets an unmarried student while teaching. If the relationship develops in a normal way with mutual agreement and mutual respect and they decide to marry, it is fine. When two people in a relationship treat each other equally, there is no difference in power or status during sexual intercourse. The teacher is not on a throne then! However, if the teacher is with one student one month and another the next, that is not right. Also, imposing or forcing sexual contact is wrong. So is misusing the idea of dakinis by saying things such as “You have signs of being a qualified dakini,” or flattering the student, “You have very great Dharma potential.” Women should not be afraid to say no!

WBT: In the West many professionals are thinking deeply about methods to use in cases of abuse. Are there Asian methods for dealing with abuse and for helping the involved parties?

HHDL: In the case of monastics, if any of the four root vows—to abandon killing a human being, stealing an object of value, sexual intercourse (heterosexual or homosexual), and lying about one’s spiritual attainments—is fully transgressed, that person must leave the monastery and is no longer a monastic. Aside from that, I do not know of any institutional methods for dealing with other cases.

All forms of abuse are against the general Buddhist rule. If an individual does not listen to the Buddha’s instructions, it is doubtful that they will listen to ordinary people like us. Earlier I suggested that when a teacher is clearly acting unethically and students have tried to discuss it with them but without result, then the only recourse is to publicize it in the community. I assume the teacher would feel ashamed and embarrassed and would decide to alter their behavior. I welcome your ideas on this topic.

Some people nearly give up their faith and respect for the Buddha if they are sexually abused by a Buddhist teacher. This makes me very sad. When it is explained that such actions are against the general Buddhist rule, their doubts in the Buddha and the Dharma decrease. As explained before, if a teacher gives instructions that contradict the path, you should not follow them. If anyone wishes to see scriptural sources to substantiate this or other points, we can show them.

As Buddhists, our motivation must be clear and sincere. Because there is a moral crisis in developed countries, we must explain what is proper behavior according to the Dharma and live that way ourselves. We are not inventing ethical conduct and imposing it on others: the Buddha himself described this and established the various sets of vows. As sincere followers of the Buddha, we are simply reminding ourselves and others of what the Buddha said. If someone does not want to follow this, that is their right. But if someone considers the Buddha their teacher, it is important to respect the ethical principals set out by the Buddha.

Update

Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche – Levallois (Rigpa Paris Center) – October 18th 2017

244Comments

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1

polarsangye on July 22, 2017 at 11:22 pm
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I feel that the way these kind of teachings by Lama’s such as Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche along with public reply statements are made by Rigpa make no attempt to speak to the actual content of the letter to be most disturbing. They actively refuse to communicate on the real topic or even address the quotes by His Holiness the Dalai Lama used to give the concerns valid and appropriate context to the open letter we 8 cosigners address to Sogyal Lakar. Changing the subject and distracting from it’s seriousness implies that they don’t take the letter to be truthful. This demonstrates that there is no appropriate context to ever address these problems and that shows how disingenuous it is of Rigpa to act as they “abuse has no place” in their organisation. They don’t explain how there is any commitment or person to talk to about such problems or how anyone might go about taking appropriate action. I know that if you live there it all comes down to writing a “private letter” to Sogyal Lakar, but there have been so many attempts at this which had no impact that it was time to open a wider dialogue to draw attention to victim blaming, group thinking, magical thinking and other organised efforts to make problems just go away.

So I wrote a facebook response to a teaching by Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche and broke down what I thought were fallacious statements or mixed constructs using Buddha’s name without supplying the quote such that different vehicles with different vows were all brought together in a confusing way. Teachers who have such a weight to their words need to be shown that we are not going to cower in the distance while they lend aid to a system of ignorance and victim blaming. I find these public relations style activities to be dishonest in an subtle yet extreme way because they are chronic patterns that have apparently worked to keep people from fairly considering the abuses that Rigpa itself keeps stating have no place in their organisation.
Indeed such callousness towards people pointing out that there are victims who need to be helped and acknowledged is far from compassionate or loving. The whole organisation advertises itself as focused on “wisdom and compassion”. I actually found that the third pass of this online exchange where I was replied to name by Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche to be a relatively credible and fair letter because he appeared to make concessions.
http://all-otr.org/public-talks/44-letter-to-sangye-ngawang
1. “Sogyal Rinpoche is not my root teacher. I have never received an empowerment from him, or a reading transmission, or Dzogchen instruction. Therefore, I don’t check his qualities and faults. ” Which points out that we as his students should have and must check his qualities and faults. I believe that our effort to check the qualities of Sogyal Lakar show that he does not meet the standards presented in Patrul Rinpoche’s “Words of my perfect teacher” required for a qualified spiritual friend or indeed vajra master.
2. “I am not saying that posting this letter was a mistake. I don’t think that either.” – which may refer to our efforts to confront Sogyal Lakar about his breakages of vows in our letter to him. He seems to be speaking to our actions with this sentence rather than his own. Maybe he refers to my reply to him on Facebook.

By Sogyal Lakar’s logic if he teaches you then he becomes your teacher and you his student and checking is irrelevant. He gives refuge vows instructing students that they must obey him which I just don’t accept to be right for me – its not even optional if you want to participate because it is always just a deeper renewal of faith that he requires of his students. By Sogyal Lakars logic he may believe that if he presides over a practice he is your Vajra Master. We who wrote that letter are not outsiders – i would walk past his compound and hear shrill screams and sounds of violence from time to time along with what i saw directly. It chilled me to the bone and I would ask who it was and find out later and try to talk to see what it was about, especially when it happened to people who were close friends. What goes on that creates such fear and screams?

What I find is that Rigpa is stating that the letter itself is a cause of suffering and not the actions that accumulated over decades until we students felt it irresponsible not to bring this to a level where it could be heard once and for all. Sogyal Lakar has remained undetered from his “lifestyle” which he feels is nobodies business but his own for a long time even though it has brought on many public efforts to expose the clear imbalance of power and sexual demands of students which are by their nature a system of abuse. The stories that come do not sound like experienced students engaged in some kind of pure ritual of tantric nature. They are stories of someone who has such high views that he feels he can do anything and just assume it benefits anyone he does it to harmful or not because he professes to only do it with the intention to help. The more excuses and distractions come the worse this looks and I hope it is all resolve by confronting the bad actor and not by using his resources as a kind of public legal defense fund because he fears prosecution.

Sogyal Lakar has said he will turn to other lamas for advice, but what kind of advice is not explained. If instead those lamas are merely asked to talk to his students to tell them they have samaya and any word of confrontation is samaya breakage and turning against their teacher then this is disheartening.
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  tenpel on July 23, 2017 at 4:03 am
  Reply
  
  Thank you Sangye.
  I remember the story of a women who was at Lerab Ling and had been manipulated to have sex with Sogyal. She was quite confused and when she asked a visiting Lama for help he replied she should be happy for having the good karma to be of Sogyal’s service. How rotten ist this culture and way of thinking? It was so much needed to address these topics. What an amount of pain and confusion these actions and culture has enabled … what a long term task for those effected to find healing….
  Your letter does now also justice to all the victims whose pain and stories were denied, played down or who were even blamed to be the cause of trouble and not the unethical and harmful actions by Sogyal Lakar himself.
  Thank you all for taking responsibility and working so bravely to cease these delusions and abusive patterns / system.
  I think most might not see how much all of you have struggled and what mental pain you have gone through to finally write this letter and to address these things…
  Kudos. Sadhu, Sadhu.
  The Buddha has never ignored or tolerated inappropriate behaviour but directly and openly addressed it and he used always clear words.
3

jigmeyeshe on July 23, 2017 at 12:00 am
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Thank you Joanne, for supporting Sangye Ngawang and for finding such excellent quotes. I only know that Orgyan Topgyal’s comments are very similar to other sangha in groups connected to Sogyal L. I only hope that with time and patience these views that condemn those who have made such clear and kind efforts to speak out will change into an appreciation of their good intentions. And that the Rigpa exposure enables the whole atmosphere within Tibetan Buddhism in the west to become more open, safe and reliable. I look forward to better days ahead.
4

matilda7 on July 23, 2017 at 6:07 am
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He will ask the other lamas to do practice for him – Kurukulla, gonpo practice, drubchens, they’re all protective mechanisms that, it seems, are regularly employed to help maintain Rigpa as a thriving entity and to sure up his own good fortune, going by what i’ve read online
.
5

matilda7 on July 23, 2017 at 7:37 am
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Polarsangye, your first two paras seem to be critical of OTR’s response – or was this personal correspondence? Perhaps you could make that a little clearer. Because then you go on to point out the ways in which his published response concedes certain points and is therefore credible and fair. It’s funny, just as others on the S-dedicated blog were distressed or angry about OTR’s letter, it upset me but on the third reading i came to a somewhat similar conclusion to you. Nevertheless, there’s something about it – the tone or the lack of acknowledgement re the students’ suffering or the blanket decree on the consequences for samaya. So my second question is – why do you think it’s upset people so much?
6

JM Lee on July 23, 2017 at 7:42 am
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Could someone clarify a certain point here please? It seems that the “Letter to Sangye Ngawang” is not directly responding to or commenting on the July 14 letter sent by the eight students (and implies he may not even have seen it firsthand). It’s a bit difficult to know what OTR is talking about without knowing what he is responding to.
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  tenpel on July 23, 2017 at 8:13 am
  Reply
  
  He replied to sth Sangye wrote on Facebook. Sangye can tell better.
  
  However, as he writes he is aware of the letter, he issues the Samaya breaker (hell) claim, he doesn’t express compassion for the victims, he refuses to judge SL‘s actions and claims at the same time rather lengthy they must be good…, his humbleness can be understood as a means to implicitly claim the signatories are arrogant…
  
  Some information I find useful – e.g. Sogyal tulku when still a child. And this sentence is at least something of a type of acknowledgment “I am not saying that posting this letter was a mistake. I don’t think that either.”
8

Joanne on July 23, 2017 at 8:40 am
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However JM Lee and Matilda7 both make a good point– and I think probably this should be clarified. In fact, OTR’s letter was in response to something Sangye wrote on Facebook. However, in the process he also responds to what he has heard about people “turning against” Sogyal Lakar. I think I should revise?
9

Annie on July 23, 2017 at 9:01 am
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Joanna – I am responding to your disappointment at the response of OTR re samaya – is it not obvious to everyone [and OTR] that the samaya between teacher and student had already been broken by the teacher? It bothers me that that has not been noticed – or did I miss it?
10

Adamo on July 23, 2017 at 9:04 am
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We do not know, how detailed that letter was interpreted to OTR. OTR speaks hardly any english, his interpretor seems to be Gyurme.

http://all-otr.org/abou

“This website has been created by a small team of students who share a deep appreciation for Orgyen Tobgyal’s unique way of presenting the Buddha’s wisdom, and have resolved to make his teachings available in English to enthusiastic Dharma students.

Editor-in-Chief: Gyurme Avertin, Rinpoche’s translator
Editorial Consultant: Philip Philippou
English Editors: Janine Schulz and Ane Tsondru
Website Implementation: Eszter Hoffmann
Website Design: Sam Horwood”

So is mainly Rigpa people that manage the communication of OTR. I doubt that they would explain to OTR in way he could see what the 8 “Riot People” really mean.

Eventually OTR is just used a mean for Rigpa officials to manipulate how Sogyals behaviour is interpreted in social media.

I dont know OTR well enough to assess how much he got of Sogyals actions in detail, but I cannot imagine that he would care for some westerner that feel somehow hurt.
Its just complaining for him, useless doing…
Westerner are not so much respected and taken serious within some tibetan hardliner Lamas.
11

polarsangye on July 23, 2017 at 9:41 am
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I confronted Orgyen Tobgyal for a teaching where he started speaking to defend Sogyal Lakar and warn that the Letter was because of practitioners that lacked realization. I deconstructed some of his points and that was quite rude by some peoples standards. He didn’t concede any points but he did seem to back off the issue mostly. I don’t want to keep wasting my time trying to change the views of old school Tibetan practitioners. Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche has a very encyclopedic knowledge of Vajrayana – often that shows up Sogyal Lakars lack of such knowledge. So i’ll just be ok with what he said, heal my Samaya. Samaya is breached almost continually by almost all Vajrayana practitioners so you heal it with various practices. Even serious breakages can be healed within time. So its not worth fight over if I did or didn’t – I think the main points I made was that I didn’t “turn against” Sogyal Lakar. He needs to be exposed and helped by stopping him from causing further harm. So if this publicity does somehow help bring that to come about I don’t really care if there are Lama’s and Students that disagree. Once people can’t make a good logical argument and I expose that they usually go away to think about it more rather than coming back at me and this is what I would like to see. People considering where they made mistakes in judgement or assertion.
12

Odzer Chenma on July 23, 2017 at 3:12 pm
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Is there a reason why Buddhists are trashing Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche for responding to a rather dramatic, accusatory letter? Rinpoche is an extraordinary teacher and one should take his words to heart.
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  tenpel on July 23, 2017 at 3:57 pm
  Reply
  
  Is there a reason why Buddhists are trashing the signatories for responding to violent, abusive behaviour? The signatories show an extraordinary responsibility and care. One should take what they have to say to heart.
14

jigje on July 23, 2017 at 6:52 pm
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Frankly, I don’t really care how extraordinary a teacher Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche is. I find his response to this letter absolutely outrageous and worse.

But then again, OTR was interviewed back in 2016 on Trungpa’s legacy and was similarly disappointed. Seems he only sees what he wants to see. Anything that might besmirch their reputations as great teachers, etc. is simply ignored and swept under a rug.

https://www.chronicleproject.com/orgyen-tobgyal-rinpoche-otr-on-chogyam-trungpa-rinpoche-and-his-lineage-and-legacy/
15

Joanne on July 23, 2017 at 7:14 pm
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Thank you Sangye, for the clarity in your last comment! And Annie, HH Dalai Lama speaks directly to the question of a lama breaking his samaya in the passage I quoted from. Also, I think this post is really important, not for my point of view, but simply because many Rigpa students will be asking themselves about samaya right now and I wanted to make sure that His Holiness’s position on that was spread widely.
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  jigje on July 23, 2017 at 7:34 pm
  Reply
  
  Joanne, it goes without saying that I am deeply appreciative of this very important post by you! I think adding HHDL’s comments on this topic only lends your own comments more weight. It would be hard to take issue with either.
17

jigje on July 23, 2017 at 7:17 pm
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To clarify my previous comment: “….and I was similarly disappointed.”
18

Joanne on July 23, 2017 at 7:54 pm
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I also think maybe, in the context of Tibetan cultural norms, we are not likely to hear from those lamas who would be critical of Sogyal. I think silence might be their common response if they are feeling critical. Is that true? In that regard, I think this situation is going to challenge the establishment as never before.
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  tenpel on July 23, 2017 at 10:27 pm
  Reply
  
  There seem to different approaches. The hierarchical higher theocrats might be silent which might express their disapproval. The common people might mock about the lama up to creating mocking folk songs or rhymes / poetry.
  A family member from the royal family of Bhutan has scolded a while ago a relative when she heard he had met with Sogyal: “What? You met with this pervert!?”. However, I guess she wouldn’t say this in public 😉
20

John Watts on July 24, 2017 at 7:27 am
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I strongly agree with the Dalai Lama’s view! It is the Dharma view we seek, not necessarily the Teacher’s interpretation that is important. The Teacher role is very important, but valuing the Samaya to the Teacher is only apart of what’s important. The Dharma teachings are sacred and everlasting; the Teacher is human and sometimes flawed. The behavior of a wayward Lama does not lessen the value of Dharma Teachings!
21

RH on July 24, 2017 at 3:06 pm
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It has been a dramatic week for many I am sure.
I have been thinking about this particular letter, and there’s a couple of points I want to write down somewhere, so here seems as good a spot.

* As others mentioned, we’re not completely sure what letter he is responding to, or what information he has. However,

* OTR describes his connection to Sogyal, and where his faith in him comes from. Namely, Sogyal’s proximity to other masters, and presence at empowerments.

“Apart from that, I don’t know Sogyal Rinpoche’s outer, inner, secret qualities.”

Along with the next line:

* “Sogyal Rinpoche is not my root teacher. I have never received an empowerment from him, or a reading transmission, or Dzogchen instruction. Therefore, I don’t check his qualities and faults.”

These are pretty important disclaimers. What OTR does not describe, is SL’s formal training, or lack thereof. Or, of SL’s time spent in retreat.

There is a further point that Mary Finnigan fleshes out a bit in behindthethangkas – it seems very likely to me, and others, that SL may have misled his students about his qualifications. Of time spent studying, of academic ability, of sole authorship of even TBOL, and of actually being a Dzogchen master.

A reflection on Mary – she used to look, to me, like a “disgruntled” ex-student with a chip on her shoulder. Now she looks to have been almost completely accurate, and acting out of genuine compassion. She is Rigpa’s Cassandra.

So what OTR is saying, in my view, is that SL is what SL is, and if Westerners want to call him their teacher, that’s their business, and their responsibility. Not his problem.

It is a view that is, from our perspective, lacking in empathy or understanding, but it’s not necessarily dishonest. Others have pointed to warnings about SL, so it was always there.

Due purely to SL’s connection with his masters, he does have good qualities, which have been transmitted, and which many have experienced and are grateful for.

But, if upon examining his true motivation, we conclude that his secret goal was to train followers to see his every action as pure, so that he could exploit them for money and sex, then how awful is that really?
As a side effect, awareness of Buddhism, and of basic practices, have spread, so there is some good. That’s hard to deny. But the tainting is real and very damaging.

For those students who were more ‘casual’, less involved with the inner workings, they arguably got the most benefit.

For those students who went all-in, some dedicating their life (and reputation, and life’s savings), well, I personally know and love some of them, so I can’t bear to think about it. I hope there’s no suicides out of all this.

Finally point I want to touch on – OTR highlights that it is not his responsibility to check SL’s qualities. It is the responsibility of his students.

How many have actually done that diligently?

How can they do that diligently?

I guess some of us thought OTR would, and that was a laziness on our part.

There is a gap here, between what can be claimed, and what can be accurately checked. Others have posted the Dalai Lama’s advice on this, and other detailed advice, so I won’t repeat it.

For those who are still devoted to Buddhism, and its important to the West, that’s something that I think can be improved. At a very minimal, agreeing upon ethical standards is essential.

Your blog certainly contributes positively in this direction – thank you tenpel.
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  tenpel on July 24, 2017 at 4:43 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you for your comment. Especially important to consider – among others – the point that casual attendees might have received more benefit than harm and that the hardest situation is for those who were totally committed…
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  Matthias Steingass on July 27, 2017 at 11:39 am
  Reply
  
  “There is a further point that Mary Finnigan fleshes out a bit in behindthethangkas – it seems very likely to me, and others, that SL may have misled his students about his qualifications. Of time spent studying, of academic ability, of sole authorship of even TBOL, and of actually being a Dzogchen master.”
  
  I looked closely into SL’s book and other available information nearly 10 years ago. I came to the same conclusion: That one should be very suspicious about SL’s qualifications. Just one example: I think when his uncle Jamyang Khyentse died (who gave SL, in SL’s account, his first pointing out instructions) he was about 11 years old. SL suggests that he, after the death of his uncle, at once went on with his “education” with Dudjom Rinpoche, whereby in fact there is a nine-year-gap before he met Dudjom. There was then no account what he did in these nine years (except a note by Stephen Batchelor somewhere, that little Sogyal went to a catholic boarding school in Sikhim). About his relation with Dudjom SL says that he got “many years of daily pointing out instructions” by Dudjom. I don’t think that this fits into his biografie very well.
  
  This is just an exmaple. I would have to get out all the material again and perhaps in the mean time there is more information available. The point 10 years ago was also that it was very difficult to get independent informtion about SL’s bio. Everything on the net seemed to stemm from his rigpa.wiki
24

tenpel on July 25, 2017 at 11:05 am
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Recently there was a retreat in Winterberg, Germany, with Mingyur Rinpoche and Khenpo Kunga. A participant of a group interview with Khenpo Kunga just reported via email:*

During a group interview in Winterberg, someone asked Khenpo Kunga about breaking away from a teacher under whom one has been studying and from whom one has received initiations, etc. if one later loses one’s confidence in that teacher because of misbehavior, her question was if the student would then be breaking samaya, and Khenpo Kunga became a little serious and stated clearly that in this case it is the teacher who had broken samaya. He also said that you can’t force yourself or talk yourself into feeling devotion for someone, and that it is better to find someone with whom you naturally feel devotion.

* The person kindly agreed to share this account with the public.
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  Hans Parcival on July 25, 2017 at 5:46 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you Tenpel for your comment and the statement of Khenpo Kunga as quoted by a student. This is really helpful. Orgyen Topgyal Rinpoche (OTR) is a very close friend of lama Sogyal. So he can’t hardly be critical towards lama Sogyal. OTR is also very traditional, for the good and for the bad. His presentation of samaya looks quite formal and traditional to me. As far as I understand, we do also have a samaya towards our own Buddha-nature. Isn’t that the most important samaya? A teacher of dharma also has a samaya towards his students. Called the samaya of a vidyadhara or enlightened master? This implies also not harming but helping others, like one’s students, as good as one can. So Sangye should not worry too much about a breakage of his samaya. He is very right in criticising lama Sogyal, when the lama is harming students of him.
  A Rigpa dharma student for long time.
26

Karma Pemo on July 26, 2017 at 1:17 am
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
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  Matthias Steingass on July 27, 2017 at 12:01 pm
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  “Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche, Neten Chokling Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Sogyal Rinpoche…”
  
  Does anybody know the bool “A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951
  The Demise of the Lamaist State” by Melvyn C. Goldstein. If not look it up and read about the 5th Reting who held the interregnum between DL 13 und 14 and who was the head of education of the young DL 14. It is a story of such massive forms of malice, lying, killing, instigating a civil war around Lhasa, even sending a bomb by mail that you rub your eyes if you come from the lofty highs of a view on Tibet as the crown of Buddhist enlightenment.
  
  The point is: The history of Tibet is in no small part one of a culture in which in politics – which often involved high ranking religious scholars – were about living or dying (or so, in the words of Matthew Kapstein) and the means therefore were lying, cheating, fraud, brutality, murder etc. Probably one should try to see the above named a bit within that ‘tradition’. At least one finally should discard the fantasy that every other guy who by chance got to be named Rinpoche is a spiritual advanced being.
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  KP on July 27, 2017 at 10:52 pm
  Reply
  
  I agree with everything that’s been said on this forum but I have a serious issue with Karma Pemo’s allegations. He really needs to check his facts before besmirching some of the best buddhist teachers around today. OT, NC and DJK Rinpoche are close friends, yes, I have seen them together, and witnessed their relaxed camaraderie with each other. DJK Rinpoche is the main reincarnation of the great Chokyi Lodro, who was a close friend of the previous Neten Chokling Rinpoche, the father of OT Rinpoche. In their present reincarnations, the three were close disciples of HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. By contrast, in their company, Sogyal puts on his smarmy self and maintain a formal distance, so to claim he is one of the gang is a big stretch.
  
  DJK Rinpoche’s films were all made with shoe string budgets which was why he relied on friends and volunteers to play the characters, only in Vara did he use a professional actress because the female lead is a dancer, so I don’t know where Karma got the information that OT Rinpoche received a chunk of the takings which in fact was all donated.
  
  If there is a Rinpoche today who walks the walk and not just talk the talk tirelessly, it is DJK Rinpoche. Rigpa students said he is the only teacher to have asked about their Ngondro progress, something their own teacher, Sogyal never bothers himself with.
  
  Has it occurred to Karma that great compassion is not to condemn one who is wrong but to find a way to help and allow them to redeem themselves? And great wisdom is to protect all those Sogyal students whose faith might be irreparably damaged when guru devotion is the path? So to insinuate that there is some kind of conspiracy is really the projection of one’s impure mind.
  
  If Karma had bothered to read some of DJK’s posts, reprinted in http://britishbuddhism.blogspot.co.uk/, he will find DJK’s criticisms of the commercialisation and the quality of the teachings at Buddhist centres like Rigpa, and in his latest book ‘ Guru Drinks Bourbon’, DJK was unequivocal in stating what he thinks of sexual relationship between teacher and student. And if Karma were to dig a bit deeper, he may find the reason why some teachers stopped teaching at Rigpa.
  
  As a spiritual friend, teachers can only advice and suggest. But when it suits us, we want them to take responsibility for everything, and when it doesn’t, we condemn them for being dictatorial. Hello!
  
  I am on nobody’s side, and I also don’t know the truth about many things that have been discussed, other than the fact that Sogyal isn’t quite what he purports to be, and that he is seen to be exploitative. ( knowingly or unknowingly, that I cannot say)
  
  From my own experience, my kind gentle guru is also relentless, in giving me and his serious students a hard time, unless we indicate we need a little time off. How else can the ego be annihilated? We aren’t physically abused or sexually assaulted, but the skilful means is at times no less uncomfortable. One NEVER knows why or how until after the experience, otherwise it doesn’t work, my teacher said. Confessions in front of others are encouraged, which in all spiritual traditions, is a powerful cleansing practice. Oh, and being ridiculed too. These work if one watches one’s mind instead of judging and reacting. Sogyal seem to have tried similar strategies, from reading the complaints, but did his methods back fire because he himself isn’t disciplined, or sufficiently informed, and failed to take account of what is appropriate for the person?
  
  Many people have quoted HH the Dalai Lama about ‘ criticising the action’ not the ‘ person’ but few have looked at the motivations behind Sogyal’s actions. Perhaps we should try to find the good intentions in the things he’s done, and forgive the disasters. If he himself, his organization and all those who choose to sidestep the questions were to be more open and own up to the things that has gone wrong, and why, understanding can be achieved which can only be a positive step forward.
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    tenpel on July 27, 2017 at 11:41 pm
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    What is the »good intention« in hitting a nun violently in the stomach or a monk in the face etc.; or to exploit the need for attention or love, low self-esteem, insecurities (combined with a culture of indoctrination and manipulation) to have sex with young pretty women? – Not to speak about ordering to take images of the genitals of attendants or students, ordering to make collages of their genitals and to show them to others? (Its amazing to see how people are able to ignore the content of such a clear letter and then to ask to consider good motivations for the harm been created, and for such perverse and extremely coarse and rude actions – criminal actions as the signatories make clear.)
    
    How else can the ego be annihilated?
    
    By cultivating insight, isn’t it?
    
    However, as long as there is no damage, also alternative means might be ok. If this – not to cause harm (especially not long term harm) – is been taken care of, I can agree with sth like »We aren’t physically abused or sexually assaulted, but the skilful means is at times no less uncomfortable.«
    
    I think why it backfired is because he didn’t have a good motivation nor the wisdom to act skilfully. Let’s face reality. Crazy Wisdom creating long term harm is not wisdom but ignorance. It all looks like that he is full of mind poisons and then compassion or wisdom are absent.
    
    forgive the disasters
    
    Before you can forgive, I think, it would be good to see and to accept the facts. I think most are just on the way to see and accept the facts… So, at the moment its not about forgiveness I think.
    
    I agree, however, with
    
    If he himself, his organization and all those who choose to sidestep the questions were to be more open and own up to the things that has gone wrong, and why, understanding can be achieved which can only be a positive step forward.
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    matilda7 on July 28, 2017 at 1:00 am
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    I agree with the poster who’s taken exception to Karma Pemo’s characterisation of Orgyen Tobgyal. Tenpel,on another thread (around 18 months ago) i already provided a more accurate representation of the hard work Orgyen Tobgyal put in to build up his father’s monastery after his death. The above very unpleasant claims just reflect the gossip of jealous Tibetans. They wouldn’t know that independent films like The Cup never make a profit and are likely to produce a loss!
    
    As for Dzongsar Khyentse, while KP (NOT Karma Pemo, this is CONFUSING!) is right to point out how DKR generally reflects an authentic approach in his writings and behaviour and strives to instil that in his students, he has still not disapproved of Sogyal. Indeed, on the ‘letter’ blog, it is claimed that he asked for it not to be discussed. I know Lamas disapprove of any breaking of bonds, whether it’s between friends, couples, or Lamas & students, but vulnerable students are confused and i’m sure they would benefit from some words of guidance from DKR.
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      tenpel on July 28, 2017 at 1:19 am
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      Thank you. Personally, I don’t have an opinion on this because a) I don’t know OTR, b) I don’t know the details discussed.
      Therefore, I cannot really moderate this. So any help with facts, accurate knowledge or sober background input that helps to clarify things been claimed is highly welcomed. I don’t want that this blog is (ab)used for manipulations or propaganda and I don’t want that this blog is (ab)used for attacks, slander, the spread of wrong or inaccurate information about others.
      
      BTW, what does DJK state in his latest book The Guru Drinks Bourbon about teachers having sex with students? »DJK was unequivocal in stating what he thinks of sexual relationship between teacher and student.« What does he say? I remember from previous discussions that people said they were disappointed by what he states, basically students are not able to judge it or so. Is that true? (If true, 1) I disagree, 2) I think this is a dangerous statement, 3) it contradicts the Buddha who says that if we don’t have the capacity to see the mind of the teacher (Buddha), we should carefully check if his bodily or physical behaviour is associated with the mind poisons ore not associated with the mind poisons. It would also contradict the Tantric or Mahayana teachings because all of them say you must check the teacher and they give lists. If you cannot check the teacher, what’s the point to stress to check the teachers and to give lists of qualities a teacher should have?)
      
      Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another’s mind, should investigate the Tathāgata with respect to two kinds of states, states cognizable through the eye and through the ear thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not any defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘No defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
      
      https://suttacentral.net/en/mn47
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        Dkblue on July 28, 2017 at 2:22 am
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        Unfortunately, in my experience, it appears that none of the Lamas discussed in this thread are entirely beyond question or reproach….
        Nor should they be. After all we seek them out for their wisdom and as an example of the highest most refined qualities possible. Perhaps this is too idealistic but when they are playing the role of Guru so should we expect anything less?
        In any case, without being more specific, I would advise caution and a lack of rose tinted glasses where taking these Lamas on as ‘Gurus’ is concerned…
        
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        tenpel on July 28, 2017 at 11:49 am
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        Maybe I misunderstand your comment or don’t get what you want to say. But, let’s all remind, basically we discuss here about Sogyal from the Lakar family, Samaya breaking and the fiddling around the topic tactics and the poor “logic” of OTR – e.g. if a lama or guru has many students he must be somewhat good. Well, many cult leaders have a lot of students but this doesn’t make the cult leaders genuine gurus…
        
        If you are claiming Sogyal acted like a guru or spiritual friend and we didn’t get that and we are at fault you twist reality. The real spiritual friend or guru helps you to get rid of suffering and it’s causes and does not inflict suffering and it’s causes – like involving you in misdeeds like lying, sexual misconduct, causing you to loose faith in the Dharma and even genuine Buddhist teachers etc.
        
        The spiritual friend (Kalyanamitra) has been described by the Buddha of having the function to release the disciple “from being subject to aging, sickness, death, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and agitation” and not to burden the disciple with “aging, sickness, death*, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and agitation”.
        
        * Harsh speech and bullying as Sogyal Lakar throws on his faithful students (being open due to faith, the pain goes even deeper!) can reduce your life force and can contribute to an earlier death because of the energy sucking emotional wounds. These actions can also lead to depression, self-hate etc and suicide – not to speak about a spiritual death when you give up spirituality or the dharma completely.
        
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        Dkblue on July 28, 2017 at 12:39 pm
        
        I’m not sure if you are replying to me here Tenpel? If so, you have misunderstood me as I agree with all you wrote in the response here.
        I am saying the same thing basically; take care when becoming involved with these Lamas inc Sogyal Lakar….do thorough ‘background check’ and be careful of exaggerating good qualities, or downplaying questionable behaviour (wearing rose-tinted glasses)
        
        35
        
        tenpel on July 28, 2017 at 12:59 pm
        
        Oh, then I beg your apology! I am sorry that I misunderstood you.
        Thank you for the clarification / correction.
        
        After I read some of your comments more closely, I had a doubt if you mean it as I perceived it because it didn’t really match the content of other comments. So, I revised the comment but still thinking I got what you wanted to say – interpreting the contradictions as ‘Maybe s/he is still struggling between cultish influence and sane thinking…’
        
        I am saying the same thing basically; take care when becoming involved with these Lamas inc Sogyal Lakar….do thorough ‘background check’ and be careful of exaggerating good qualities, or downplaying questionable behaviour (wearing rose-tinted glasses)
        
        Thank you.
        
        I (mis)understood you wanted to say though none of the lamas is beyond question/reproach but have to play the role of guru for our sake, and we “seek them out for their wisdom and as an example of the highest most refined qualities” we have to accept that they treat us in questionable ways and can’t expect anything else when they play their role – even if not as we expected. The last sentence with the “lack of rose tinted glasses where taking these Lamas on as ‘Gurus’ is concerned” I (mis)understood as you are suggesting, we should not complain if they then act as (crazy wisdom) gurus (even in harmful manners), playing their role, for our sake being fooled by rose tinted glasses to misunderstand that this is not what they should do.
        
        Maybe because I am not a native English speaker I didn’t get your point. (I read it twice or thrice before answering.)
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    Karma Pemo on July 29, 2017 at 9:40 pm
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    Karma Pemo on August 8, 2017 at 10:54 pm
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Karma Pemo on July 26, 2017 at 1:25 am
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Ulrike Da Ju on July 26, 2017 at 11:04 am
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Dear all,

thank You very much for this information.
To make it very short, wholesome actions create good circumstances and
unwholesome have the opposite consequences. This should a teacher now and
live up to it. Lets go back to the Buddhas Teaching, which makes everything just clear.
May everyone be happy

Ulrike
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  Brian on July 26, 2017 at 8:56 pm
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  Karma Pemo: I’m not sure about a book called “the Party” but there is a 1980 book still in print entitled ‘The Great Naropa Poetry Wars’ by Tom Clark (ISBN-10: 0932274064, ISBN-13: 978-0932274069) which recounts the Merwin incident.
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Karma Pemo on July 27, 2017 at 6:54 pm
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Karma Pemo on July 27, 2017 at 7:01 pm
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Karma Pemo on July 27, 2017 at 7:28 pm
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KP on July 28, 2017 at 2:08 am
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Tenpel,

I am as repulsed as you are by all those actions you mentioned, in particular the exploitation of the young girls. I too was once unwittingly delivered to Sogyal’s chambers by one of his senior students. What saved me was the fact that I wasn’t with Rigpa, and having had to console one of his students who had been coerced by this teacher into a sexual relationship meant I already abhorred his conduct. Still, the discovery that such things can occur caused me years of confusion and anguish. But one uses whatever is thrown at one on the path as practice, in the cultivation of compassion and insights. On the Vajrayana path, the insight one looks towards is the nature of mind, which has to be separated from the relative morality of deeds. In tantra, there are both right hand and left hand paths, and like the two banks of the river, they work together to channel the river in a certain direction. It goes without saying this ‘ so called’ teacher lacks the training, restraint, wisdom and the skilful means, because those abhorrent antinomian methods which Sogyal indiscriminately employs,in the wrong dose, are considered inappropriate and can be destabilizing and corrupting on an unsuitable candidate at the wrong time. But in themselves those methods can also help one to move through fear and aversion, to free up shakti. For that reason I want to believe there is a tiny bit of good intention, if perhaps misguided in some of the things he does.

It just occurred to me, can Sogyal realistically admit to all his wrong doings publicly? Or can another lama condemn his misdeeds in a public manner?if they did, Rigpa will most likely be faced with a class action, or enough litigations to bankrupt them and then some. From what I heard, the settlement for the first court case came from the book earnings, but where will the funds for future settlements come from?
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  tenpel on July 28, 2017 at 5:33 pm
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  Sorry, I didn’t read this.
  
  The point is that either you have wisdom or not. Wisdom includes to see the longterm and short term benefit and the longterm and short term harm of actions. It should be obvious that this was not the case, therefore it was not wisdom. To call the lack of wisdom “crazy wisdom” is crazy in and by itself. The lack of wisdom is called ignorance or confusion in the teachings of the Buddha (and even in the world.)
  
  What ever your understanding of crazy wisdom is, it is clear that “those methods” applied by Sogyal Lakar didn’t help those been harmed “to move through fear and aversion, to free up shakti”!
  
  It just occurred to me, can Sogyal realistically admit to all his wrong doings publicly?
  
  If he is a true Bodhisattva and a master why should he cling to money, organisations or his position and why should he aim in anyway to perpetuate a circle of heaviest deceptions and lies at the cost of those whom he harmed and at the cost of the Buddhadharma and peoples’ faith?
  
  The point is, that spirituality means radical honesty and also confession, also confession in front of others. What you are talking about is political aimed damage control, not spirituality, its not the Dharma, and it has nothing to do with the ethical conduct of a Buddhist or a Bodhisattva. Actual, what we see here is what Bhikku Bodhi described so well:
  
  The Buddha’s stricture against lying [which includes not to tell the truth when been asked] rests upon several reasons. For one thing, lying is disruptive to social cohesion. People can live together in society only in an atmosphere of mutual trust, where they have reason to believe that others will speak the truth; by destroying the grounds for trust and inducing mass suspicion, widespread lying becomes the harbinger signalling the fall from social solidarity to chaos. But lying has other consequences of a deeply personal nature at least equally disastrous. By their very nature lies tend to proliferate. Lying once and finding our word suspect, we feel compelled to lie again to defend our credibility, to paint a consistent picture of events. So the process repeats itself: the lies stretch, multiply, and connect until they lock us into a cage of falsehoods from which it is difficult to escape. The lie is thus a miniature paradigm for the whole process of subjective illusion. In each case the self-assured creator, sucked in by his own deceptions, eventually winds up their victim.
  
  Such considerations probably lie behind the words of counsel the Buddha spoke to his son, the young novice Rahula, soon after the boy was ordained. One day the Buddha came to Rahula, pointed to a bowl with a little bit of water in it, and asked: “Rahula, do you see this bit of water left in the bowl?” Rahula answered: “Yes, sir.” “So little, Rahula, is the spiritual achievement (samañña, lit. ‘recluseship’) of one who is not afraid to speak a deliberate lie.” Then the Buddha threw the water away, put the bowl down, and said: “Do you see, Rahula, how that water has been discarded? In the same way one who tells a deliberate lie discards whatever spiritual achievement he has made.” Again he asked: “Do you see how this bowl is now empty? In the same way one who has no shame in speaking lies is empty of spiritual achievement.” Then the Buddha turned the bowl upside down and said: “Do you see, Rahula, how this bowl has been turned upside down? In the same way one who tells a deliberate lie turns his spiritual achievements upside down and becomes incapable of progress.” Therefore, the Buddha concluded, one should not speak a deliberate lie even in jest.[22]
  
  It is said that in the course of his long training for enlightenment over many lives, a bodhisatta can break all the moral precepts except the pledge to speak the truth. The reason for this is very profound, and reveals that the commitment to truth has a significance transcending the domain of ethics and even mental purification, taking us to the domains of knowledge and being. Truthful speech provides, in the sphere of interpersonal communication, a parallel to wisdom in the sphere of private understanding. The two are respectively the outward and inward modalities of the same commitment to what is real. Wisdom consists in the realization of truth, and truth (sacca) is not just a verbal proposition but the nature of things as they are. To realize truth our whole being has to be brought into accord with actuality, with things as they are, which requires that in communications with others we respect things as they are by speaking the truth. Truthful speech establishes a correspondence between our own inner being and the real nature of phenomena, allowing wisdom to rise up and fathom their real nature. Thus, much more than an ethical principle, devotion to truthful speech is a matter of taking our stand on reality rather than illusion, on the truth grasped by wisdom rather than the fantasies woven by desire.
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  Karma Pemo on July 31, 2017 at 4:18 am
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    tenpel on July 31, 2017 at 7:56 am
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    The behaviour and effects of the actions were what evaluated the merit of an teacher. I spoke with a person who is part of the higher hierarchy of this culture. He said he and others are utterly embarrassed for what Sogyal Lakar has done. His aunt called Sogyal an perverse already long ago and they look down on him for a long time. He also told that Chatral Rinpoche and Tsering Khandro Rinpoche as well as Dudjom Rinpoche and others were very concerned about him and found it wrong that he went to the West. He said in their societies (Tibet, Bhutan, Sikkim) they had just went to his house, had pulled him out, stripped him naked and beaten him badly, publicly shaming and humiliating him. According to him, this is the way how their societies deal with such people and such shameful and harmful behaviour. But like a very good con artist Sogyal Lakar fled from his native environment and fooled people with no clue about how unacceptable such behaviour is. I think we don’t need more brainwashing about his claimed high background we just open our eyes and ears to his actions and the outcome of his actions and we’ll see and can judge for ourselves. Tibetans always did it likewise. They are far more earthed and sane than stupid, naive Westerners and know that an incarnation or emanation or tulku can horrendously fail.
    
    This forum is what people make out of it and about that for which there is a need for people to speak about. It doesn’t make sense to tell how to proceed to survivors if no survivor pops up and asks for it. This blog like anything else is a dependent arising. However, nothing discussed in public here on how to proceed for survivors doesn’t mean people don’t engage in a non public way or at other platforms for survivors. Moreover, also unmasking an narcissistic person or discussions on distortions of the dharma that indoctrinated people or applied manipulative means like gaslighting etc or quotes that give you back freedom to judge and to leave such gurus can be of help for them. Also different opinions or arguments…
    In general why this blog was set up and what it aims for, see the About page.
    
    I didn’t read KP‘s comments but will check now. In general personal attacks are not allowed. I am in charge of moderating and I am happy to receive criticism, hints or pointing out unsuitable comments. So, thank you very much for this. Don’t hesitate to point out comments you find inappropriate.
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    tenpel on July 31, 2017 at 8:18 am
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    Äh, I checked. I read some of the comments of KP (also before you complained, as I remembered when just checking two of them) and there was nothing wrong with them. When I get it correctly, KP didn’t attack you personally but disagreed with the content of what you write and has another pov and experiences. Sharing and disagreeing with you is not an attack on your person – maybe on the content you wrote but this is always part of any discussion to disagree with the content of what a person says. I don’t get how this comment could traumatise a survivor?! Please give examples or good reasons to substantiate your claims. Thank you.
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      Karma Pemo on August 2, 2017 at 8:02 pm
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      - 50
        
        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 12:48 am
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        I agree, Karma Pemo, that to much intellectualisation is really not helpfull.
        
        KP’s ”He really needs to check his facts before besmirching some of the best buddhist teachers around today.” seems to me an uncalled for way to reproach your posts content and is not just ‘disagreeing with the content’, as Tenpels says, in my experience.
        
        If claims are unsubstantiated it can be just stated that they are not substantiated enough to be taken as facts perse or supporting reference for claims can be asked for.
        
        In KP’s ”Many people have quoted HH the Dalai Lama about ‘ criticising the action’ not the ‘ person’ but few have looked at the motivations behind Sogyal’s actions. Perhaps we should try to find the good intentions in the things he’s done, and forgive the disasters.” i find it difficult to see this is not undermining SL’s victums.
        
        Also: ”I also don’t know the truth about many things that have been discussed, other than the fact that Sogyal isn’t quite what he purports to be, and that he is seen to be exploitative. ( knowingly or unknowingly, that I cannot say)”
        The focus here on possible unintentionally having been (seen to be) ”exploitative” idem.
        
        Tenpel, could you point out where Karma Pemo uses ”indoctrinations” in your opinion regarding as you say ”not being able to judge the guru and the guru is always right and the high up bla bla”
        
        Í see what she/he says summarized in her/his words ”It is time to start evaluating these masters, their conduct, and stop promoting abuse; physical, financial, sexual and emotional.” ”to identify actual abuse and call it for what it is, must be done if the precious Dharma is to survive in the west.”
        What did i miss..?
        
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        Joanne on August 3, 2017 at 6:31 am
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        Hi Karma Pemo I think these are sensitive issues and I hear what you’re saying. You have a valid point of view, I agree with many of Stardust’s points. However, this forum cannot really be called a protected space for survivors of abuse– so robust disagreement is part of how things are going be discussed. And people aren’t going to be treading softly enough for someone who is feeling vulnerable. So I agree with you there!
        
        Certainly for myself, I struggle when people seem to undermine the seriousness of abusive behaviors– and personally, I’ve heard enough of people trying to justify the actions of Rigpa’s leader– so I also am sensitive to KP’s comment about Sogyal not being “quite what he purports to be and that he is seen to be exploitive…”
        
        However, I have to agree with Tenzin that KP’s arguments are within the bounds of correct speech. He/she has a right to a point of view as long as he/she isn’t engaged in personal attack or other harsh methods.
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        tenpel on August 3, 2017 at 7:50 am
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        Hi Karmo Pemo! I reviewed now your last four comments and two of my replies to it as well. As a result I slightly changed two replies because it looks like I mistook you for a person who commented here starting basically claiming we can’t judge the guru, the guru is always right. This is not at all what you are saying or intending to say in those last comments I just read again when I got it now correctly. I was a bit harsh in my speech to you and I beg your pardon for it! I am really sorry and I apologise. You don’t deny the harm been done, your concern is with the survivors and you want to help to find a suitable master for seeking advice – which is all a great help. So thank you for your contributions.
        What I could do, I could change or amend a comment for you. Deleting them is disrespectful to those who took time to reply to them. You gave also good and valuable input and you are right some of the comments might be shocking to read for survivors but this is not a space only for survivors, they have their own spaces like the closed Facebook group or the What Now blog. I added some comments to the What Now blog – though some of them hard to take by survivors I thought they might be useful in the future, when their process of awakening is a bit more advanced.
        I would appreciate if you can continue to engage. The only thing I didn’t get is how KP‘s comments are attacking you / SL or re-traumatise survivors? Maybe you could explain this more clearly so that I / we can understand it better?
        Again, I apologise for having been partially too harsh to you. I wish you well and thank you for your love and care, your concerns for the survivors and seeing the potential risk to re-traumatise them.
        
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        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 8:06 am
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        Tenzin, it seems you have responded to my post to Karma Pema which inluded the question to you that you refer to in your respond here. I also pointed to three things from KP’s posts that i felt could easily be interpreted as undermining victums. I wonder where it went, it was here before.
        
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        tenpel on August 3, 2017 at 8:25 am
        
        I don’t know what happened to your comment. I checked spam, there is nothing.
        Maybe I was also initially confused about the „KP“ and the „Karma Pemo“ pseudonym being the same person? Anyway, please Stardust, Joanne and anybody else be so kind to help me to have thoughtful and reasonable discussions. I have become far too involved in these topics and it became heavily time consuming. Being overweighted with it and wanting to reduce the time I spend on it I try to cut down my engagement but I risk to get careless, faulty in my perception and judgements and doing injustice to commentators or others. In case you find faults pls directly address them or send me an email. I am in a retreat also until 16. August and I would like only to approve comments.
        We all want the same basically, to stop abuse, to stop re-traumatising survivors and to bridge their situation to a better and saver place. Our views and skills to achieve that will differ of course.
        Thank you all for your contributions and pls accept my apologies where I have misread or misinterpreted or misjudged you. Don’t hesitate to oppose or to correct me or anybody else, thank you.
        
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        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 9:16 am
        
        Wishing you a very good retreat tenpel. You are doing such good work and taking on rather a lot.
        
        The missing post said something to this extend:
        
        I agree, Karma Pemo, that too much intellectualisation is not helpfull.
        
        In regard to KP’s ”He really needs to check his facts before besmirching some of the best buddhist teachers around today.” i feel this is an uncalled for reproach of the contents of your posts.
        When one feels claims are not substantiated enough to be seen as ‘facts’ one can state this is perceived as such or ask for supportive reference.
        
        Regarding KP’s ”I am on nobody’s side, and I also don’t know the truth about many things that have been discussed, other than the fact that Sogyal isn’t quite what he purports to be, and that he is seen to be exploitative. ( knowingly or unknowingly, that I cannot say)” is difficult to see how a focus on possible unintentionality on Sogyals side is not undermining victums.
        
        Regarding his/hers”Many people have quoted HH the Dalai Lama about ‘ criticising the action’ not the ‘ person’ but few have looked at the motivations behind Sogyal’s actions. Perhaps we should try to find the good intentions in the things he’s done, and forgive the disasters.” most definitely idem…
        
        I then quoted tenpel with some to me rather puzzling claims in regard to your post content and quoted you to summarize your by me experienced intentions/views.
        Asking tenzin what i was missing. But that’s al cleared now.
        Karma Pemo good luck on your journey.
        
        xxx
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    Dkblue on August 1, 2017 at 8:35 am
    Reply
    
    Hello, Karma Pemo,
    when you state ‘….DKR is an emanation, not a reincarnation, of Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro. These facts have important implications in evaluating the merits of teachers,’ can you please explain first;
    the difference between an emanation and reincarnation of a Lama and
    secondly, the important implications re the merit depending on whether an emanation or re-incarnation?
    Also, are you/have you been a student of DKR?
    My questions are sincere and are a result of a painful situation for me re this particular Lama and some senior members of his sangha..
    Thanks in advance
    - 57
      
      matilda7 on August 2, 2017 at 9:02 pm
      Reply
      
      I would like to know what Karma Pemo’s source is to claim DKR is merely an emanation, not a reincarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro. I don’t believe that’s correct at all.
    - 58
      
      matilda7 on August 3, 2017 at 3:06 am
      Reply
      
      Ok, it just dawned on me what Karma Pemo is alluding to. Though i believe he’s certainly incorrect to claim DKR is an ’emanation’ rather than an incarnation, the term ’emanation’ is used to delineate the various incarnations of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo as the body, speech, mind, activities and qualities emanations of him. DKR is considered to be an activities emanation ie. he embodies the quality of activity but he is definitely an incarnation of JKW. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Jamyang_Khyentse_Wangpo_Incarnation_Line
      
      Right now i’ve got this from Rigpa Wiki due to time pressures, but there are of course many other online sources where this information can be found. And anyhow, i’ve been aware of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo incarnating as separate tulkus who embodied body, speech, mind etc qualities since the seventies, long before the internet!
      - 59
        
        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 7:43 am
        Reply
        
        ”he is definitely an incarnation of JKW.” I would say is considered to be an incarnation of JKW is more factual.
        Qalities incarnatied as seperate ”tulkus”? Interesting…
        By which institution? By which authorisation?
        And how? Have they seen it in a dream..?
        Thanks.
        
        60
        
        matilda7 on August 3, 2017 at 9:12 am
        Reply
        
        I’ve given one link above but you can read these things in their biographies and so many other places.
        
        61
        
        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 11:08 am
        
        Thanks mathilda7.
        A link with a good summarisation on this authorisation works would be helpfull. To question it seems to me rather essential because the authority of the lamas seems to play such a crucial element in the abuse.
        
        62
        
        tenpel on August 3, 2017 at 2:10 pm
        
        I think the stupidity, nativity, allowing to be indoctrinated, the own narcissism, lack of good education in complex Tibetan Buddhism, blind faith, being carried away by a Lama’s reputation and fame, not critically investigating a Lama’s actions of body and speech, following the crowed etc, of Western students play a similar role. There is no Cleopatra without people who give her that name and it’s associated status.
        Rigpa and similar Cultic zen groups are now a public testimony for anybody to see that very intelligent people can fall prey to cults. Most people think, it are losers, unstable, ill educated people who fall prey to cults, however, this prejudice is not true and scientific research oppose such a prejudice. Most often it are the idealistic people with a good education who want to change the world who might end up in cults.
63

jigje on July 28, 2017 at 2:58 pm
Reply

KP,

“But in themselves those methods can also help one to move through fear and aversion, to free up shakti. For that reason I want to believe there is a tiny bit of good intention, if perhaps misguided in some of the things he does.”

I am at a complete loss as to see how SR’s “methods” (abuse) is capable of helping ANYONE move through fear and aversion? This, IMHO, is a huge stretch (across an impassable abyss) to get to a belief that sees some small good behind his abusive tendencies. Sorry.
64

k on July 30, 2017 at 1:44 pm
Reply

This is typical Tibetan diplomacy, it’s full of cultural concepts that describe a reality that only speaks to Tibetans (DR holding SL hands once, having learned near great masters etc..) this is mitigation, there is no breach of Samaya, unless the breach is on the side of Sogyal Rimpoché, then YES there is a breach of Samaya, in the charge of the master, not the student, and it is even worst in my view. worst for Buddhism. Worst for his karma, that’s for sure.

Students should breath, focus on their intention to clear this mess, always keep in mind that the worst they can do is to alert other students to be cautious and perhaps if lucky maybe force buddhist hierarchies to adopt a clear charter regarding ethics, transparency, governance.
65

ErickTsiknopoulos on July 30, 2017 at 5:54 pm
Reply

Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche: hardcore authoritarian and super-dogmatic aristocrat? Also widely disliked by the Tibetan community in his own hometown of Bir in India, btw.
66

jigje on July 30, 2017 at 6:37 pm
Reply

Erik,
Well, that characterization, if indeed true, explains a lot and adds significantly to his “baggage.”
67

concerned on July 31, 2017 at 10:50 pm
Reply

Well firstly I would like to chime in and say I completely agree with RH and want to add another point in review of OTR’s letter. It should be known I personally have great regard for OTR and have attended his teachings. I have nothing but respect for OTR.

“I witnessed Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö holding Sogyal Rinpoche’s hand as he circumambulated the royal temple in Sikkim in the evenings. In the few empowerments I received from Chökyi Lodrö, Sogyal Rinpoche was there to help in giving the empowerment. That is where my regard for Sogyal Rinpoche comes from, as I have always said – this is what I tell everyone. Apart from that, I don’t know Sogyal Rinpoche’s outer, inner, secret qualities. He is said to be an incarnation of Tertön Sogyal”

OTR expounds on facts and here this history of SL is very very limited. When you ask him to speak on a great being like JKCL or JKW he will go on at great length, with content that could fill several books. Because he didn’t comment on SL’s training does indeed tell us a lot. And because he hasn’t so much as taken a reading transmission from SL also tells us a lot.

OTR did not confirm Sogyal being an incarnation of the Terton; he said ‘he is SAID to be’. I found this important to note.

If the students and Rigpa would have done a thorough background check as they should have (just as any school teacher who works with students will have a thorough check), they might have rethought putting SL in such an elevated position long ago.
I myself looked through his early years and thought it very odd that the Lakar family would refuse an enthronement ceremony by JKCL and find it hard to believe it was offered at all, as JKCL was one of the greatest living masters of all time and it’s like refusing HHDL. If there were an existing letter of recognition by JKCL, this is a more precious document than a birth certificate or passport. And because the family left Tibet before things got really bad in a leisurely fashion, they would certainly have taken such a precious letter. So my question is: can we see the letter? Is it posted somewhere where JKCL’s handwriting can be verified? Because SL was the nephew by blood of JKCL’s consort, then of course he would hang around with JKCL; this is nothing unusual. What is typical of a wealthy ambitious Tibetan family is a lust for position and often a push for their sons to be recognized to ensure their power, position, and status. However I do question if there was ever such recognition, as certainly in those first 11 years JKCL would have insisted on an enthronement ceremony. Unfortunately we cannot ask JCKL directly and so have little to go on.

Could someone who is a historian or has factual hard evidence and information please share on this thread? Thus far we only have the word of the ambitious Lakar family and for me that is quite insufficient.
68

WILD JEPA on August 1, 2017 at 6:25 am
Reply

https://wildjepa.com/2017/07/30/tibetan-buddhism-the-mother-of-all-delusions/
- 69
  
  tenpel on August 1, 2017 at 9:42 am
  Reply
  
  “Faith creates fear and greed” – I don’t agree with this because faith as understood in Buddhism relates towards really existing objects.
  See: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2015/07/08/what-is-faith-or-devotion-in-buddhism-asangaabhidharmasammuccaya/
70

Friend on August 1, 2017 at 7:44 am
Reply

In his response, OTR shows no compassion for SL victims, and do no condamn his awful behaviour. It’s quite possible to understand this in a way he could be part of the Sogyal ” show” as he has been so many times invited in Lerab Ling …even knowing the sad situation, as so many importants silent leaders of tibetan buddhism and politics too.

JCKL seem having had quite a lack of clairevoyance the time he recognized this Lakar as a Tertön Sogyal…
It’s difficult to know his motivation, maybe he was under influence of the Lakar family and wanted to please his marvelous young wife, it’s hard to know.

Establihed by the XVI° Karmapa,The Trungpa and his vajra regent case is interesting as source of inspiration of “crazy wisdom” for SL. The support and silence of Dilgo Khyentse in both case is quite strange, especialy knowing all what happened and the sad hidden reality…the golden legend is on it’s way, far from genuine Vajrayana…i hope truth will win!
71

Stardust on August 1, 2017 at 8:46 am
Reply

What puzzles me is that the DL in context with ”idealing with other cases” of tibetan buddhist teachers who have ”transgressed”, besides ”in the case of monastics”, seems to be refering to a tibetan lama who breaks ”samaya” as ”an individual who does not listen to the buddhist instructions”. And seems to regard himself as one of the by him mentioned ”ordinary people” ”it is doubtful that they will listen to”.

Do i understand correctly that he is not/does not see himself to be in position of authority and responsability to create consequences, to both check tibetan buddhist teachers qualities/credentials and to comment on teachers in general who break ”the samaya”..?

”HHDL: In the case of monastics, if any of the four root vows—to abandon killing a human being, stealing an object of value, sexual intercourse (heterosexual or homosexual), and lying about one’s spiritual attainments—is fully transgressed, that person must leave the monastery and is no longer a monastic. Aside from that, I do not know of any institutional methods for dealing with other cases.

All forms of abuse are against the general Buddhist rule. If an individual does not listen to the Buddha’s instructions, it is doubtful that they will listen to ordinary people like us. Earlier I suggested that when a teacher is clearly acting unethically and students have tried to discuss it with them but without result, then the only recourse is to publicize it in the community. I assume the teacher would feel ashamed and embarrassed and would decide to alter their behavior. I welcome your ideas on this topic.”

With all respect but his latter assumption has been prooven wrong.

I am puzzled with what i read here also:
”In 2010 he (the DL) stated that “twenty or thirty years ago”, when discussing whether a woman could be a Dalai Lama in the future, he said yes but “I also said half-jokingly that if the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation is female, she must be very attractive. The reason is so that she will have more influence on others.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15th_Dalai_Lama
As I observe that apparently being atrractive and female, as well as devoted to the Guru, are factors of risc and not criteria for respect, in the buddhist world.
- 72
  
  tenpel on August 1, 2017 at 9:56 am
  Reply
  
  Briefly, as Ricard and other (like Williams, Barnett, Lopez, Dodin) correctly pointed out, the Dalai Lama is not a pope and Buddhism is rather anarchic. There is no higher control. However, there is correction (and expulsion from monastic communities) on the peer level, sometimes from your very teacher – but not if you 1) don’t seek his advice, 2) student is arrogant or doesn’t listen or won’t take it serious.
  The statement with the female Dalai Lama must be seen in full context. Basically, the preface is “if the Dalai Lama can be more effective as a woman…, then…” The beauty thing – which some mistook as sexism – is basically based on the fact that beautiful ppl get more attention and are more likely listened too. In that way you have as a Bodhisattva a better basis to help others. A beautiful body (male or female) is one of seven features a Bodhisattva should strive for as a basis to have the best conditions in serving effectively others. For sure prettiness can create some problems too.
  - 73
    
    Stardust on August 1, 2017 at 11:35 am
    Reply
    
    Dear Tenzin,
    It suggests woman need the additional ”merit” of physicall beauty to be taken serieus. I do not share your view it is not a sexist joke.
    Shall we discuss the physical appearace of the 14th DL..?
    
    I take it you will agree a boddhisatva takes every form or shape, use every means required to help eliviate suffering.
    
    I do not think the comparisment of the DL not being in the same position as the pope in the catholic church is helpfull here… I feel it is deriving from the issue brought up and that this counts as wel for pointing out the anarchy of the structure.
    
    Regarding to your pointers on there being correction on peer level but that some teachers ” 1) don’t seek his advice, 2) student is arrogant or doesn’t listen or won’t take it serious.” I would say it shouldn’t need a teacher to seek DL’s advise to get corrected or for creative consequences to be taken within the possibilities of the ”anarchic” structure, when breaking vows so serieusly esp also ”when they dont listen or take advice”. The DL has influence, you cannot deny that and that has been keeping out of this.
    - 74
      
      Stardust on August 1, 2017 at 11:37 am
      Reply
      
      ‘he has been’ instead of ‘has been’
    - 75
      
      tenpel on August 1, 2017 at 1:11 pm
      Reply
      
      Dear Stardust,
      only briefly … (lack of time).
      Its not about a political view or political correctness. It’s a matter of fact (approved by science and common sense or some introspection into our own mental attitudes) that beautiful people get more attention and have it easier in being successful or to being trusted from the start. To repeat a fact is not a sexist joke. BTW, science also found out that a deep male voice is more likely to cause trust to a speaker, therefore the paper said, politicians with a deep voice have a better start to accumulate trust or initial faith or to be listened to. Deeper male voices instil feelings of trust and safety. They also analysed why this is so. Sorry, have to stop here …
      - 76
        
        Stardust on August 1, 2017 at 8:30 pm
        Reply
        
        Dear Tenzin, It is really not the main issue of my posts…
        But (my last comment on this i promise) wether a joke is perceived as sexist or not is totally subjective.
        I can see the remark would have been made wishing a female DL the best possible start. It doesn’t make any differnce, it is still perceived by me as ‘sexist’. It is indeed asa far as i am concerned about political correctness. The DL is a political figure also.
        Mistake easy made, centuries of cultural conditioning etc… I forgive him!
        The other points i raised are far more interesting imo.
- 77
  
  matilda7 on August 3, 2017 at 6:12 am
  Reply
  
  “And seems to regard himself as one of the by him mentioned ”ordinary people” ”it is doubtful that they will listen to”. ?? Please explain.
  - 78
    
    Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 8:20 am
    Reply
    
    Mathilda7, i would be happy to. If you could specify what it is you don’t understand that would be helpfull for me.
    
    One could disagree wether he seems indeed to regard himself as one of the ”ordinary people” that he refers to, that it is doubtfull an individual (interpreted by me as: a teacher/e.g. sogyal) will listen to.
    It would be interesting to hear other interpretations of these words.
    ”If an individual does not listen to the Buddha’s instructions, it is doubtful that they will listen to ordinary people like us.”
79

concerned on August 1, 2017 at 6:17 pm
Reply

In response to ‘friend’s comment:
“JCKL seem having had quite a lack of clairvoyance the time he recognized this Lakar as a Tertön Sogyal… It’s difficult to know his motivation, maybe he was under influence of the Lakar family and wanted to please his marvelous young wife, it’s hard to know.”

My point in my posting was actually we DON’T have evidence that JKCL recognized him. The only thing we know is he was the nephew of the consort of JKCL and therefore spent much time in the presence of JKCL which in itself is a great blessing but not unusual for a consort’s nephew to have proximity. However I remain unconvinced as to his recognition by JCKL and tend to agree with the Tibetan community that he was self appointed. I agree with ‘friend’ in I do hope the truth will prevail.

SL seemed to brag that as a child he disregarded his aunt (the consort of JKCL for later years) when she did not want him to bother JKCL and enter his quarters. Even then SL was disrespectful of women and not just ANY woman, but a khandro. And remember he is NOT a monk and does not have vinaya, but rather the vows and samaya he has broken are around the vow to respect women and not to disparage them in any way. Seems by having contests of which woman could best stroke his hemorrhoid with their bare hands and denigrating them for their performance is absolutely abhorrent and sick. I read that JKCL’s khandro was concerned and against his leaving for the west to teach (unconfirmed), but his mother sent him to the west to make money. Once he had come to Europe and was demonstrating very bad behavior, Dudjom Rinpoche had written to him to give up teaching for awhile, return to India to ‘ripen his practice’ which SL disregarded. See attached links:

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/

https://behindthethangkas.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/3-career-launch-in-london/

And if you research, you will find his dharma training is notably lacking. He seems more to be a CEO of a company that makes a lot of money…. however the good thing is that through this very lucrative company or ‘organization’ some authentic lamas have come through and taught, given transmissions, and blessed many students. So there IS benefit. But have a look at someone like HHDL… he never charges for teaching, he travels in a humble manner, he actually lives very simply and donates gifts to others and money/donations to charities, does not cause suffering or harm to any being, is totally transparent and there is as Matthieu Ricard notes no duplicity at all. Now is the time for Rigpa to put their foot down and oust SL entirely, send him back to India or leave him in Thailand or wherever, but bring in some authentic high lamas to carry on and properly guide the students. IF they don’t I shall never set foot in a Rigpa center again. Not that they or SL cares.
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  Friend on August 4, 2017 at 4:34 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you for your documents about SL.
  I wonder who is on the trone during this strange moment in the temple. SL has a good sens of rythm anyway.
  
  Actually, Mathieu Ricard is the only famous buddhist personnality that told publicly he is shocked by SL awful acts as he said it in the french newspaper Marianne. It has been difficult to get in touch with him and have his opinion….
  https://www.marianne.net/societe/scandale-chez-les-bouddhistes-matthieu-ricard-recommande-aux-disciples-plus-de-vigilance
  
  OTR says he is linked to SL obviously since 1956 and his response to Sangye let me quite suprised by the lack of compassion for the victims he manifests. I’m sad for him and i hope he is not involved in more strange things with his old friend.
  
  I hope the victims of SL will soon manage to get a Vajrasattva Initiation from a pure Lama respect-full for women and students, and practice one million long mantras at least to clean the situation and find a new hope.
  - 81
    
    tenpel on August 4, 2017 at 8:01 pm
    Reply
    
    Why should the victims recite 1.000.000 vajrasattva mantra and not the perpetrator? Richard’s statement is here in full and in English http://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/posts/a-point-of-view–2
    - 82
      
      Friend on August 5, 2017 at 6:59 am
      Reply
      
      Thank you Tenpel for the link , it’s quite interesting to read Ricard’s full letter.
      SL should maybe go on retreat on Phowa and Vajrasattva after confessing publicly in front of his gurus and students…
      - 83
        
        tenpel on August 5, 2017 at 7:29 am
        Reply
        
        Sogyal needs a long term therapy. His students created together with him the environment to create a kind of super-narcissist. Problem is, narcissists can’t see or admit their faults and might even fool the therapist. However, from spiritual point of view honest confession, public excuse, restraint from doing it again, compensating victims then retreat under genuine guidance without too much luxury and a lack of girls would be very good for him and all of his students and Buddhism in general. But, you can doubt this will happen on a serious level – it can become part of the narcissist show that must go on – because he has laid these personality traits for more than 30 years, he is now 70 years old. You cannot overcome this suddenly or overnight, moreover, old obsessive men cannot change easily. Let’s be realistic. If you see his two replies and the Rigpa letter as well what’s going on in Rigpa to defend him, there is no realistic seed for a healthy change. Change and claimed “now we are open” are just part of the show.
        
        84
        
        Friend on August 5, 2017 at 7:52 am
        Reply
        
        I must agree with you, miracles are quite rare in this type of behaviour.
  - 85
    
    Joanne on August 5, 2017 at 4:00 am
    Reply
    
    Is it only in the Gelug tradition that listening (dancing) to music for fun is an infraction of the bodhisattva vow?
86

Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 7:49 am
Reply

I question the DL understands fully the concept of differnce in power also, going by what he says here, from the article above:
”When two people in a relationship treat each other equally, there is no difference in power or status during sexual intercourse. The teacher is not on a throne then!”
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  Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 9:40 am
  Reply
  
  It seems naïve to believe in incarnations whose birthright it apparently is to be percieved as selfrealised…
  
  This quote is quite intersesting imo.
  
  This masculine arrogance becomes particularly obvious in a statement by the young lama, ( *i removed his name her for a less biased reflection) Rinpoche, who announced the following in response to Campbell’s commotion stirring book: “If Western women begin sexual relationships with Tibetan lamas, then the consequence for a number of them is frustration, because their culturally conditioned expectations are not met. If they hope to find an agreeable and equal lover in a Rinpoche, they could not be making a bigger mistake…
  Interesting to reflection on also in combination with the words of the DL in my previous post.
  
  My message to the tulkus, lamas and rinpoches, treat woman as a buddha, it will upgrade your level of spiritual understanding.
  - 88
    
    Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 9:45 am
    Reply
    
    The quote begins with ”This masculine… ending with …bigger mistake.”
89

yamaintaka on August 3, 2017 at 8:54 am
Reply

Maybe we should not underestimate the understanding of HH, When i look at this last sentence, he’s apparently talking about two people, treating each other “equally”, so to me there seems to be nothing wrong in this statement. The question would be rather, if it could be possible for any living being, to enjoy such a relationship with SL….
- 90
  
  Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 11:22 am
  Reply
  
  I saw some questionable quotes and i would have to have more substantial ‘evidence’ that he knows what he is talking about, in healthy ethical western context. I dont know what the situation is in Tibet around woman’s emancipation, I know India has a lot of rape crime. Most sexual crimes involve man as perpetators. It is still a male dominated world. It’s all related somehow imo…
  - 91
    
    Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 11:53 am
    Reply
    
    Sorry for my smetimes jumpy mind.
    Anyhow, ‘society’ is a complex of conditions and factors. Something is happening that is very very wrong. It needs logical thinking logical thinking.
    I am appalled and angry and shocked and sad. How can this happen..? In a buddhist context..!? Do you understand yamaintika..? Mathilda7..?
    
    Taking on some more very bacis principles would be helpfull imo. Ever heard of a female lama with a ”consort’ e.g? If so why not.
    - 92
      
      Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 12:10 pm
      Reply
      
      “Once I started unravelling my experiences, I began to question everything,” she said. That meant not just the actions of a particular guru, but the very idea of the guru. She began to wonder whether the Tantra was just a fantasy, and whether there is really any difference between Tantric sex and ordinary sex. She questioned the very concept of enlightenment itself and the practice of meditation. “I realised that in order to be myself I had to leave it all – completely and utterly.” June Campbell
      http://www.enlighten.org.tw/trueheart_en/32
      - 93
        
        tenpel on August 3, 2017 at 2:00 pm
        Reply
        
        Yes, that’s hers conclusion not mine or most of us’. I’ve studied the tantras and they make sense. She threw out the baby with the bath water, I don’t think that’s wise, though understandable and some do it likewise.
        
        94
        
        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 7:04 pm
        Reply
        
        I see her breaking the first three fetters, but that might not be part of Tibetan canon.
        
        95
        
        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 10:26 pm
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        I read this´´The fourteenth Dalai Lama of the Gelug sect, holds that the practice (of tantric texts) should only be done as a visualization.´´ Could you, for my better understanding, please confirm wether this is accurate information Tenpel? (or anyone) To help me figure out where the DL stands in the tradion of Tibetan Yoga… as apparently the Gelug have, according to the text, an oppsite view on the practice… Thank you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexuality
        I have no intention to offend anyone here with taken on a critical perspective on somethings, and i am sorry if this has appeared so.
        If my request touches again on something sensitive that i dont quite understand please forgive me.
    - 96
      
      tenpel on August 3, 2017 at 1:57 pm
      Reply
      
      Yeshe Tsogyal’s consort was Padmasambhava – unlike the Western pseudo-Dakinis she was realised and highly likely not manipulated into the relationship. Further, no complaints by her so far. Of course, usually it’s described from the male perspective. What worries me a bit is, since you don’t have a good understanding – as far as I got it – of Tibet, Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism you start here some type of guess work – recently even recommending the conspiracy work of Trimondis. There are enough ill informed and speculative accounts with misleading conclusions already online and this blog actual is dedicated to untangle these, to stress the complex backgrounds, to differentiate etc but each ill informed comment would require some extra work to address what’s been claimed – I lack the time currently … Therefore, I would like to ask you to also read some good academic papers or books about the whole and to start discussion from an informed perspective otherwise we end here as ill informed and speculating as Mike Garde’s Dialogue Ireland. Thanks!
      PS: Been critical based on good understanding (or good arguments) of (about) a complex phenomenon such as Tibetan Buddhism or the culture of Tibet is highly welcomed here! If not, it’s also fine but gives the whole another dimension and me or other contributors some extra work.
      - 97
        
        Stardust on August 3, 2017 at 6:58 pm
        Reply
        
        Tenpel: yes i knew you would come up with some historical examples of a female with a male consort. 😉 I am glad there is one positive rolemodel then. Me not having good understanding of Tibet, Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism l the tibetan context, makes me an interesting observer in my own rights. Please do counterarque my arguments as you would a less informed on the above!
        I didn’t recommend ”the conspiracy work of Trimondis” that was Emahaho. I fid you respond about my input rather condecending, but i understand , both ways, this medium makes it hard sometimes to see where people are coming from.
        
        98
        
        tenpel on August 4, 2017 at 7:19 am
        Reply
        
        Oh, thank you for your openness and please excuse my error of attributing the Trimondi recommendation to you. Basically, we need sound discussion based on good knowledge otherwise we deepen the confusion or throw out the baby with the bath water (which is also ok but I don’t strive for that as a service for the blog visitors here).
        Basically, a dakini is a realised lady who is able to manifest the very subtle clear light mind. They are regarded as holy and not objects to be beaten, humiliated and treated as mere shit as Sogyal Lakar does it. I gave also the example of a Nyingma yogi I met personally and with whom I lived for 30 days together. He had two wives, one of them a dakini or real tantric consort. She, the Dakini, was suggested to him as a tantric consort by Dudjom Rinpoche. (There are procedures, including dreams and others, to find a dakini and there are qualifications they should have.) This yogi spoke in highest awe of her, the yogini, and when he came back to India, she knew of the faults he had done in Europe, she scolded him badly and left him. From this last example you can learn, that this is not a slave-master relationship and that a real dakini is able to take care of herself.
        All of this doesn’t deny errors or wrong things at other occasions but as usual things are more complex.
        Please do also counter my arguments if unreasonable too. I don’t want to censor or brainwash people, basically I strive to understand things better and based on good understanding there will be saner judgements or reasonable decisions and actions or discussions will likely be more wholesome and beneficial.
        
        99
        
        tenpel on August 4, 2017 at 7:30 am
        Reply
        
        I am sorry for the condescending attitude and the pain or irritation it might have created. Thank you for making me aware of it. From now on I’ll try to be more aware of it in order to tackle and in order to avoid it. If you find it again pls don’t hesitate to point it out. Thank you!
        
        100
        
        Stardust on August 4, 2017 at 11:24 am
        
        Thank you tenpel! Thank you for your patience…
        I agree, ofcourse some teachers m/f will be able to have healthy sexual relationships… I think this is a good article btw.
        https://tricycle.org/magazine/sex-sangha-again/
        
        101
        
        tenpel on August 4, 2017 at 4:03 pm
        
        Thank you. When I remember correctly I quoted from that article in my first post here about SL back in 2012. The quote says something around people don’t come to dharma Centers to have sex with the lama. I found this very to the point and hinting what a huge brainwashing must there be if people end up in bed with the Lama though they sought the dharma and not the penis of the lama.
        
        102
        
        Joanne on August 5, 2017 at 4:08 am
        
        Hi Stardust, I think this is an important topic and maybe one that deserves a full post. I will ask Tenzin about that. I know little about consorts in tantra except for a brief teaching His Holiness gave on it. In this, he stated clearly that the male should have reached a state of realization such that he is capable of restraining ejaculation. I will look up the full quote and maybe find some others. Milarepa also had consorts. as did his disciples.
        
        103
        
        Stardust on August 5, 2017 at 11:18 am
        
        Thank you very much Joanne.
        
        I read ”A great majority of Tibetans believe that the only proper practice of tantric texts is metaphorically” on wiki, but that there are different view on it. t says ”The dominant Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism holds that sexual yoga as an actual physical practice is the only way to attain Buddhahood in one lifetime.” It says also ”The fourteenth Dalai Lama of the Gelug sect, holds that the practice should only be done as a visualization.”
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexuality#Sexual_Yoga
        That is allready very confusing as i read somewhere else ”Gelugpa is best known in the West as the school of Tibetan Buddhism associated with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.”https://www.thoughtco.com/the-gelug-school-of-tibetan-buddhism-449627
        
        I would like to comprehend what is the difference between having/ being a concort and being in a relationship with someone. It seems like a very male concept alltogether.
        It seems so far to me in the tibetan tradition one can diffentiate between tantra either to include physical/sexual practice or exclude the latter in which case the essence of tantra is refleted in ritual, visualisation and tibetan yoga practices? I am curious if there are esoteric secret practices also, or if it’s all in sutra’s that are freely accesible. I am personally only familiar with the modern age teachers who represent/incorporate Tibetan Yoga like Tarthang Tulku e.g.
        
        104
        
        Stardust on August 5, 2017 at 12:50 pm
        
        I would presume ”a state of realization such that he (the man) is capable of restraining ejaculation” would be a minimum criteria. 😉
- 105
  
  Stardust on August 5, 2017 at 2:43 pm
  Reply
  
  I see what you mean yamaintaka, as the question put to him was: ”What is your opinion: are there times when sexual relationships between a Buddhist teacher and their student could be appropriate?” He nevertheless does adres inpapropriateness in his respond and does not encompass the complex teacher/student dynamics and risc of exploitation when powerdynamics are involved.
  I don’t know if he said more about this at other times. If so that would be intersting to know.
  
  I appriciate the stand Jack Kornfield takes, also refered to by tenpel below, in the article ”Sex in the angha …again.”.
  JK says here: ”There’s no problem with sex itself. Some people choose to be celibate. Some people choose to enjoy sexual relations. Both can be done as a part of spiritual practice.”
  
  Grace Schireson says in the same article ”A person doesn’t come to a Buddhist community to grow through a sexual relationship with a teacher. They come to a Buddhist community to study Buddhism. So in a teacher-student sexual relationship, the primary purpose of that relationship has been subverted.”
  
  I think it is intersting to figure out where the traditional practice of (sexual) tantra as part of the Vayrajana fits in here, and how it might have failed to have emanticaped.
  
  Kornfield is spot on here imo:
  ”You’re quite right that our communities are structured from the top down. That’s because the traditions themselves have been patriarchal and top-down. To address this, what we’ve set up in our community at Spirit Rock is an independent ethics council. A small group of teachers who are most respected for their balance and integrity are elected to it—the balance is important, because these issues can stir up a hornet’s nest, and when emotions are triggered, people tend to think unclearly. So the council is made up of the elected teachers, a community member, and a board member who are independent from the board or the head teacher. They have the power to investigate, to look for reconciliation, and, if necessary, to come back to the board or the community and require changes. There has to be a process that’s outside of the hierarchy that you described.”
  
  Because of the top down structure this should in my understanding involve the top, as who else has the power? But i understand also that it is a complex mixture of elements that are of influence…
  
  It is a very interesting article alltogether, putting the issue of abuse and exploitation in quite a broad context.
  
  ”https://tricycle.org/magazine/sex-sangha-again/
  - 106
    
    Stardust on August 5, 2017 at 3:06 pm
    Reply
    
    i mean ”change” where i wrote ”this” in ”Because of the top down structure this should in my understanding involve the top, as who else has the power?
107

robh on August 4, 2017 at 5:02 pm
Reply

I will note with interest that it appears that men have female consorts yet we rarely hear about (or see depicted) women often having male consorts. Of course conditioned attitudes about sex gender and power have a long history every where. I think it indicates that awakening is not only a personal matter but a collective one as well.
- 108
  
  Stardust on August 5, 2017 at 10:11 am
  Reply
  
  Yes Robh spot on. Indeed concerned ”The attitudes towards women in eastern cultures are far far behind the west.”
  
  I find June Cambells refelections very interesting. Here some quotes fom her:
  
  ” I argue that early Tibetan Buddhism replaced much of the Mother Goddess worship and incorporated all the female symbolism of the Lotus Goddess into Chenrezig [the Bodhisattva of Compassion]. The tulku system was what put the tin lid on any potential for women to gain equality in the religious sphere, or for their voices to be heard.”
  
  The Tibetans incorporated an aspect of Buddhist teachings that had to do with rebirth and reincarnation into the social system, so that you had divine incarnation or what are called tulkus– little boys–that are identified as being the reincarnations of previous lamas and are born with advanced capacities for enlightenment. In other words: power by incarnation. And these boys are taken away from their mothers and from the domain of the family and raised in the all-male environments of the monasteries.;;
  
  ”in the functioning of the system, to have an actual sexual consort is considered the most important ingredient in the path of tantra. That’s where so much of the confusion and ambivalence and misogyny come into play, because you have both: the emphasis on male monastic society and, at the same time the need for women, but without the acknowledgment of the role women play.”
  
  ”It’s sad to say but I don’t think any advice about standing up to teachers would stop some young women from wanting to have a safe and comfortable relationship with a male teacher and later on being exploited.”
  
  You can read the whole interview for context here.
  http://www.anandainfo.com/tantric_robes.html
109

concerned on August 5, 2017 at 2:41 am
Reply

The attitudes towards women in eastern cultures are far far behind the west.
But there is also what I have observed to be a ‘khandro syndrome’ among naive western women which is problematic. The Tibetan women would not wish to be called a dakini as often dakinis are fat and fearsome and horribly ugly! In the west I have observed many a woman dressing the part, hair up, jewelry, the works to try to ‘look’ like they are dakinis. SL apparently likes young women in short skirts, revealing necklines, and very skinny and is happy to call them ‘dakinis’ if it serves his purposes. There is so much ignorance around the term and SL has misused it entirely to deceive them. This is an illegal sex ring, and that slippery little swarmy lech should be arrested. I hope someone made tapes and pursues legal measures.

It is embarrassing to watch what should be intelligent women dancing for him on command, and hearing they have to bathe him and wipe his butt, and they do it?! And the men must know their wives are sleeping with SL, and do the wives know what the men are asked to do by SL? I have to think ‘what is WRONG’ with these people? So where the Tibetans are embarrassed that SL is sitting on a throne, westerners are embarrassed to watch and learn the way both men and women behave around him.

I would say if I found out if other lamas were partaking in the SL activities in any way, or had seen the collages of the naked students and not done anything, I would never sit before them.
I’m staying clear of all things Rigpa.
- 110
  
  tenpel on August 5, 2017 at 5:48 am
  Reply
  
  In one case known to me Sogyal asked the lady to promise him not to tell her husband about having sex with him. The lady and Sogyal cheated the husband that way for five years. The husband is a disciple of Sogyal and a senior Rigpa instructor. So this senior Rigpa instructor and faithful disciple of Sogyal Rinpoche was cheated by his guru and his wife. When this man found out after five years what was going on, he was in pain of course and started to inform people around him, but after a brief period of bringing it to light, he stopped and retreated into silence.
  Considering this case, Sogyal therefore not only indulged in sexual misconduct, he also gave his student, the lady, a negative vow to lie, Sogyal lied and deceived himself by cheating his own faithful student, on top of it he also engaged the lady in sexual misconduct. With a vow to lie you accumulate minute by minute negative karma. If you consider only this case from a karmic point of view, he has harmed especially the lady tremendously. Sogyal himself created even more negative karma … But these well educated westerners (most of them middle class people) are so brainwashed by the idea the guru is always right and only their perception is wrong that they cannot even comprehend the very obvious. I found it revealing (from the point of view of self-censorship) that the cheated husband got insecure about making his case known and retreated into silence, stopping to communicate what happened to him.
- 111
  
  Friend on August 5, 2017 at 8:30 am
  Reply
  
  Everything is possible, for example, look how Trungpa and his para-military Shambala sect , not speaking of his “aware infected” HIV contaminating vajra-regent ,succeeded in mystfying so many people. And Trungpa was called a Mahasiddha by Dilgo Khyentse and XVI Karmapa who entroned him as Karma Kaguyd lineage holder and confirmed his vajra-regent too.
  http://www.vrot.org/proc.html
  Here is a short “Wiki-biography” with interesting links:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa
  Even the actual Dilgo Khyenrse Yangsi praise him, even he was born after Trungpa’death:
  https://www.chronicleproject.com/what-trungpa-rinpoche-did/
  And (Mindroling) Khandro Rimpoche wrote a guruyoga for the former Trungpa vajra-regent:
  
  Click to access guruyoga.pdf
  
  I hope they won’t call SL a Mahasiddha soon…
  
  Many westeners became crazy without wisdom with Dharma, that’s a sad story which includes the “dakini syndrom” with a miunderstanding of the meaning exploited by fools who think they are stronger than the law of causality.
  Like Lama Norlha recently ejected from his center, etc…
  https://www.lionsroar.com/kagyu-thubten-choling-addresses-sangha-about-lama-norhla-rinpoches-sexual-misconduct-with-students/
  What a sad image of Vajrayana they give to the world.
- 112
  
  Stardust on August 5, 2017 at 4:17 pm
  Reply
  
  I read here ”Padmasambhava, the eighth-century pioneer of Buddhism in Tibet, reasoned that women are better equipped to realize the wisdom of the teachings.” Interesting article. Within the framework of my limited understanding it makes sense to assume a dakini is an archetype just as the buddha when refering to buddhanature/as in the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya. Please correct me if i am going to much off the tibetan buddhist track here.
  Both a buddha and a dakini go behond gender indentifications. Lets also not underestimate the power of the dakini’s indeed. Their voices are being heard. Soyals dakini’s are not mere victums but represent true dakini wisdom and power. Tsultrim Allione is quoted saying “If we are not willing to invite the dakini into our life, then we cannot enter these subtle states of mind. Sometimes the dakinis appear as messengers, sometimes as guides, and sometimes as protectors.” They sure do. As archetypal qualities in man also ofcourse. _()_
  http://www.dakinipower.com/what-is-a-dakini/
113

Friend on August 5, 2017 at 7:14 am
Reply

I’m not suprised at all….
- 114
  
  tenpel on August 5, 2017 at 7:45 am
  Reply
  
  BTW, according to what I learned so far Sogyal has never done a retreat. He also doesn’t formally meditate but claimed he is always in meditation… if anybody has another knowledge, please correct me or add it. Thanks.
  - 115
    
    Buddy on August 20, 2017 at 12:02 am
    Reply
    
    Hi Tenpel, SR does about 2.5 to 3 hours practice everyday. He 1st does lots of prayers like homage to the buddhas & bodhisattvas, then he does the LN ngondro with 100 vajrasattva etc. Then he does all the lama sadhanas like riwo sangcho, TN, dorje drolo. Then vajrakilaya and many more yidam practices and dakini practices. Then he does a lengthily protectors practice, and the tsok. In this, he rests in the nature of mind throughout. It’s very inspiring and powerful to sit there with him.
    
    He does this everyday. I’ve been around SR a lot for 11 years and so, I can tell you this with all sincerity. Sometimes he’s up till 2am doing his practice!
    - 116
      
      tenpel on August 20, 2017 at 12:14 am
      Reply
      
      Students told he does nothing and said that SL told them, he hasn’t to meditate because he is always in meditation.
      
      I will ask the group of 8 who know him longer than you. Thanks for this hint!
    - 117
      
      tenpel on August 20, 2017 at 7:44 am
      Reply
      
      Hi Buddy, thanks again. This is an important information and correction of what was known to me so far. It was confirmed with this information (with permission to quote): “Yes he does a lot of practice – I don’t know that it is that long but it can be. I wouldn’t say anything against his practice itself. I wouldn’t say he does all the mantras they say but maybe he does if he can chant supernaturally fast. He does practice though – daily – it was one of the good qualities”
      - 118
        
        Buddy on August 20, 2017 at 12:23 pm
        Reply
        
        Hi Tenpel,
        
        I’ve been a student of SR for 17 years, so longer than at least one or two of the 8.
        
        SR’s practice is very important to him and this comes down to us as his students too. For instance, SR has trained me to such a degree in practice, that I would never engage in sadhana until I’ve done my daily ngondro, because this sequence makes sense – take refuge, bodhicitta, purify ones obscurations that veil, mandala, then merge mind with the wisdom mind of the master, receive the 4 empowerments, become one with lama GR and then arise as the lama in the sdhanas. This is the way SR has trained us as his students, and it is very powerful. So each day I do a full ngondro before engaging with my daily sadhana.
        
        He also doesn’t let students practice sadhana until they have done at least two years in the ngondro. Of course, sometimes people go to a centre and are handed a sadhana book. But this is not the wish of SR, just ignorance on the part of those handing them out. But it’s this 2 year rule.
        
        The Rigpa sangha do an enormous amount of practice each day. This only comes to a student if this is the teacher’s approach.
        
        The person you quote above says ..’if he can chant supernaturally fast..” and actually the answer is yes! He can chant the 100 syllable mantra, out loud 108 times, in 5 minutes!!!! From this, I can now chat the same amount without missing a syllable, in 10 minutes (on a good day!).
        
        Thanks for acknowledging the above and write again just to say from my side what I see and to say how I’ve been trained by SR regarding practice.
        
        There is more to say, but maybe another time!
        
        Best wishes,
        
        Buddy
        
        119
        
        tenpel on August 20, 2017 at 12:46 pm
        Reply
        
        Hi Buddy,
        Thank you for your kindness to share this. Very helpful. We need to be correct and balanced and this is helpful information. Best wishes, T
120

Concerned on August 5, 2017 at 7:30 am
Reply

Its a shame but these are grown adults who must stand on their feet, use their intelligence and common sense, analyze the teacher and his methods, and get out if they find it wrong. I really don’t understand why people stay.
They seem to be a prisoner of their own delusions. And if that senior student took the bodhisattva vow then he should have kept speaking up and taken it further. And the wife – well she should have said no way to sleeping with that smarm and then she wouldn’t have to lie to and deceive her husband. I don’t know- I get exhausted hearing all these terrible stories but these people could have said no and walked away! It’s not that hard! Then sue and make a fortune and I don’t know…make a movie about it. SLs been at it for so long and dodged so many allegations (the high cost of teachings there must go to something) so pack up and leave and find an authentic lama. Sometimes I think westerners lose their heads, lose basic common sense, flock like blind sheep and forget what /why. Then a charlatan can come along and easily do whatever he wants.
Actually OTR is right!!
- 121
  
  tenpel on August 5, 2017 at 8:44 am
  Reply
  
  I am sorry, it seems you don’t understand how powerful mass delusions based on indoctrination can become. It’s worth to read literature about cults. Cultish systems operate in the realm of fuzziness at the end you don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong. The indoctrination comes slightly without that you are usually able to see or feel it, like poisoned meat fed to hungry dogs.
  OTR is not right. His logic is silly too. Having no clue or understanding about such dynamics you’re not in the position to give advice, isn’t it?
122

Joanne on August 5, 2017 at 8:55 am
Reply

Concerned, you say, “I get exhausted hearing all these terrible stories but these people could have said no and walked away! It’s not that hard!”

Sadly, it is hard. Not only because of the cult-like dynamic of Rigpa, but also there is a powerful magnetism to Sogyal himself. I was in his sphere for 18 months and I also would have done things, if he’d asked, that now I view as unthinkable. From a distance, with all that’s reported about him, it’s easy to simply say that he has no realization, he’s just a businessman etc. However, I had powerful spiritual experiences while under his influence– and many others of his students report the same. In my opinion, this trouble is not simply thousands of stupid, insane people who have no courage or integrity. It’s much more complicated, both in terms of the cult-power dynamics within Rigpa and Sogyal himself.
- 123
  
  Friend on August 5, 2017 at 11:26 am
  Reply
  
  It must be very hard for thousands of people to admit they followed a wrong master mixing buddhist genuine teachings and new-age seducing mass-blabla…and acting publicly as privately with violence.(punching a nun last year in public).
  Especialy when SL invited during the last 40 years so many head lamas touching heads as if evrerything was ok…(HHDudjom,HH Dilgo Khyentse,HHDL,HHST,…).
  I agree with Joanne, that it’s not a simple story at all but it’s difficult for me to accept that authentic spiritual experience can happen with someone like SL.
  
  By the way, a very good book that i read with pleasure:
  - 124
    
    tenpel on August 5, 2017 at 3:53 pm
    Reply
    
    but it’s difficult for me to accept that authentic spiritual experience can happen with someone like SL.
    
    if you read Robert J. Lifton’s “Destroying the World in Order to Save it” you can see that people made extraordinary experiences in Shoko Asahara’s presence. Clinging to the experiences and believing they are testimony to his spiritual qualities led many of his disciples to deny that Shoko Asahara – who also abused Tibetan guru yoga to command slavish obedience – became insane and a serin gas terrorist. They just couldn’t get both worlds together.
    
    The solution to solve this conundrum lies in thinking about dependent arising, buddha nature at both sides and the power of faith (placebo effect). If there is a deep openness and faith in a student even if the object of faith doesn’t have particularly outstanding spiritual qualities, you can make deep experiences which reflect rather your own innate qualities than those of the object of your faith.
    
    There is much to think about this point. If you’re interested I could go deeper into it. I wrote about this on the What Now? blog when I remember correctly. I wrote more about these processes on my German blog about Buddhist cults. This is quite of an important subject because people in cults often made so powerful good experiences (which they in general attribute rather to the guru than their own innate qualities, faith or openness) that they often cannot get these powerful experiences together with the many reported wrongdoings. Without unraveling these processes, one might stuck, not been able to move forward, struggling to deny either the bad or the good instead of accepting that both good and bad can coexist, that good and bad experiences are not in opposition or invalidate each other, but came into existence in dependence on their respective causes and conditions.
    Since nativity is a main cause of what happened here and elsewhere, using dependent arising can become a powerful a tool to understand. I think, applying the reason of dependent arising is a solution for all those who struggle with this or who want to understand what happened and how it could happen.
    
    Let’s take refuge in the dharma of Buddha’s teachings about dependent arising.
    - 125
      
      tenpel on August 5, 2017 at 3:57 pm
      Reply
      
      This placebo thing and analysis should be somewhere here in the comment section when I remember correctly: https://whatnow727.wordpress.com/2017/07/17/feedback-and-constructive-suggestions-from-a-group-of-concerned-students/#more-221
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concerned on August 5, 2017 at 9:58 pm
Reply

Well said Tenpel. I always bow down to the dharma itself. and thanks Joanne for your insight from personal experience. I admit I don’t understand the cult mentality and I hope that the Rigpa students can disentangle themselves one by one and get a healthy distance to heal and trust again. These students deserve the best guidance. If they just gather enough self respect and courage to step out, they will get clarity, and then they will wonder why they hadn’t left sooner! Yes maybe they don’t realize they have the power inside of them, that buddha is their own mind. You can’t go wrong with HHDL.

OK will leave it here and I wish you all the very best in your dharma practice. Thank you for allowing me to express my concerns.
127

Friend on August 7, 2017 at 9:18 am
Reply

You should listen to Kalu Rinpoche’s talk to the LA Dharmadhatu in 88…after the trungpa-vajra-regent aid’s transmited to male student.
It’s interesting concerning samayas and lama-student relationship…
https://www.chronicleproject.com/letters-of-the-current-situation/
I refuse personnaly this vision and all my compassion goes first to the victims of such “masters” .

“Errare humanum est sed perseverare diabolicum”
Best wishes to every body 😉
128

Jannik Moller on August 10, 2017 at 1:41 pm
Reply

It has been interesting reading. Thank You.
I just want to say a few words to the victims of Sogyal:
Do not worry. Keep on practising the Dharma. The precious human body is hard to obtain.
Your Samaya has NOT been broken. It is rather foolish to claim.
On the contrary, Sogyal has created a lot of bad karma for which he will suffer much later on.
So have Compassion with him. You have known him, so pray for him and then forget about
him.
There are still realised Masters in the world who are not abusing anyone. Go there.
Do not give up. Be happy. The past is gone, the future is Yours. You are wonderful people, and You have met The Teachings of The Buddha, what a blessing!
OM AH HUM VAJRA GURU PADMA SIDDHI HUM
129

jigje on August 10, 2017 at 3:23 pm
Reply

Perhaps this deserves it’s own separate post: HHDL video in which he publicly calls out Sogyal Lakar and labels him disgraced? https://youtu.be/0wP4rsM7AZQ

One can only hope that this will be the nail in the coffin for him and that those who have been “under his spell” all these years will finally wake up and bail.
- 130
  
  tenpel on August 11, 2017 at 8:30 am
  Reply
  
  Your wish has been fulfilled. Joanne worked on that since yesterday already:
  https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2017/08/11/hh-dalai-lama-and-others-speak-out-about-sogyal-rinpoche-his-behaviour/
  - 131
    
    jigje on August 11, 2017 at 2:52 pm
    Reply
    
    Wonderful and excellent. Have already sent the link to a number of friends and acquaintances.
132

HH Dalai Lama And Others Speak Out About Sogyal Rinpoche & His Behaviour – Tibetan Buddhism – Struggling With Diffi·Cult Issues on August 11, 2017 at 7:41 am
Reply

[…] recently spoke about the response of Orgyen Tulku Rinpoche to the situation, in which he claimed categorically that the writers of the letter have broken […]
133

John jab on August 17, 2017 at 7:38 am
Reply

So now after 13/15 years these eight people are waking up to wrong doings of SR, it is ridiculous that now they are pretending to be the saviour and waking up or caoutioning others.
If all these are true then these eight people are also guilty for covering up and they too are equally guilty.
You cannot now try to be on the other side and act like now you have realized and changed of heart. Now let’s bring him down. I want you also to be sued along with SR. I hate cover up, at times they do more harm then the actual harmer.
Hope and pray that the alleged victims will find peace and reconciliation in their journey.
- 134
  
  tenpel on August 17, 2017 at 7:53 am
  Reply
  
  Guilty is no concept in Buddhism, depending arising is. If you consider the situation deeply from dependent arising and the complexities going along with indoctrination, manipulation and cult issues, there is no problem to understand them. Moreover, they don’t want to bring him down they want to end the culture of abuse and protect potential future victims. This is noble and fine, or anything wrong with that? Obviously, you don’t have an understanding of domestic abuse or abuse and structures going along with it.
  Prayers to end abuse or wishful thinking or good wishes for „alleged victims“ are not much of a help. Abuse needs actions and putting a strong stop on it. Victims need our time, listening and compassion, our opening up for their voices and pain! Their pain needs to be heard, felt, to be taken seriously and acknowledged! The group of 8 started that process. That’s why my and others‘ praise is with them.
  However, yes, they have also to reflect their own role in that but how much this even more true for those who still toss the party line of a claimed unfailing holy guru and problems only coming from students‘ impure perception and we should be non-judgemental?
  At least these 8 have taken painful responsibility and changed finally their mind. After all we are human beings and we can fail, great are those who can see and admit their faults and stop doing them again. These eight are on the way, others are still lost in deep delusions. It’s worth to see what courage their actions needed, courage that (IMO) is based on compassion, wisdom and ethics.
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John jab on August 17, 2017 at 10:57 am
Reply

You certainly try to sound like having some expertise on domestic abuse. I dont need to have idea because I have lived with that experience from a young age.
More than the actual perpetrator, many time, it is the entourage that pretends nothing has happend or try to convince you that it is ones lack of faith and delusion.
Guilt in similar connotation like Christianity might not exist in Buddhism but it stays within the mind of individual. Either liberate it love compassion etc etc or face the law. They can’t be a way out before paying the price of Involvement.
No faith is above law and no Guru is above too.
Prayers to end abuse might be wishful thinking to you but not to me because it’s a compassionate wish from one person with similar experience to another Person.
One thing I agree with you that is to take concrete step or action. For that there is something called law.
Far better and effective than feeding on our own anger and disappointment.
I would continue to maintain my wishful prayer for anyone going through any form of abuses everywhere.
In moment of difficulties even a word can bring a solace in the heart.
- 136
  
  tenpel on August 17, 2017 at 1:10 pm
  Reply
  
  No, I don’t have expertise in domestic abuse. I apologise if what I wrote gives this wrong impression.
  It was suggested by a scientist to get knowledge about this when evaluating these abuses. Point is, this is all very complex!
  
  Thank, you, I agree, its true, the entourage or the environment plays a crucial part in abuse. Often its even the mother herself who doesn’t speak up if the own daughter or son is sexually abused – (often) because of emotional or financial dependence on the perpetrator – as a recent research in Germany found out. In cases of schools etc or orphanages etc. its often the whole adult environment who ignores what’s going on, or ignores the signs, and who is silent, and all of them become more or less complicit. Because of that: who ever points out the abuse breaks the silence and needs to be appreciated and praised! (However, this does in no way deny own complicit behaviour…)
  
  I totally agree, “No faith is above law and no Guru is above too”, however, what Dzongzar Khyentse seems to promote here seems to be basically the opposite of this. You could argue, he promotes a sociopathic world outside of conventional norms. Another doubt about his writing: the outside world is dualistic and therefore samsaricly bad while the tantric world outside of social norms is pure and good, isn’t this nothing else than dualism? Its also strange and even much worrying that so many praise his writing(!) – his writing should be critically examined and deconstructed but not praised as outstanding. A critic said on telephone: his writing gives the impression of a defence rand of someone who has been caught red-handed.
  
  Sorry, I didn’t know your background, for me it appeared to be a post from a defender of SR behaviour, now attacking those who stop the abuse and calling the victims “alleged victims” sounded as if you don’t take seriously what has been reported here. That’s why it sounded like a denigration of the victims and the harm they experienced and prayers towards victims who are not been taken seriously seemed to be hypocritical. So, basically, I misjudged what you wanted to say or express. I am sorry for this. Thank you for the clarification!
  
  I totally agree also here:
  
  …to take concrete step or action. For that there is something called law.
  Far better and effective than feeding on our own anger and disappointment.
  I would continue to maintain my wishful prayer for anyone going through any form of abuses everywhere.
  In moment of difficulties even a word can bring a solace in the heart.
137

Ck on August 22, 2017 at 5:12 am
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Kudos to the survivors for speaking out, and I hope they stand strong. But why are these survivors of abuse so worried about breaking their samaya? I don’t believe in samaya but if I did, I would want reassurance that mine IS broken, 100%, and can never be repaired. Why get nostalgic about a bond with a sociopath that should never have existed in the first place?
138

Connie Cook on August 23, 2017 at 1:06 am
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Crushed and heartbroken..
139

4 clarity on August 25, 2017 at 3:39 pm
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A Delayed Reaction to Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche’s Letter to Sangye under the Heading, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, from the website devoted to OTR’s teachings…after Reading the Response of DJKR on Facebook.

We have all been sitting in the dark for what seems like a long time. Then, thanks to 8 Kind and Courageous Bodhisattvas, someone turns on the light, and we all can see!

The weakest arguments that OTR makes in his Letter to Sangye about the breakage of Samaya are 1) the insubstantial remark of one who stands high above the ones he is speaking to in his shaming implication, “If you are all so smart, how can you be so stupid?” There is probably a clinical term for this type of shaming and bullying. DJKR also takes this pitiful stance in his Facebook response, as if to say that hundreds or thousands of people who are intelligent should know beforehand that they will be cunningly deceived and/or abused by someone who exercises the broad power to do just that if he wishes, just because we “voted him in with confidence” so to speak. Only a Buddha is omniscient. But the lack of omniscience in the Courageous 8 seems to be taken against them in OTR’s next condescending argument. 2) OTR judges those that spoke out against Sogyal L’s abuse as having “turned on Sogyal L”, because they are somehow offended that after having endured Sogyal L.’s abuse for so long they are peevishly angry at not being Enlightened yet. In an attempt to shame the signatories and anyone reading into silence, OTR flatly implies that they are exercising revenge for Sogyal for not having “enlightened them”! This is not a line of Logic that would get anyone through the gates of Nalanda University. It would be hard to imagine Naropa giving OTR & DJKR his seal of approval on these grounds. Anyone is free to see that these arguments of OTR & DJKR are Bad Medicine.

We don’t have to be Enlightened to See the Truth before our very eyes! As ordinary sentient beings with our sense faculties intact we are not deceived, we can all see the truth if we open our eyes. There is light after all — isn’t that Rigpa? Our lives are precious, that is our best instinct. That is our first Samaya. To our Buddha Nature and to the Buddha Nature of all sentient beings.

Just like Chandrakirti taught in his Entry into the Middle Way, in his final refutations of the argument held by the extreme view tending toward nihilism, namely that Nothing Exists, or that the Relative Truth doesn’t exist because it is skewed by our unenlightened minds: Chandrakirti rejoiced in the Great Compassion of the Buddha’s Middle Way in triumphantly declaring that what we see IS THERE, and that the collective discriminating wisdom of ordinary sentient beings and their general consensus of a relative truth proves its existence, plain and simple, without any need to belabor the point. That is the beauty of Interdependence united with the sword of wisdom of Emptiness — may we all realize it! So if 8 or 800 people all saw Sogyal L. punch a nun, it may be relative, but it is the truth. The 8 or 800 people present who witnessed it are not deceived! (Unless we are talking about the deception of the one who sits on a throne and commits such an evil deed against his own Sangha.) And now that it has been acknowledged, we can look past it and be free of it. What a relief! It is like a tiny taste of the peace the Buddha was talking about when he first spoke after attaining Enlightenment.

On what grounds is OTR’s hardline approach to Samaya taken? The only place in his Letter to Sangye where OTR goes soft is in his sentimental and lasting recollection of Dzongsar Khyentse Chokyi Lodro leading Sogyal Lakar by the hand around a stupa. Seems his master did everything to set him on the right path, so it is even a bigger shame that Sogyal L. did not follow his lead. Proximity to greatness unfortunately does not render greatness in the grandest sense: with the Great View in Mind. This lasting impression of Sogyal L., clearly in awe of him as a child, when OTR was only a child himself, speaks volumes. Seems like a dream…. One of the lessons from Sogyal L.’s Tibetan Book of Living and Dying for all those moved by his guru devotion to follow him.

Lastly, it’s painfully hard to excuse Orgyan Tobgyal’s weakness for a past long gone and his quiet, almost tacit, request not to pass judgment out of sympathy for his and Sogyal L’s advancing years, as if to say that memory doesn’t serve him so well anymore…. Sorry about that. We’re holding you to the Truth and your promise, your vow, your pledge, your Samaya to tell it. Or not having the correct definitive translation, did the translator mess up the banner heading on ALL-OTR? Perhaps ANYTHING BUT THE TRUTH is more accurate than Nothing But the Truth, so help me God/s. Please don’t put all the blame on Gyurme, he seems like a nice person.

To The Courageous 8 who acted collectively with white intentions to end the suffering of those close to heart and home, and then, further abroad — Isn’t that the true and noble meaning of Sangha and the Samaya that holds it together? With heart brimming with gratitude, I rejoice in your virtuous action — May it bring you and all sentient beings ultimate benefit!
140

Troy on September 4, 2017 at 11:44 am
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If you take all the Buddha beads off these guys, they are fundamentally just a bunch of creeps trying to get laid. Anyone else would have been charged by the cops. There are so many inspirational, ordinary heroes in the world, listen to your heart that is the only guru you need to follow.
- 141
  
  tenpel on September 4, 2017 at 12:12 pm
  Reply
  
  It doesn’t help to get radical throwing the baby out with the bath water.
- 142
  
  Joanne on September 4, 2017 at 10:25 pm
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  Yes, Tenzin, and sadly, too much listening to the heart is what gets us into these messes. I think we need a lot more mind– a lot more critical perspective.
143

Troy on September 5, 2017 at 9:48 am
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I just think we surrender too much of our own good sense to these lamas who in many respects don’t know any more than we do. When I say listen you your heart I mean listen to your inner voice and conscience. I really believe we all have the capacity to know intuititively what’s best for us and our spiritual growth. And I disagree with the view that some people have that Westerners are stupid spiritual Neanderthals and the Tibetans with their sacred “lineages” have the keys to enlightenment. Half the Dalai lamas were assassinated because they were corrupt! When you strip back all the main spiritual and religious traditions they all share the same universal principles.
144

Friend on October 19, 2017 at 8:49 am
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OTR goes on with the breaking of samayas responsible for SL cancer….
Incredibel!

A PERSONAL MESSAGE FROM ORGYEN TOBGYAL RINPOCHE

Presently I am in Asia with Sogyal Rinpoche, to support him. The situation with his health is very serious. He has been diagnosed with cancer and had to have an operation to remove the tumours. Now his doctors are advising a course of chemotherapy as a follow up.

What I want to say to all Rigpa students is this—please do not break any more of your samayas. If a student breaks his/her samaya, it has a very harmful effect on the master’s life. I urge all of you therefore to practice the Narak Kong Shak and Heart of Vajrasattva confession prayers as much as possible. I am very concerned for Sogyal Rinpoche’s health and future. I hope you will all listen to what I say.

Orgyen Tobgyal
- 145
  
  tenpel on October 19, 2017 at 9:51 am
  Reply
  
  Rigpa learned now from Frank Ostaseski that they are in a grieving process. Their communication seems to be now much about their very own feelings or inner processes announcing to the outside world how open and honest they are and what a process of healing they allegedly undergo … yesterday someone from Rigpa Berlin announced these stances at the end of a public talk and discussion about abuse in Buddhist communities which covered also Rigpa / Sogyal.
  
  I am rather alerted about these developments / most seem to fall pray to these tactics of sidestepping. The reasons of my doubts or alertness are: 1) the Rigpa policy is to denounce the letter of the 8 as „mere allegations“, 2) they train people in „deep listening“ but have never deeply listened to the women and men been harmed and manipulated, 3) healing would include to give space and voice to those been harmed and not occupying space and the mind of others with the own feelings, distracting from the pain and sufferings of those been harmed.
  
  IMO self-deception does not only continue, it goes new creative ways. Very sad!!!
146

tenpel on October 21, 2017 at 11:51 am
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There is a newer comment and teaching by OTR (PDF) which should be examined and questioned. In it OTR justifies violence by Vajra masters in general and especially of Sogyal Lakar – without examining or even doubting if Sogyal Lakar has the proclaimed qualities of the “Inconceivable wisdom of the great masters”, “pure samaya” or “great primordial wisdom”. Recently OTR was of the opinion, he can’t judge the qualities of Sogyal Lakar, now Sogyal Lakar seems to possess Mahasiddha qualities.

Sebastien: “About beating. Is it appropriate or not?”
OTR: “There is no Tibetan, European or Indian Vajrayana. Vajrayana is Vajrayana. Inconceivable trust and wisdom of the great masters. When a lama has mastered a great primordial wisdom, everything he does is for the benefit of sentient beings. Such great beings, whether it coresponds to Western ideas or not, if they kill somenone, no problem.
The back scratcher? I don’t find anything extraordinary. There are countless stories of students who gained realization for being beaten, cf. the benefit of being cut with knives.

Some masters fired, used their rifles to teach. JKCL has beaten a lot of people. He did that to remove obstacles, to bring blessings. They had immense devotion and pure samaya. Penor R walked into a room and beat all the people who had come to receive empowerment. Blood flooded from their heads. After taking 6 steps, there was no blood left.

Ane Damcho: Why didn’t she leave immediately? Why did she stay for 15 years? Why didn’t she go to the police immediately? Why did he strike her on that day? Ask SR.

Beating hard increases wisdom. It seems you don’t have that tradition in Europe. If a great mahasiddha came to Europe, nobody would have devotion for him and people would say he is mad. You need a master who talks gently and makes you feel special. SR hugs you. I don’t.

OTR also proclaims wrong things. He wrongly proclaims that that there is no instruction or tradition to abandon one’s vajra master – but there are (also in the Nyingma traditione) see here (PDF) as an intro into scriptural sources.

Then OTR distances himself from the Dalai Lama. OTR does this by claiming a doctrinal difference between Gelug and Nyingma telling that the 50 stanzas on Guru devotion (attributed – but controversial among academics – to the author Ashvaghosa) – which among others the Dalai Lama quotes to make clear that disagreeing and not obeying your guru can be justified and a very correct dharma practice – these 50 stanzas are Sutra and not Tantra. But in fact, each verse of this text is based on tantric scriptures. It’s a tantric text and not a Sutra text. Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey: “Ashvagosha’s Fifty Verses is the most comprehensive summary of devoting yourself to your guru by means of action. Its scriptural sources are a wide range of tantric texts, including the Guhyasamaja, Kalachakra, Chakrasamvara, Vajradakini, and Vajrahridayalamkara tantras. The specific tantric sources for each verse are given in Lama Tsongkhapa’s Fulfillment of All Hopes, his commentary on this text.”

Another issue is that OTR mentions the 14 Vajrayana root vows and breaking them without telling what for instance breaking the first vow really means. Actual to break the first root vow to the tantra master is extremely hard as Alex Berzin points out here: https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/lam-rim/student-teacher-relationship/unhealthy-relationships-with-spiritual-teachers/fear-in-a-student-teacher-relationship
- 147
  
  jigje on October 21, 2017 at 7:07 pm
  Reply
  
  Really alarming to see the extent to which some SL apologists are will to go to justify his abuse. Aside from that, to even suggest that this man (SL) is a Mahasiddha is far beyond the pale. Outrageous stuff! No doubt many still clinging to SL as their root lama and Rigpa welcome this sort of rubbish. Sadly, it makes clarity of mind and/or escape less likely. OTR is contributing to their continued imprisonment within the Rigpa cult.
148

Friend on October 21, 2017 at 3:05 pm
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OTR seems meaby a bit afraid that the Rigpa “cash machine” he visited so many times is going to be less productive…
Dharma sexual predators like SL (now digraced in HHDL speech as everybody knows in the buddhist world) should be abandonned, because they act against the Buddha law of compassion and are not Mahasiddhas at all, what a bad joke to think that!
A Mahasiddha would kick OTR and SL bottom , that’s possible.
If you read the last Biography in English about DK Choky Lodreu,(Shambala ed.) OTR account provides somme interesting “details” about DKCL ordering monk’s flogging with hundreds lashes.., DKCL eating dried muccus on the handkerchief of a past revered Lama and also eating and sharing whith his close disciples dried human flesh of a past saint kundung, as he said he did in his former incarnation as DK Wangpo…All this in the name of devotion.
You have also interesting details on his relations with Dolgyal.

His present incarnation is writting ing and acting in some strange ways as you mention it.
I’m sad for him and his followers.

Sadomasochistics relationships between guru and student are not a tantric path at all…but the opposite.
We understand better how lamas like OTR or SL try to justify some acts of violence against disciples by saying they give blessings that way through their supposed enleighted compasion, etc…
The traditional education of young Tulkus in Tibet was hard and often with harsh physical punishments. Meaby OTR suffered from that…For us it’s just impossible to follow these types of conducts as spiritual tantric path.
If Penor R. had tried to beat me, he would have certainly regret it instantaneously!
Very poor argumentation from OTR, very poor indded.
We still make a difference between sheet and chocolate, I mean at least a few of us, even and especially knowing they share the same essencelessness.
149

Secte on October 21, 2017 at 7:00 pm
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Orgyen Tobgyal’s comments advocate abuse and physical violence. With this transcript, French authorities could be contacted and Rigpa listed as a secte (cult). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_Commission_on_Cults_in_France

It is surprising no one has contacted the commission on cults. Perhaps some will. If I were Rigpa I would be terribly terribly worried, no doubt.
- 150
  
  Joanne on October 24, 2017 at 7:17 am
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  Not just abuse, but he condoned also murder.
  - 151
    
    Friend on October 25, 2017 at 8:15 am
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    Killing by liberating someone’s mind whith Phowa by enlightend beings like the Buddha on the boat to avoid worst actions is very exceptionnal and in an other historical context, not to transpose in SL disgraced context.
    In the case of SL it was for decades an habit of scandalous sexual, moral and financial abuse with sheer greed as the 8 signatories letter shows.
    OTR should ask a” hard beating ” to increase his wisdom…as he sadly claims.
152

French observer on October 23, 2017 at 7:11 am
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I can’t believe that Khamtrul Rinpoche is planning to teach the 22nd of November at the same center Rigpa Levallois-Paris.

There is even a video from Tsoknyi Rinpoche in preparation of the events in Rigpa.
“Tsoknyi Rinpoche speaks about Khamtrul Rinpoche
Tsoknyi Rinpoche speaks about the outstanding qualities of the 9th Khamtrul Rinpoche, Shedrup Nyima, who will give teachings at our Rigpa centres again this year, as well as the tokdens who will be accompanying him”.

Tenzin, what do you think about a public letter or a petition informing Khamtrul Rinpoche and Tsoknyi Rinpoche about the situation in Rigpa France: especially the latest teachings from OTR in the centre and that Rigpa France & Lerab Ling are not recognised anymore as Buddhist organisations in France.
We should request them that Khamtrul Rinpoche visits this center only at the condition that he answers to the following questions for the benefit of Rigpa students: role of ethics in the Vajrayana and whether a Vajra Master can beat his students, especially knowing that it is illegal in our countries.
- 153
  
  tenpel on October 23, 2017 at 7:21 am
  Reply
  
  I think they should know.
  It might be more effective to report OTR and the Paris Rigpa center to French police or the French cult authority for OTR’s call and Rigpa’s hosting of the promotion of physical violence.
  - 154
    
    French observer on October 23, 2017 at 7:59 am
    Reply
    
    Tenpel, as it was a private meeting I am not sure this type of speech is illegal in France.
    
    Are you sure that Khamtrul Rinpoche and Tsoknyi Rinpoche know what has been said last week in Rigpa France? In fact, the point is more whether their students know that they are currently supporting Rigpa France and they understand the arguments against such an implicit support.
    - 155
      
      tenpel on October 23, 2017 at 2:38 pm
      Reply
      
      Maybe you are right.
      
      I don’t have much hope that you can reach Tibetan Rinpoches with writing a public letter or a petition.
      However, its all speculative from my side.
      
      In general I have more confidence in our legal system than Tibetan Rinpoches taking abuse and violence against students seriously (except HHDL and YMR).
    - 156
      
      French observer on October 23, 2017 at 7:34 pm
      Reply
      
      I think a petition could have much effect because it is something new and I guess that the Rinpoches underestimate the level of indignation from the students as they practically have no opportunity to receive some feedback. Plus as soon as it is public, their reputation become at stackes.
      Of course, I can’t do that alone but for sure I will send them some private letters.
      
      About the legal system, those minors issues don’t interest the french police. They have already muslim fundamentalists to take care of…
      - 157
        
        tenpel on October 23, 2017 at 8:06 pm
        Reply
        
        Ok, then maybe go ahead with a petition…
      - 158
        
        French observer on October 26, 2017 at 10:12 am
        Reply
        
        If some readers have some suggestions on how to best process this situation about lamas visiting Rigpa, please send a private mail to Vigilant.Ethics.Group@gmail.com
  - 159
    
    Joanne on October 24, 2017 at 7:15 am
    Reply
    
    Tsoknyi Rinpoche was at the Lerab Ling teaching where it was said that the writers of the letter were possessed by demons and had committed the crime of dividing the sangha. I think we have to assume teachers know what’s going on.
- 160
  
  Joanne on October 26, 2017 at 9:45 am
  Reply
  
  I think teachers generally don’t refuse invitations to teach though, isn’t that right? Isn’t it the general expectation that they will teach if asked?
  - 161
    
    tenpel on October 26, 2017 at 1:09 pm
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    Yes; I think they simply think, it’s dharma, it will help them or why should they be punished for the ethical failings of a single person…
  - 162
    
    Brian on October 26, 2017 at 5:44 pm
    Reply
    
    Joanne: Some teachers decline to teach indiscriminately and are very concerned about damsig/samaya–not in the same way the concept is perhaps appropriated in these discussions. In the past (maybe 50 years back) some rare few have even said words to the effect, ‘don’t teach Westerners– its a waste of time.’ They had their reasons. Sometimes I think they were right.
    HHDL gets so many invitations, it is not possible to accept them all.
  - 163
    
    Buddy on October 27, 2017 at 9:35 pm
    Reply
    
    I wish you were right Joanne, but this isn’t the case
164

Tashi Tsering on October 24, 2017 at 8:56 pm
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They know what is going on
165

Friend on October 25, 2017 at 8:01 am
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Rigpa , Tsokny R. , Khamtrul R. should think about OTR deep understanding of Dzogchen and Vajrayana when he says : “Beating hard increases wisdom”…
Bad times for all SL accomplices to come!
Their attempt to denigrate the writters of the letter shows how rotten is the system they want to hold in place.
Acting the way they do will put a deep shadow on their lineage and wisdom reputation. It’s like if they did not trust in the law of causality.
SL now disgraced put some light on a clanic and mafia looking like financial system of sectarian mind colonisation at the opposite of authentic liberation in the true nature of mind.
If they support SL behviour they are naturally disgraced too.
It’s strange that DK Choky Lodreu had a dream of SL becoming crazy and creating a big disaster in the Sangha ( Biography Ed.Shambala).
Mario Pistono could witte a less hagiographic epilog to his interesting book on Tertön Sogyal in a new edition.
- 166
  
  tenpel on October 27, 2017 at 6:44 am
  Reply
  
  Hi Friend,
  can you give the exact reference (page or quote) “of DK Choky Lodreu had a dream of SL becoming crazy and creating a big disaster in the Sangha ( Biography Ed.Shambala)”?
  
  Is it in this book?
  - 167
    
    Friend on October 27, 2017 at 8:27 am
    Reply
    
    Yes, Tenpel, it’s in this very thick and very interesting book. I’ll try to find the quote and page, but i regret not to have let a mark to find it quickly. This deam happened to be a prediction!
    I hope you’ll read this book, it’s a real trip in old Tibet…
- 168
  
  matilda7 on October 27, 2017 at 10:14 am
  Reply
  
  FYI, Sandra Pawula wrote about this aspect of the JCL bio a little while ago, i don’t think she gives a page ref though: http://howdidithappen.org/jamyang-khyentse-chokyi-lodro-dream-sogyal-lakar/
  - 169
    
    tenpel on October 27, 2017 at 3:41 pm
    Reply
    
    Thank you. It’s sufficient for me to read Sandra’s post.
    - 170
      
      Friend on October 27, 2017 at 4:35 pm
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      Tenpel, it’s page 496!
      One more “hard beating” by the mad prince of Derge even in a dream DKCL did a second time with the same Lakar…no doubt, it was prophetic and Jigme Puntsok, the second tulku of TS must be quite sad of all that mess and to see his friend disgraced for good reasons.
      The TS biography by Mario Pistono is also very interesting.
171

jigje on October 27, 2017 at 6:41 pm
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Can anyone offer up anything definitive regarding this ongoing belief, held universally by SL’s students (and others?), that SL is a reincarnation of Tertön Sogyal? One close friend of mine, who is the translator for one of my teachers, and who himself (my teacher) was a very close disciple of Jigme Phuntsok’s, has emphatically stated that there was only one reincarnation of TS and that it was Jigme Phuntsok. Moreover, she claims that no lama that she knows of inside Tibet believes that SL is a reincarnation of TS. I have yet to put this to my teacher directly as he was unavailable at the time, but I intend to.
- 172
  
  Buddy on October 27, 2017 at 9:32 pm
  Reply
  
  Here you go Jigje!
  
  The direct words of HH Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok himself and translated by Ringu Tulku Rinpoche:
  http://www.pictame.com/media/1588671145208299018_3036451821
  
  Here you can read in the second paragraph, Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche, stating JKCL recognised SR as TS. I’d say NKR did his homework on this before putting it in that great work he did on the Dzogchen lineage:
  http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/nyoshul-khen-rinpoche/biography-sogyal-rinpoche
  
  Also find a long life prayer to SR by Trulshik Rinpoche, where he states the same
  http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/trulshik-rinpoche/llp-sr-chime-kunnye
  
  See 2nd & 3rd paragraph:
  http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/trulshik-rinpoche/llp-sr-attainment-immortality
  
  Written and spoken by people who don’t lie and have no reason to
  
  Hope this helps
  Buddy
  - 173
    
    tenpel on October 27, 2017 at 9:45 pm
    Reply
    
    Great, thank you. Very helpful, Buddy!
    
    – As a side remark: Long Life Prayers are not meant literally but are written to inspire faith. You find a long life prayer also by Trijang Rinpoche for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso http://tharpa.com/uk/prayers-for-the-long-life-of-venerable-geshe-kelsang-gyatso-rinpoche-booklet.html etc etc.
    
    One of our own teachers in Italy refused to allow to recite his long life prayer because “its all not true” what the prayer claims 😉
    - 174
      
      Buddy on October 28, 2017 at 6:57 pm
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      Hi Tenpel,
      I’m sorry I can’t agree with you there! Maybe they do that in different lineages, but with the nyingma, in long life prayers written for SR and other masters, it’s often like a detailing of who they were in their previous life, who there masters are, their activities etc, especially if it’s a long prayer. A four liner may touch upon one or two of those points.
      
      And these are the vajra words of the master’s writing these prayers who aren’t making up nice lines because they rhyme etc.
      
      As you say, part of it is to maybe inspire faith, but Trulshik Rinpoche for instance, isn’t making this up so he can inspire students in something that is not true.
      If he didn’t agree with it, well then at the very least he would have written something else rather than saying SR is TS.
      
      I also heard TR, when he gave a tendrel nyesel empowerment in LL, saying SR is TS.
      
      So, I definitely don’t agree with you there.
      Buddy
      - 175
        
        tenpel on October 28, 2017 at 7:06 pm
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        Not sure about your arguments. I know that there are eulogist praises in long life prayers by extremely high masters that don’t match reality about the subject they address. I wouldn’t call it lies but means to inspire faith. I think westerners who take this liberally are a bit foolish.
        
        In my Buddhist cults these prayers were of course taken literally to repress any criticism.
        
        But see for yourself why you take them literally. I can’t take them literally based on my own experiences and what I know so far about such prayers. Maybe you check this with different sources.
        
        Kind regards,
        T
  - 176
    
    jigje on October 27, 2017 at 10:22 pm
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    Thank you, Buddy. Was that first link you listed (pictame.com) a video? All I got was a blurred image? Can you maybe repost it?
    
    As tenpel says, long life prayers primarily serve the function of inspiring faith. They are not necessarily accepted literally.
    
    The issue that I have (assuming that SL IS a reincarnation of TS) is that we can easily see the qualities one would expect from a reincarnation of TS in the person of Jigme Phuntsok, whereas when it comes to SL, many of those qualities are missing? So, how is that possible? How does one make sense of this blatant discrepancy?
    
    Of course, we see how Rigpa students make sense of it: all of his behavior (including the abuse, etc.) as an “enlightened being” is a display of upaya or skillful means (crazy wisdom).
    
    But I would love an explanation from someone with a deep understanding of this process, i.e., HHDL, etc. Otherwise, those of us who do not identify as Rigpa students are simply left scratching our heads.
    - 177
      
      tenpel on October 28, 2017 at 7:11 am
      Reply
      
      In general there are different types of tulkus. There are also functional Tulku’s who are not the incarnation of a previous master but chosen beings with merits and a potential to fulfil the role of a former master. Their success and the fulfilment of their role depends much on their education.
      - 178
        
        jigje on October 28, 2017 at 7:26 pm
        Reply
        
        Thank you, tenpel, for introducing this concept of “functional Tulku.” I was not aware of it previously. What an interesting concept. Seems this could apply, perhaps, to SL, except for the fact that he has, from the beginning, been promoted as one of the actual reincarnations of TS.
        
        Even if we could say that SL was, in fact, a functional Tulku of TS, we would have to acknowledge his debased behavior over decades. Clearly he has genuinely benefitted some (I’m thinking, primarily, of his book on death and dying), but, sadly, his abusive behavior has likely neutralized and depleted the merit from such good endeavors.
        
        179
        
        tenpel on October 28, 2017 at 8:05 pm
        Reply
        
        Not sure if the Tibetans call it “functional tulkus”, but the meaning is that he serves to fulfil the function of a tulku who is not the incarnation of the former teacher.
        
        Here is one source for that – from Prof Martin Brauen, Dalai Lamas: A Visual History:
        
        Brauen:
        To begin, I asked the Dalai Lama the question about the origins of the reincarna¬tion system. As tradition requires, the Dalai Lama referred to old Buddhist legends that hold the answer:
        
        Dalai Lama:
        The basis of the…system is the theory of rebirth. This is not something unique to Buddhism but it is also there in some ancient Indian thought, Indian tradition. In India, I think, it is there even among the Hindus, but at least among the early Indian Buddhists like Dharmaklrti… [and] Vasubandhu. When [Vasubandhu] recited a text, which contained many hundred thousand verses, a pigeon was always hearing these recitations. Later this pigeon was born as Lodo Tenpa who became a great student of Vasubandhu and later wrote a commentary about the Abhidharma. So the reincarnation theory is well established in the Indian and Buddhist tradition. In India there is not only the concept of reincarnation but also a systematic process of recognizing reincarnations.
        
        Brauen:
        He shares the widely held opinion regarding the first use of the system of reincarnation in Tibet, which holds that the Karma School originally instituted it, although this view can no longer be considered completely correct in light of modern “scientific” investigation:
        
        Dalai Lama:
        At the time of his death, Karmapa Düsum Khyenpa clearly men¬tioned his rebirth would appear in such-and-such area in such and such family. So obviously the lama gave some clear instructions: “My reincarnation will appear.” That mean[t] the concerned students or followers must take care.
        So then many lamas and their followers founded particular monasteries…In the case of India a scholar cho[se] a particular monastery and he then remain[ed] there, he bec[ame] the master of this particular monastery, but the monastery d[id] not become his personal belonging.
        In Tibet the case was quite different: one great lama started with the construction of a monastery, and later this monastery became the belonging of that particular lama.
        
        When the authentic reincarnation comes, then that monastery takes care [of the him]. So in this way the lamas’ kind of estate and monastery came into existence. Then later, whether authentic or not, when there was somebody they wanted to recognize as a young lama he might become or be chosen as the reincarnation. That is also possible. In the beginning this process of selection was more genuine. One example: the 1st Dalai Lama Gendün Drup did not implicitly say that his reincarnation would come, but he indicated it, by saying that in case there [sh]ould be a rebirth of him, then one should make sure that one would not disgrace him.
        
        Then came the 2nd Dalai Lama. He was from a young age really extraordinary, and there were very convincing indications that he was the true incarnation of the previous Dalai Lama, but their nature was completely different…so this [wa]s the start of the Dalai Lama-lineage. Then came the 3rd Dalai Lama. There was already the institution of the Drepung monastery. Drepung monastery was very big. At that time already the institution of the Karma [School] was there and maybe also that one of the female reincarnation Dorje Phakmo. I heard that her institution started at about the same time as that of the Karma [School], Düsum Khyenpa or the second Karmapa.
        
        Brauen:
        The concept of a line of incarnation for the Dalai Lamas presumes the continuity between two living beings: the precdecessor and his reincarnation. Since this concept often leads to misunderstandings in the west, I asked the Dalai Lama if he could address it and he replied as follows:
        
        Dalai Lama:
        Of course Buddhism accepts the existence of the continuity of a being. The Buddhist theory of “selflessness” means that there is no independent self apart from the body, because “self” or the person is designated [by] the combination of body and mind. There is a self, but there is no independent absolute self. So this is the meaning of selflessness in the context of the theory of “no-self.” With respect to continuation, not only does Buddhism accept the continuity of the being, but also upholds the notion of a “beginningless” self, that is, a self with no beginning and no end until buddhahood is achieved. Any self is reborn from “beginningless[ness]” and will be reborn endlessly.
        
        There are different kinds of reincarnations. An eminent Buddha [or] bodhisattva can manifest several times simultaneously, lower bodhisattvas reincarnate only in one person, this means once at a time. But anyone, irrespective [of whether they are] a bodhisattva or an ordinary person, is reborn from “beginningless[ness]” and will be born endlessly. Continuity is always there and will always be there, due to karma. Now, at one stage, if you develop a certain spiritual realization, then the birth through karma will cease. Then with willpower you can choose your rebirth. This type of rebirth we call reincarnation.
        
        Today tulkuunfortunately[has] become almost like the designation of a certain status, a social status. So, among these tulkus, some may have that sort of quality, the possibility to choose their rebirth, some not.
        
        Anyway, whether a person has the designation “tulku” or not, those individuals who [have] already developed certain inner qualities, seek their rebirth according to their wish. So this one calls “reincarnation.” In this case too, it is the same being, it is the continuation of the same being. I think the basis of the misunderstanding about continuity is [that] there is continuation, yet momentarily it changes. A continuity, which momentarily is not changing, that kind of continuity is not there. The misun¬derstanding consists in the fact that some mix up conventional conditioned continuity with independent continuity.
        
        One example: This paper lying here was produced some months ago. Since from the start of the paper up to now there is continuity/continuation. It is continuously there, but it is momentarily changing.
        
        Let’s look again at this table. On the table there is absence of say[a] flower. There is no flower on the table. So the absence of [the] flower is existing here. Yesterday there was also an absence of [a] flower. Today there is an absence of flowers. So that continuity is not changing.
        One can see two kinds of continuity: one is as we were explaining with the reincarnation, that there is a conditioned conventional continuity. So this kind of impermanent conditioned continuity is there. But on another level of existence there is something for which you may use the word continuity or not, for example the absence of flower. Because there is no flower here, the mere absence or negation of [the] flower is there today, will be there tomorrow, will forever be there. This is not changing.
        
        The continuity of non-existence is not changing. But the other continuity is momentarily changing. So from the beginning-less time continuation is there, but it is momentarily changing. To come back to the reincarnation: As a being who changes his clothes is still the same person, equally it is the same being even if it changes the body.
        
        Until now we have seen one type of reincarnation, those on a high level who are able to change the body according to their own wish. There is also an other type of reincarnation system, which is described in the stories of the past lamas: When a lama, a spiritual master, passes away, in order to carry on his work, one of his disciples may choose someone as the “reincarnation” of the master to carry on the teacher’s work. In this case this is also reincarnation, but in the form of a separate individual. In the case of the Dalai Lamas from the 1st to the 7th, most probably these beings shared a single lineage starting from one individual. The 2nd Dalai Lama clearly mentioned that due to his karma he would come back five times, so that means up to the 7th Dalai Lama. [..]
        
        The information that tulkus are not necessarily the real incarnation of the late lama but just step in to continue the late lama’s work is basically from one of our teachers here in Italy. He also said that lamas in charge choose in such cases a person who has a lot of merit and qualities and about whom they think he is capable to take on the tasks of the late lama. One of the stories he told goes like this: The Tibetan students of a late lama asked for the incarnation of their teacher. The lamas in charge said after careful investigation, telling a name and where he lives, “this person is your teacher”. The students knowing that they suggested a person who is not the real incarnation of their teacher insisted different times to get their late lama’s true incarnation. Finally, the lama in charge said: OK. Do the following: built a big throne, make the traditional music to welcome your lama and then your lama will show and come. They did. Then a mule appeared and went to the throne. The lama said: this is your teacher.
        
        180
        
        tenpel on October 28, 2017 at 8:19 pm
        Reply
        
        Actual whatever type of tulku he is, I don’t mind really.
        
        That SL has terribly harmed others (women and men) and that he can’t even admit this obvious fact (nor apologise for the harm he has done to the faithful) tells me enough…
        
        BTW; there is a book about crazy wisdom or crazy wisdom lamas. It states on page 237:
        
        The process that has led to this application of die idea of “holy madness“ is as follows: from at least the tenth century to the present there has been a small subset of religious practitioners in Tibet who through their eccentric behavior, writings, and self-roclamations, have come to be called “madmen” within their own culture. Some of these figures emulated the famous eccentric siddhas of India who came before them.
        
        Modern-day scholars have so fixated upon their “madness“ that “holy madness” has become a commonly referred to category in our work. It has become so ubiquitous that scholars now apply the idea of holy madness back onto other Indian and Tibetan ascetics who traditionally were not referred to in that way. The idea of holy madness has quite literally taken on a life of its own, among scholars and popular commentators alike.
        
        Found at http://www.okcinfo.news/2017/a-crucial-quote-from-the-holy-madmen-of-tibetthe-process
    - 181
      
      Buddy on October 28, 2017 at 7:00 pm
      Reply
      
      Hi,
      It does work, just let it come into the centre of the screen without moving the mouse over it and it should work, if not, maybe go into this guy’s account and click that item and do the same as above.
      Buddy
    - 182
      
      Buddy on October 28, 2017 at 10:18 pm
      Reply
      
      I just checked that link. I’m using a mac, I put my arrow onto the image and just left it there, and it played.
183

matilda7 on October 27, 2017 at 9:35 pm
Reply

I’m very glad you’ve asked this as it’s much on my mind too, due to the seeming absence of written evidence. When I’ve time in the next few days I’ll put up the available online evidence for and against that I’ve come across.

However, I don’t have the new JKCL bio , so can someone confirm that it doesn’t state any recognition by him of SL? Am aware OTR has changed his tune, but only in his most recent public utterance in Paris. This in itself is curious.
- 184
  
  matilda7 on October 27, 2017 at 10:11 pm
  Reply
  
  I wrote the above comment before Buddy’s was posted. There’s still some questions, arguably.
- 185
  
  jigje on October 27, 2017 at 10:23 pm
  Reply
  
  Thank you, matilda7, that would be helpful, for sure. Did not know about this change of tune by OTR. Do you have a link to that? Thank you!
- 186
  
  Friend on October 28, 2017 at 8:09 am
  Reply
  
  In the DKCL biography , only the term of Tulku Sogyal is used 2 times and one time Lakar Sogyal (in the prophetic dream).
  No enthronement ceremony or official recognition as for many young tulkus in this book.
  DKCL had certainly good hopes in SL and was kind with him as he was his young wife nephew and famous tibetan family member. What a disaster among other scandals!!!
187

matilda7 on October 28, 2017 at 8:06 am
Reply

Hi jigje, yeah now i’ve got a little more time i’ll add to this, but will do a comprehensive post when i’ve got actual leisure at the end of this week, outlining all the claims/statements/evasions i’m aware of, being chiefly from online sources . In the meantime you may want to enquire on the Nyingma forum on Dharma Wheel. There’s a couple of learned chaps who may also have knowledge (though no doubt others will also add their two bobs worth).

As stated above, i haven’t yet had a chance to read the JKCL bio, but as no-one has mentioned otherwise, it seems in that text OTR does not mention any recognition by JKCL of Sogyal Lakar as the reincarnation of Terton Sogyal.

In his much-reported ‘letter to Sangye Ngawang’ OTR also makes no such claim, simply remarking on the intimacy he observed between SL & JKCL: all-otr.org

However in his very recent talk at Rigpa Paris, it has been reported that he stated that JKCL did recognise SL as the reincarnation of Terton Sogyal. The teaching may have been reproduced elsewhere, (Tenpel do you know?) but you can find it at the facebook Open Buddhism page. You may have to scroll down about a week’s worth of posts: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1459918927422287/

I’m assuming you are aware of the ‘how did it happen’ blog run by old/former? Rigpa students. In one of the recent posts by Sandra Pawula she emphatically states that Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche informed Rigpa that JKCL recognised Sogyal as the reincarnation of Terton Sogyal. This may be in comments, you’ll need to check. Nyoshul Khen taught at Rigpa quite a lot, didn’t he?

In one of the earlier ‘What Now’ blog threads an ex-Rigpa student was also emphatic that another esteemed Khenpo had stated the same thing whilst teaching at Rigpa. I’ve forgotten this Khenpo’s name but i know he’s deceased. Will search for the relevant post during the week. I know it was another Khenpo who taught regularly at Lerabling.

Back in the late seventies/early eighties, when the subject of Sogyal came up, Situ Rinpoche told me he wasn’t at all sure that Sogyal was actually the incarnation of the great Terton Sogyal. He expressed doubt.

Hope all of this provides food for thought!
- 188
  
  Buddy on October 30, 2017 at 8:15 pm
  Reply
  
  Would this be the master? There was also a master called Khenpo Petse at LL, but I never made a connection to him or heard anything he said.
  
  1998 Lerab Ling
  Sherab Özer Rinpoche—the incarnation of Orgyen Rigdzin Sempa Dorje, the main Dharma heir of the great master Nyala Pema Dündul—lived in the labrang at Kalzang Monastery, the seat of Nyala Pema Dündul, and later, of Tertön Sogyal Lerab Lingpa. In 1998, Sherab Özer Rinpoche stayed in Lerab Ling for several months giving teachings and empowerments. On August 12th 1998, Sherab Özer Rinpoche performed a simple, symbolic ceremony in which he offered the throne of Kalzang Monastery to Sogyal Rinpoche as the heir to Tertön Sogyal.
  http://www.rigpa.org/rigpa-history-in-pictures/
  - 189
    
    matilda7 on October 31, 2017 at 12:08 am
    Reply
    
    I believe it may have been Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok. That name rings a bell and you’ve already linked to him on this matter.
190

concerned on October 28, 2017 at 9:18 am
Reply

I need to pipe in here. I have personally questioned SL’s authenticity for a very long time. Rigpa completely ignored my requests to produce a letter of recognition that SL’s mother indicated they had in JKCL’s handwriting. Certainly someone needs to directly approach his mother with regards to that letter she claims to have received. That family is so ambitious that I question everything.

RE: OTR, with his initial response in his letter to Sangye, he said SL is “said to be” a reincarnate of SL, not at all confirming. He also did not go on and on raving about his incredible qualities and such as he does with other high lamas. Who was the translator in Paris this time? Perhaps the translator got it wrong? If it were recorded then it can be checked with a good translator. If OTR has changed his tune then it is strange indeed. I would like to know what is going on there.
- 191
  
  tenpel on October 28, 2017 at 9:25 am
  Reply
  
  Good points. Thanks you too.
- 192
  
  Buddy on October 28, 2017 at 7:22 pm
  Reply
  
  This is the way OTR and other masters speak, they always say “it is said”.
  When Dilgo Khyentse R and other masters teach or speak, they always say “it is said”. the reason is because of being humble!
  But then because people get stuck on these words and veer off, OTR has to spell it out.
  
  OTR has never changes his tune, he has always spoken the way all his masters have spoken of SR. As I know OTR and have received a lot of teachings from him and been around him in hospitality, I know this is how he speaks.
  
  The translator didn’t get it wrong! He’s an amazing translator who translates one line at a time, on this occasion, with OTR listening and correcting the odd time if needed.
  - 193
    
    matilda7 on October 29, 2017 at 9:27 am
    Reply
    
    So Buddy, you’re saying that at the recent teaching in Paris, OTR said “it is said” that Sogyal Rinpoche is an incarnation of Terton Sogyal? I can’t find the report of some of his statements now but i don’t think that qualification made it in.
    - 194
      
      Buddy on October 29, 2017 at 11:38 pm
      Reply
      
      No, OTR in his letter to sangye said ‘it is said’. He and the other lineage masters always speak this way. For example they might say such and such a master is said to be highly realised or an incarnation of….
      
      For example Dilgo KR used to speak like this. It was OTR basically repeating what his own masters had told him and not with the air of him saying something new or made up by himself. This is why they all speak like that.
      
      This is the tradition. If and when OTR uses this phrase, it’s not that he has doubt, he is saying ‘it is said’ as in “I’ve heard my masters say this”.
      
      Here is exactly what OTR said about SR, word for word without missing a syllable, from teaching from Paris:
      
      “So what do I know about Sogyal Rinpoche when I say that? Sogyal Rinpoche’s name comes from the fact that he is the incarnation of Tertön Sogyal, he is the Tertön Sogyal Tulku, or the Sogyal Tulku, Sogyal incarnation. And Tertön Sogyal was the representative of Guru Rinpoche. And there has been many incarnations from Nanam Dorje Dudjom, the student of Guru Rinpoche, down to Tertön Sogyal. And the one who said that he was, Sogyal Rinpoche was the incarnation of Tertön Sogyal was not an ordinary person, it was Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö. And Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö was such an extraordinary being, that he knew the, for example, the Calling the Names of Manjushri Tantra by heart without having to learn it, you know, from childhood. And it’s not a lie. There are these, the namthar biography: outer, inner and secret biographies that you can look at. And at that time, he was the root teacher of most of the lamas in Tibet.And Sogyal Rinpoche spent many years with such a great master. And he received the empowerments, the instructions, the pith instructions, reading transmissions, everything”.
      
      He said more, but I wont put that here right now.
      - 195
        
        matilda7 on October 30, 2017 at 7:50 am
        Reply
        
        And that’s why the Paris teaching is different, in terms of OTR’s phrasing. He hasn’t preceded his belief with “it’s said”. He’s stated straight out that DJKL recognised him as an incarnation of Terton Sogyal: “And the one who said that he was, Sogyal Rinpoche was the incarnation of Tertön Sogyal was not an ordinary person, it was Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö. ”
        
        In English lingo we would say that OTR changed his tune, cos he didn’t preface the statement with “it is said” which is a pretty generalised qualification. He has now specifically stated that DJKL recognised him, despite apparently not having mentioned that in the bio (which i haven’t yet read but according to others who have).
        
        Buddy i would appreciate it if you spared us the lecture on how the Great Masters speak. It’s patronising and demeaning to the readers of this blog, many of whom have been steeped in Tibetan Buddhism for a long time. I was fortunate to know Dilgo Khyentse and OTR, possibly before you were born/were in adolescence. Obviously i don’t know how old you are but i’m guessing. 🙂 Thankyou for that.
        
        196
        
        Buddy on October 30, 2017 at 8:08 pm
        Reply
        
        Sorry if I came across like that, I’d no intention of doing so.
        
        The point I’m making, is if OTR is saying SR “is” TS, or if he says “it is said”, the same thread is running through both ways of saying it. He is saying SR is TS. So whichever way it gets phrased, there is no difference.
        
        Therefore he didn’t change his tune. He just said the same thing differently!
        
        Why are we even talking about this again if you know how the masters speak, and I’ve to sound all condescending, young in age, young in the dharma and perhaps english being my 2nd or 3rd language!!!!!!! Now that’s a bit condescending! 😉 I’m half joking!
        
        I wont come back to this again in saying that “it is said” means OTR is passing on what he heard from his masters – that SR is TS, which as we all know is a way of confirming something in a humble way without it looking like one has made it up by oneself.
        
        All the best
        Buddy
      - 197
        
        Friend on October 30, 2017 at 8:55 am
        Reply
        
        What you say shows the disaster on an other scale:
        SL bully behaviour is an insult to his master DKCL,
        and it destroys the faith people could have in DKCL clairvoyance and hability to recognize real tulkus, even after many years of deep tantric practice.
        It shows the weakness of a system easily corruptible by charlatans looking for hard sex and money, when not alcool and drugs under the banner of crazy wisdom . The “golden legend” yangsi will speak of pure awareness about this …not to break their “cash machine”.
        It’s the first time HHDL says a very good friend is disgraced. OTR should think more to it as his friend DKR.
        They put a big shadow on actual tibetan tantric path!
        
        198
        
        Joanne on October 31, 2017 at 5:22 am
        Reply
        
        But I think one thing we’re missing here is that being a tulku does not guarantee being an authentic teacher. I think this is a hard thing for Westerners to swallow. For example, it’s a little confusing when we look at where some of our young tulkus such as Kontrol Rinpoche and Kalu Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe are right now. And what about Shamar Rinpoche? Being born a tulku doesn’t seem to guarantee everything that we want it to guarantee.
        
        HHDL often says there are four possibilities: 1. A qualified lama who is not a tulku; 2. A qualified lama who is a tulku; 3. An unqualified lama who is a tulku; and 4. An unqualified lama who is not a tulku.
        
        I think too much talk about recognition then doesn’t encourage students to be discerning. And gives lamas such as OTR permission to ignore the presence of abuse. I don’t think it matters a whit if SL was recognized or not.
        
        199
        
        Joanne on October 31, 2017 at 5:31 am
        
        I once asked the abbot of HH Karmapa’s monastery in North America how it could be that Shamar Rinpoche could behave as he was behaving (e.g. turning against the current Karmapa, putting up his own Karmapa). Rinpoche’s response to my question? “He is a precious jewel who has fallen in the gutter.”
        
        Is that an answer? How are we to understand the tulku system?
        
        The tulku system is very much on the line right now imo. Buddha never advocated such a system. And while I can see the worth of identifying incarnate beings who are gifted and can benefit particularly from a good education and training etc., there seems to be too many pitfalls to the system, too many risks to students.
        
        200
        
        Friend on October 31, 2017 at 9:37 am
        
        Yes, i do agree with you, for example the Lama i studied with for 40 years had 3 boys, all were recognized as Tulkus by Sakya Dagchen or Sakya trizin, i don’t remember.One of them was recognized as the former abbot of a big Sakya monastery who was killed by the chinese soldiers when trying to escape to India.
        Well, one of them is teatching ski and parachutism , one other i don’t know but not involved with Dharma, and the former abbot did a small attempt to give teatchings and wrote a few little booklets on Dharma years ago with very little success.
        No one of them was inspired enough to meditate and learn enough to be lineage holders and successors of their great father .
        Once i asked this high rank and kind Lama what type of Tulkus were importants, he replied to me that mostly Mahasiddhas Tulkus were important, and also Tulkus who did the right studies and profund Yidam and Yoga retreats with success .
        In fact it concerns very few Tulkus able to give the four authentic empowerments of great Yidams in a Mandala (sand) without errors .
        Nothing to do with “Casino de Paris” expensive shows on non-duality, mind nature, and crazy wisdom…only able to put people in a spiritual and material dependance, and abusive financial, sexual exploitation for the benefit of few well born tantric mahamudra and Dzogchen charlatans.
- 201
  
  EuDawn on October 28, 2017 at 8:09 pm
  Reply
  
  @concerned what exactly have you heard about the letter, and where it is?
  
  I will tell you what I have heard from Sogyal, but I want to know what others have heard first.
  - 202
    
    concerned on November 2, 2017 at 4:44 am
    Reply
    
    EuDawn, you can read about it here (OF COURSE- Rigpa wiki– does anyone ever fact check that site or is it all just propaganda dictated by the Lakars? I would be keenly interested for Tibetologists to fact check)
    
    http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sogyal_Rinpoche
    
    Please share your info EuDawn…
203

concerned on October 28, 2017 at 9:20 am
Reply

That should read: “said to be” a reincarnate of TS. Apologies.
204

concerned on October 29, 2017 at 6:06 am
Reply

Buddy thank you for clarifying about the translation. You can see how it could be confusing without that clarification. “said to be” can come across as differently to us.

I believe I read about the letter in the TBOLAD intro. But as I did away with the book I cannot locate the page. What did you hear from SL EuDawn?
- 205
  
  Friend on October 29, 2017 at 9:38 am
  Reply
  
  If SL was really and officially recognized as TS genuine Tulku , his disgraced fall is even more scandalous for the image of DKCL and all of those who promoted him as a real Dzogchen master.
  If those high rank Lamas invited so many times in Lerab Ling knew what was his conduct and who he was, although there was already a lawsuit in USA in the 90’s , what starnge morality and discipline they manifest as accomplice , it’s difficult to imagine they were that blind…as for example among others Ösel Tenzin-Rich and Kunzang Dorjé-Spatz before.
  As i said it , what the cultural revolution could not destroy, an important part of the tibetan religious elite will self destroy condoning such faults and the vajrayana samayas of their own lineage too. Very sad , causal but necessary end for that tradition infiltrated by desgusting perverse charlatans. Phet!
206

Rose on October 30, 2017 at 5:52 am
Reply

DJKR definitely knew what was gping on in Rigpa. A friend whose family is very close with the Khyentse Rinpoches told me that he was disparaging of SL and would go in and clean it all up periodically… whatever that means.
207

concerned on October 30, 2017 at 7:12 am
Reply

Due to the fact that JKCL is not with us to verify any recognition (and why no enthronement?- so curious), due to the fact that we still don’t have any proof of any such letter, due to the fact that JKCL wrote of a repeated prophetic very disturbing dream that came true about SL (why did OTR NOT talk about this?), due to the fact that SL is a total psychopathic bully who has harmed many students both men and women, due to the fact that HH the Dalai Lama has stated Sogyal did not have the training nor experience required, due to the fact that HH said such organizations and their teacher are ‘spoilt’ and ‘rotten’…. well I am not going to be convinced by a word of what OTR is saying. And moreover, I am sick that there are lamas who are complicit and staunch supporters of this man in light of all the abuses. These are lamas I will not sit before again as I have lost all trust in their ability to guide us with care.
- 208
  
  Friend on October 31, 2017 at 8:01 am
  Reply
  
  The best thing is to fly away from this gang of untestable and untreatable lamas indeed, what is interesting is that they are more or less linked by the same blindness concerning SL awful behaviour : when they don’t approve his conduct they condone it.
  The only Lama to say SL is disgraced is HHDL, we would like to know what HH Sakya Trizin and other can say about their old very good friend.
  HHDL meaby spoke for them all.
  But OTR and DKR and the Khempo Namdrol we know their position now …
  Let’s have fun thinking of the recognition of Alice Zeoli as Jetsunma Akhon Lhamo and Steven Seagal as tulku too by Penor R 😉
  Let’s cry for the victims of SL, Spatz,THomas Rich, and other psychopaths and their accomplices.
  Do not forget OTR infamous statement : ” Hard beating increases wisdom” .
209

Lucy ( or Lucie, Luce ) on November 2, 2017 at 10:57 am
Reply

After many years practicing the Dharma, and also living in Nepal and India with Tibetans, I came to the conclusion that, in general (I don’t speak for every body), we have a deluded representation of the way the Buddha Dharma is transmitted.

There are of course lineages, tulkus, rinpoches and so on… but it is (according to what I experimented) just a small aspect of what happen in reality ; and this small aspect of the transmission is a mixture of pure Dharma and a lot of worldly concerns, interests etc.
I won’t try to go into all details, it’s too wide and inaccessible for a simple Dharma practitioner like me. However I had glimpses of what I think is the true picture (without wanting to patronize anybody).

A Tibetan scholar told me, for example, that several high Dharma practitioners left the institutional Buddhism. They live a humble life, and some of them even stay with outcasts. They run away when Rinpoches try to speak to them !!! Funny.
This is true, I met several of these Bodhisattvas and Mahasiddas in Bodh Gaya. They were wearing ordinary clothes or even rags. Being in contact with them, was like receiving a powerful punch in the stomach, but a kind one, full of wisdom and love. Many of my convictions, about how things should be, vanished. It opened my eyes on the temporary, artificial or even fake Buddhism. After this, out of devotion, I shed a river of tears under the Bodhi Tree.
In Nepal, I also met several of them, as well as in other parts of India. Each time, they made me loose my grasping on the personal self. They encouraged me to accumulate good karma, and purify negative one, through the situations they put me in.

An other example: a newspaper reported that a humble old couple left this world in rainbow bodies, nearby Darjeeling (nobody knew they were Dharma practitioners). There were other cases in Tibet… always very humble people showing high realization at their death.

Why these high practitioners don’t do anything, straight away, to prevent us from becoming victims of false Grurus, and being traumatized ? I don’t know. Maybe, because we have to much attachment to appearances, and nice things. Maybe because the obstacles in this degenerated times are strong, and that negative forces attempt to hinder the pure Dharma. I event think that it’s possible that the children of OKC was little tulkus prisoners or a Mara.

Therefore, I believe that the questions we have about tulkus are not really important. For sure, there is a tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism, which is just a way to maintain and transmit lineages and substantial fortunes (There is maybe time to time a true tulku). I was the witness of negotiations between families and a Rinpoche who could officially recognize tulkus. Even holding one of the future tulkus ( a baby) in my arms during one negotiation. I lived close to tulkus, who were doing all kind of stupid things : cheating, misusing donations etc.

I won’t say that Buddhist centers, Institutions, official Gurus are of any use, because I benefited a lot from them (and helped them a lot, financially or by my work). I also met genuine Lamas and received wonderful teachings (still now). But in the same time this system brought strong and ugly obstacles, that I had to overcome, or go through. I still have the wounds of trauma and a difficult financial and social life. But I consider that it is better than being deceived by false teachers and wrong teachings.

SL, DKR, OT, are Lamas that I met, with many others Lamas like them. My opinion is that they are swept away by their strong attachment to the image they have about Tibetan Buddhism, how it should be, how it should stay (even if they pretend to be modern, they are afraid to loose their power and supremacy). They spend a lot of efforts to maintain something which is impermanent. As a result they finally forget the truth of the Dharma, and do, or say, foolish things (among good things also, this is why it is tricky).

In conclusion, my wish is to meet true Mahasiddhas in my own European country.
210

Tashi Tsering on January 13, 2018 at 3:57 pm
Reply

Take a look at OT’s face – just look clearly and you will see what kind of person he is.
His face speaks for itself. You will have clear direct knowledge –
- 211
  
  Rose on January 14, 2018 at 1:24 am
  Reply
  
  I see cruelty…
  Anyone else?
  - 212
    
    tenpel on January 19, 2018 at 5:34 pm
    Reply
    
    Here is another call to not criticise the lamas : https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1730065257014129&id=100000320158474
    - 213
      
      Friend on January 19, 2018 at 5:54 pm
      Reply
      
      When you think that his father ( HH Dudjom R.) took Robert Spatz as his representative in France and Belgium, calling him Lama Kunzang Dorje , and many times Sogyal R. as translater…
      Very good choice indeed!
      When you read this complete advice for submission as thralls to every guru’s command, and the fact of beating and even killing as compassionate behaviour : it’s the open gate to all abuses and crimes, at the opposite of our laws and democratic way of life, respectful for beings.
      Very feudal and sad point of view from this son of HH Dudjom .R. who certainly thinks he’s enlightend …and love us 🙂
      - 214
        
        matilda7 on January 20, 2018 at 8:53 am
        Reply
        
        However, his son put a much more promising fb post which has been reproduced on the relevant DharmaWheel thread, New Rigpa letter, it’s about halfway through for memory: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=27585
215

Rose on January 20, 2018 at 2:56 am
Reply

Actually Tenpel,
think I’m over being told how to think, what to think and what to see and what to ignore…
- 216
  
  tenpel on January 20, 2018 at 7:25 pm
  Reply
  
  Hi Rose, what I posted was not meant as a reply to your comment. I just wanted to share this view and wrote it quickly on mobile phone where you can’t easily see and decide where it’s been placed.
  - 217
    
    Rose on January 21, 2018 at 8:34 am
    Reply
    
    Sorry Tenpel,
    my comment wasn’t aimed at you, it was at the latest tulku telling us similar things as OTR and DKR in regards to how we should perceive the guru and his actions etc
    - 218
      
      tenpel on January 21, 2018 at 9:05 am
      Reply
      
      Thank you for the clarification.
219

Diane on March 17, 2018 at 10:19 pm
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
220

matilda7 on March 18, 2018 at 4:12 am
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Dianne, your account is interesting, but i’m not sure at all that this statement is correct: “Therefore, if a being allows themselves to become fully enlightened prior to the time of death or in the first bardo, they cannot incarnate, they can emanate.”

Please provide a source for this claim, be it from a verbal or written teaching. Thankyou.

Also, you’ve mentioned my name above without providing the context. Anything quoted from OTR by me would have come from the web, so people can check themselves, once you quote what i actually wrote. If it’s me your referring to in your first sentence, then it’s not a question of misunderstanding – for memory, i noted that OTR had changed his tune on this matter. It doesn’t mean i accept that SR is an incarnation of Terton Sogyal, because i certainly do not.

Concerning the distinctions between incarnations & emanations, when Lamas describe the process of determining an incarnation – usually beginning with a dream, followed up by testing the contenders – we can be reasonably sure that the tulku chosen was in fact an incarnation. Where accounts of such testing are not provided, then yes, they may just be emanations, as in, embodying the qualities of the previous master.
221

diane on April 1, 2018 at 6:58 am
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
222

diane on April 1, 2018 at 7:01 am
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
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diane on April 1, 2018 at 3:26 pm
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224

Buddy on April 1, 2018 at 11:20 pm
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This may help to throw some light on what Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche thought of Sogyal Rinpoche.
- 225
  
  Friend on April 2, 2018 at 8:17 am
  Reply
  
  Diane, don’t fall in the illusory situation of the one who thinks she knows..and gives lessons therefore. Such a complex subject like the tibetan system of reincarnation/manifestation of one or multiple past Lamas in one or many bodies is quite hard to understand and can bring to cult and gaslighting position very quickly …
  It’s sadly too very dificult to find uncorrupted lineage today as the many actual abuse scandals show it in many schools at the highest levels, by acting or condonning desgusting behaviours with the false nose of “Crazy wisdom” or “pure awareness” , tryng to put under the rug sexual, alcoholic, drugs, violence , money abuses and laundering, power fight etc…
  Sad times for Vajrayana indeed.
  - 226
    
    tenpel on April 2, 2018 at 8:24 am
    Reply
    
    Don’t know if it was mentioned but there are also only designated tulkus. If a rebirth can’t be found – for instance if a Lama took a lower rebirth as a donkey (our teacher in Italy told us such a story and mentioned such cases) – the person(s) in charge take a person of another continuum who has the merits or supposed qualities to continue the work of the lineage of the deceased lama.
    
    The Dalai Lama mentioned in an interview with Martin Brauen also that the Dalai Lamas were not always the continuum of the same person either.
    - 227
      
      Friend on April 2, 2018 at 10:54 am
      Reply
      
      Good sense should prevail in this matter as well as good studies, retreats, and meditative experience, plus realisation if possible, qualifying an authentic teatcher for a genuine transmission in harmony with his lineage…
228

matilda7 on April 2, 2018 at 1:24 am
Reply

Concerning your above statements:”It is interesting that you are demanding I provide you with a source material for my statement that Beings who attain full enlightenment prior to entering the Chonyi Barbdo. Yet you go on to end your comment, with a statement where you provide no source material”.

What i’ve described is standard practice when searching for and subsequently identifying the reincarnations of highly realised Lamas. There are a great many examples as you are no doubt well aware.

I find it unfortunate that you choose to pepper your explanations with personalised, patronising comments – this doesn’t really invite further discussion from me. Study is good, but practice is even better.
229

diane on April 8, 2018 at 12:26 am
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
230

Diane on July 18, 2018 at 4:18 am
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
- 231
  
  tenpel on July 18, 2018 at 7:58 am
  Reply
  
  Oh. I am very sorry.
  In all ways all the best and thank you.
232

jigje on July 19, 2018 at 3:08 am
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Tenpel,

You mentioned above (#226) that in an interview with Martin Brauen the Dalai Lama stated that the previous Dalai Lamas have not always been the continuum of the same person. This is something I’d never heard before! Is there any way you can direct me to this interview, if it’s in English? Or better yet, provide me with an email for Martin Brauen so that I can ask him directly for more info on this? Thank you!
- 233
  
  tenpel on July 19, 2018 at 7:18 am
  Reply
  
  I’ll copy and paste it later the day.
  - 234
    
    Friend on July 19, 2018 at 9:42 am
    Reply
    
    In the case of the Lama i studied with, when i asked him who he was in regard of his lineage, he explained to me that if Virupa was like the sun, he was one of it’s lightrays and the sixth reincarnation of the Mahasiddha’s first emanation in this lineage in Tibet.
    
    It’s difficult to see a realistic sheme of that system mixing emanations and reincarnations, sometimes of one or many saints of the past in one man or woman…
    This Lama insisted on the fact that mostly learned lineage holders tulkus of Mahasiddhas where importants, and that sometimes for historical and economical reasons some “minor” tulkus in monasteries were less credible and reliable, due to the fact that without a Tulku, a monastery had difficulties to work properly with a lack of donnations of devotees missing the Lama.
    Devotion, superstition, vast subject indeed far beyond our cartesian logic..
    
    Pawo Rimpoche was known as an emanation of a great Indian Mahasiddha too, i loved him for his so kind and incredible presence when we met in France and Nepal before his death. His actual Tulku is stuck in Tibet with more or less freedom…
    
    It’s said that at the first Bhumi you can manifest one Tulku, Ten on the second,One hundred on the third and so on.
    
    Nice to read your points of view on that subjet who defys the law of Origin and Evolution of species on our planet. 🙂
    
    Waiting for Tempel’s answer about HHDL 🙂
    - 235
      
      jigje on July 19, 2018 at 6:27 pm
      Reply
      
      Thank you, Tenpel, for taking the time to copy and paste. It is interesting how HH chooses to talk about the previous seven Dalai Lamas. He doesn’t say, definitively, “these beings shared a single lineage starting from one individual;” he says “most probably,” which, to my way of thinking, makes his statement just a little less conclusive or authoritative. But, he may have his own reasons for wishing to express it that way (assuming the translator got it correctly)? What comes to mind is (and this is some years ago now) when asked directly if he (HHDL) was enlightened, his reply was something along the lines of, ” I am at least a bodhisattva on the 1st bhumi.”
      
      As for the rest of his comment, we are left to wonder about the 8th to the 14th. What about them? Another single lineage starting from another individual? Or a case of more than one individual? And if the first seven DL reincarnations were a manifestation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara (he says definitively that the 1st DL was a manifestation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara), then who has been manifesting as the 8th through to the 14th? Most of us likely assume that all of the DLs are manifestations of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara. But maybe the 8th through to the present are “stand-ins” as Avalokiteshvara’s “representative”? The one thing that we can conclude is that whomever is “behind” HHDL’s 8th through to the present reincarnations, he is at least a bodhisattva.
      
      Clearly this is a very complex topic and especially challenging when we try and make sense of HHDL’s reincarnations.
- 236
  
  tenpel on July 19, 2018 at 10:40 am
  Reply
  
  Here the excerpt, the whole is interesting but the direct answer to your question comes in this para, starting with “Until now we have seen one type of reincarnation,…”. Any possible typo is due to OCR scan problems that I missed to correct.
  
  Brauen:
  To begin, I asked the Dalai Lama the question about the origins of the reincarnation system. As tradition requires, the Dalai Lama referred to old Buddhist legends that hold the answer:
  
  Dalai Lama:
  The basis of the … system is the theory of rebirth. This is not something unique to Buddhism but it is also there in some ancient Indian thought, Indian tradition. In India, I think, it is there even among the Hindus, but at least among the early Indian Buddhists like Dharmakirti … [and] Vasubandhu. When [Vasubandhu] recited a text, which contained many hundred thousand verses, a pigeon was always hearing these recitations. Later this pigeon was born as Lodo Tenpa who became a great student of Vasubandhu and later wrote a commentary about the Abhidharma. So the reincarnation theory is well established in the Indian and Buddhist tradition. In India there is not only the concept of reincarnation but also a systematic process of recognizing reincarnations.
  
  Brauen:
  He shares the widely held opinion regarding the first use of the system of reincarnation in Tibet, which holds that the Karma School originally instituted it, although this view can no longer be considered completely correct in light of modern “scientific” investigation.
  
  Dalai Lama:
  At the time of his death, Karmapa Düsum Khyenpa clearly men¬tioned his rebirth would appear in such-and-such area in such and such family. So obviously the lama gave some clear instructions: “My reincarnation will appear.” That mean[t] the concerned students or followers must take care.
  
  So then many lamas and their followers founded particular monasteries … In the case of India a scholar cho[se] a particular monastery and he then remain[ed] there, he bec[ame] the master of this particular monastery, but the monastery d[id] not become his personal belonging.
  
  In Tibet the case was quite different: one great lama started with the construction of a monastery, and later this monastery became the belonging of that particular lama.
  
  When the authentic reincarnation comes, then that monastery takes care [of the him]. So in this way the lamas’ kind of estate and monastery came into existence. Then later, whether authentic or not, when there was somebody they wanted to recognize as a young lama he might become or be chosen as the reincarnation. That is also possible. In the beginning this process of selection was more genuine. One example: the 1st Dalai Lama Gendün Drup did not implicitly say that his reincarnation would come, but he indicated it, by saying that in case there [sh]ould be a rebirth of him, then one should make sure that one would not disgrace him.
  
  Then came the 2nd Dalai Lama. He was from a young age really extraordinary, and there were very convincing indications that he was the true incarnation of the previous Dalai Lama, but their nature was completely different … so this [wa]s the start of the Dalai Lama-lineage. Then came the 3rd Dalai Lama. There was already the institution of the Drepung monastery. Drepung monastery was very big. At that time already the institution of the Karma [School] was there and maybe also that one of the female reincarnation Dorje Phakmo. I heard that her institution started at about the same time as that of the Karma [School], Düsum Khyenpa or the second Karmapa.
  
  Brauen:
  The concept of a line of incarnation for the Dalai Lamas presumes the continuity between two living beings: the precdecessor and his reincarnation. Since this concept often leads to misunderstandings in the west, I asked the Dalai Lama if he could address it and he replied as follows:
  
  Dalai Lama:
  Of course Buddhism accepts the existence of the continuity of a being. The Buddhist theory of “selflessness” means that there is no independent self apart from the body, because “self” or the person is designated [by] the combination of body and mind. There is a self, but there is no independent absolute self. So this is the meaning of selflessness in the context of the theory of “no-self.” With respect to continuation, not only does Buddhism accept the continuity of the being, but also upholds the notion of a “beginningless” self, that is, a self with no beginning and no end until buddhahood is achieved. Any self is reborn from “beginningless[ness]” and will be reborn endlessly.
  
  There are different kinds of reincarnations. An eminent Buddha [or] bodhisattva can manifest several times simultaneously, lower bodhisattvas reincarnate only in one person, this means once at a time. But anyone, irrespective [of whether they are] a bodhisattva or an ordinary person, is reborn from “beginningless[ness]” and will be born endlessly. Continuity is always there and will always be there, due to karma. Now, at one stage, if you develop a certain spiritual realization, then the birth through karma will cease. Then with willpower you can choose your rebirth. This type of rebirth we call reincarnation.
  
  Today tulku unfortunately [has] become almost like the designation of a certain status, a social status. So, among these tulkus, some may have that sort of quality, the possibility to choose their rebirth, some not.
  
  Anyway, whether a person has the designation “tulku” or not, those individuals who [have] already developed certain inner qualities, seek their rebirth according to their wish. So this one calls “reincarnation.” In this case too, it is the same being, it is the continuation of the same being. I think the basis of the misunderstanding about continuity is [that] there is continuation, yet momentarily it changes. A continuity, which momentarily is not changing, that kind of continuity is not there. The misun¬derstanding consists in the fact that some mix up conventional conditioned continuity with independent continuity.
  
  One example: This paper lying here was produced some months ago. Since from the start of the paper up to now there is continuity/continuation. It is continuously there, but it is momentarily changing.
  
  Let’s look again at this table. On the table there is absence of say[a] flower. There is no flower on the table. So the absence of [the] flower is existing here. Yesterday there was also an absence of [a] flower. Today there is an absence of flowers. So that continuity is not changing.
  
  One can see two kinds of continuity: one is as we were explaining with the reincarnation, that there is a conditioned conventional continuity. So this kind of impermanent conditioned continuity is there. But on another level of existence there is something for which you may use the word continuity or not, for example the absence of flower. Because there is no flower here, the mere absence or negation of [the] flower is there today, will be there tomorrow, will forever be there. This is not changing.
  
  The continuity of non-existence is not changing. But the other continuity is momentarily changing. So from the beginning-less time continuation is there, but it is momentarily changing. To come back to the reincarnation: As a being who changes his clothes is still the same person, equally it is the same being even if it changes the body.
  
  Until now we have seen one type of reincarnation, those on a high level who are able to change the body according to their own wish. There is also an other type of reincarnation system, which is described in the stories of the past lamas: When a lama, a spiritual master, passes away, in order to carry on his work, one of his disciples may choose someone as the “reincarnation” of the master to carry on the teacher’s work. In this case this is also reincarnation, but in the form of a separate individual. In the case of the Dalai Lamas from the 1st to the 7th, most probably these beings shared a single lineage starting from one individual. The 2nd Dalai Lama clearly mentioned that due to his karma he would come back five times, so that means up to the 7th Dalai Lama. We also know that the 1st Dalai Lama was a manifestation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara. This is very clear. The 5th Dalai Lama, on the other hand, was (also) considered as a manifestation of the Bodhisattva Manjusri.
  
  At about the same time when the 1st Dalai Lama was alive, one Karmapa, and a senior Drigung Lama were also considered to be manifestations of Avalokitesvara. This means that there can be (simultaneously) several manifestations of one and the same source. And it is also possible that one person is reincarnated in several bodies, in one case I heard in five different bodies, in other words: five reincarnations from one source. So you see, there is a variety of reincarnations: Sometimes several reincarnations, sometimes only one, sometimes the reincarnation is the same person, and in other cases someone as his or her representative.
  
  The world is unlimited, infinite. So a reincarnation is not bound to one place, but is sometimes here, sometimes there. Take for instance Buddha. At certain periods he appeared on this planet, but at other times his reincarnations may be at some other planets, in some other universes, and he may still be there.
  
  In my own case: At the time of my death, when I feel that I am no [longer] useful on this planet, then I will pray that I will be reborn to be of use. I always pray, “as long as space remains and as long as sentient beings’ suffering remains, may I remain to dispel their suffering.” So I pray that I am born somewhere where I will be useful. A bodhisattva is always reborn again; he never makes a break, never disappears. He has to provide good services among the human beings, animals, insects, any living being. This is his bodhisattva vow.
  […]
  
  From the Chapter INTRODUCTION AND INTERVIEW in Martin Brauen. The Dalai Lamas: A Visual History. Chicago: Serindia Publications, 2005. Illustrations, map, timeline. 304 pp. $85.00 (cloth), ISBN 978-1-932476-22-4. Reviewed by Jose Cabezon An article from that book is available online: From Protective Deities to International Stardom: An Analysis of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama’s Stance towards Modernity and Buddhism – Georges B. Dreyfus
  - 237
    
    jigje on July 20, 2018 at 7:58 pm
    Reply
    
    I am sort of answering at least part of my own question above (#235), by finding this exposition by HHDL on what transpired after the 7th DL’s passing. It was the introduction of The Golden Urn system (picking lots from a golden urn) imposed by Manchu officials (and rejected by the Tibetans because it lacked any “spiritual quality.”). As it turns out, there has been only been one occasion when a Dalai Lama (the 11th) was recognized by using this method.
    
    https://www.dalailama.com/messages/retirement-and-reincarnation/reincarnation
    - 238
      
      tenpel on July 20, 2018 at 8:04 pm
      Reply
      
      Thank you for sharing, jigie
239

Friend on July 21, 2018 at 8:51 am
Reply

Thank you Jidje, very interesting to read indeed.

Do you think that this explaination about reincarnation and Buddhist theory of six classes of beings is compatible with the biologic evolution of mankind through ages and Darwin’s “On the origin of species” ?
Our present human body is the causal result of many parameters including climate , genetics, gravity,and tectonic movements, clearly impossible to reproduce anywhere in the universe;

When some Buddhist commentaries say that due to the position of subtil drops in the chanels (Thigle) during the day, we experiment the vision of sunrise and dawn, night and day…what about the people living in Spitzberg with midnight sun for months and night also…?

Thank you for your answer. 🙂
240

Diane on July 28, 2018 at 7:33 pm
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
241

Diane on July 28, 2018 at 8:11 pm
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COMMENT REMOVED – BASED ON REQUEST
- 242
  
  tenpel on July 29, 2018 at 10:30 am
  Reply
  
  Hi Diane, as requested I removed 18 comments by you with the same email address, some posted under “Diane”, some posted under “Karma Pemo”.
  
  In general, this blog asks people to stick to one pseudonym and to avoid posting things and later asking to delete it.
  Nevertheless, in this case it was not too much work or an intertwined discussion as in another case on NKT where I finally didn’t delete the comments based on the complexity of the discussion and the amount of work the commentator contributed in others to engage.
243

johnlavers on December 7, 2018 at 7:08 pm
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rob and especially mary have engaged in calling christine chandler a paranoid delusional several times that i have seen. this is not an admoninen attack, it is noting the impropriety being engaged in by dharma people, or pseudo dharma people. i could name other unethical behaviors, such as mary shows up on ethical teachers sites and denounces their lineages or teachings with no supporting facts.

i truly hope she does some good with her outing sogyal but don’t forget she was instrumental in bringing him to the uk and setting him up as a teacher. moreover her and her allies on the misnamed open buddhism shut down every tlak about other sex criminal such as trungpa, and even criticism of kalu rinpoche’s indifference to sex complaints.

they want to get sogyal but still hang on the how cool it was at samaye ling, and how special they were to be there.
244

Tenzin on February 6, 2024 at 3:13 pm
Reply

Here is an article by Damchö Diana Finnegan on “Samaya as Symbiotic Relationship” – about the guru–disciple bond in Vajrayana Buddhism, and how to navigate it in healthful, beneficial ways.

https://www.lionsroar.com/samaya-as-symbiotic-relationship/

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